Indomitus novel

Shield-Captain · July 30, 2020

Anything I could say would just be a repeat of what's already been stated. The necrons are *far* more interesting than the Space Marines, who instead of coming across as super-soldiers in an unwinnable war sound like a bunch of parentless toddlers. The Judiciar is the best and that's only because he doesn't need to be anything other than the edge of his executioner blade. He talks too much for a character who is supposed to have taken a vow of silence though.

The Necrons are compelling but only in the sense that you have a force that is lorded over by a megalomaniac and a bunch of his underlings are teying to keep him from getting them all disintegrated by the bigger boss. The worldbuilding for the Necrons (the destroyers in particular) is really good though.

I give it a solid 4.5/10

Edited July 30, 2020 by Shield-Captain

Lord_Caerolion · July 30, 2020

The Judiciar is supposed to only be silent on the battlefield though. Unless he's also talking on the battlefield too.

StrangerOrders · July 30, 2020

The Judiciar is supposed to only be silent on the battlefield though. Unless he's also talking on the battlefield too.

He is hilariously enough more like a Khorne Berzerker in battle and has... erm... nothing I can really point to as potential for the Chaplaincy other than raw fanaticism. Which doesn't seem like the ideal given that the only force I can think of that didn't include anything other than that in the job description were the WB...

He literally has to be looked after like at toddler by the officers and Captains, he wanders off too deep into enemy lines, into corridors he might get the sword snagged into and has the political instincts of a squirrel along with the tact of a squirrel on meth. Which wouldn't be too bad, BL writers stray into this with badly written novices on occasion, the problem is that the novel makes note of this repeatedly.

That he spends his time off the battlefield needling people and astartes looking for a reaction, looking for flaws in others and preaching platitudes that no one really needed to hear leaves you a wee bit confused as to how he is supposed to pick up the other skills of a Chaplain.

Frankly he comes across more like a poorly written Asmodei than a UM, much less one intended to be a Chaplain.

Thats sort of a running theme really, none of the characters show any UM-y-ness. Only one of them has a solid head for logistics, they literally need to be instructed how to do basic political thinking (note: Not in the sense of grasping Mortals, in the sense of even showing the aptitude of the average (clumsy) Astartes). And it is a running joke that one guy literally just got assigned to the fleet to keep the others from running the operation into the ground.

They are also meant to be the Fourth Company, so they aren't even barely-managed Greyshields. Marneus and Guilliman put this guy and his command cadre together and it shows a weirdly OOC moment for two of the most political-adept figures in the Imperium.

The saddest thing? Their behavior echoes that really iffy revolt Calgar puts down in the DI novel, right down to the exact sort of incompetence Marneus was offended to find in levies of Macragge. How he went on to appoint them to represent the fourth is confusing as heck.

Wait a sec, I think Ventris might be dead then.

Edited July 31, 2020 by StrangerOrders

Lord_Caerolion · July 31, 2020

...Yeah, definitely giving this one a miss...

StrangerOrders · July 31, 2020

...Yeah, definitely giving this one a miss...

Is it odd that I would say to give it a shot?

Idk, I'm pretty open about the fact that I do not always trust my own opinion to have much more worth than what I think on a subject. Give it a read if you find anything interesting in the premise, you might come out liking it much more than I did.

Heck, I liked the FM Primarch Book and that is a pretty divisive stance, so my dislike might actually be an indicator that is good!

Although I grant you that following that logic might indicate that the Necron bits are bad. :sweat:

I will say that beyond the Necron stuff, which might be revisited later on elsewhere, I did not sense anything in this book which struck me as 'essential' reading for grasping any of the new stuff or plot developments beyond the Crypteks having something like Guildmasters and the Silent King not having the most competent family tree in the epochs (idk though, maybe this guy was just the black sheep).

So its very much optional either way.

I'm kinda hoping Haley does do a quick once-over on the new units come Dawn of Fire though (I think that's its name?) since I did not come out with that strong a grasp on anything (and actively confused as to why there are either two 4th Company Captains or the UMs embraced Necromancy to rez Ventris given the Captain's rank here or why the UMs had SS to big for them to wield millennia before Primaris existed).

Edited July 31, 2020 by StrangerOrders

Lucerne · July 31, 2020

The Judiciar is supposed to only be silent on the battlefield though. Unless he's also talking on the battlefield too.

He is hilariously enough more like a Khorne Berzerker in battle and has... erm... nothing I can really point to as potential for the Chaplaincy other than raw fanaticism. Which doesn't seem like the ideal given that the only force I can think of that didn't include anything other than that in the job description were the WB...

He literally has to be looked after like at toddler by the officers and Captains, he wanders off too deep into enemy lines, into corridors he might get the sword snagged into and has the political instincts of a squirrel along with the tact of a squirrel on meth. Which wouldn't be too bad, BL writers stray into this with badly written novices on occasion, the problem is that the novel makes note of this repeatedly.

That he spends his time off the battlefield needling people and astartes looking for a reaction, looking for flaws in others and preaching platitudes that no one really needed to hear leaves you a wee bit confused as to how he is supposed to pick up the other skills of a Chaplain.

Frankly he comes across more like a poorly written Asmodei than a UM, much less one intended to be a Chaplain.

Thats sort of a running theme really, none of the characters show any UM-y-ness. Only one of them has a solid head for logistics, they literally need to be instructed how to do basic political thinking (note: Not in the sense of grasping Mortals, in the sense of even showing the aptitude of the average (clumsy) Astartes). And it is a running joke that one guy literally just got assigned to the fleet to keep the others from running the operation into the ground.

They are also meant to be the Fourth Company, so they aren't even barely-managed Greyshields. Marneus and Guilliman put this guy and his command cadre together and it shows a weirdly OOC moment for two of the most political-adept figures in the Imperium.

The saddest thing? Their behavior echoes that really iffy revolt Calgar puts down in the DI novel, right down to the exact sort of incompetence Marneus was offended to find in levies of Macragge. How he went on to appoint them to represent the fourth is confusing as heck.

Wait a sec, I think Ventris might be dead then.

I mean, I'm perfectly okay with this portrayal of Ultramarines and Primaris- and honestly, Marneus and Bobby G would put their inept son in charge of a disposable fleet- after all nepotism isn't just for Necrons. :biggrin.:

That said, the Quintus fleet seems implied to be where the Ultras send the, ah, works in progress and everyone agrees it's a disaster. The word "cursed" is used.

There was a request for a positive review: I liked it as a "skim it once and move on" sort of novel, but then I'm not exactly the biggest Ultramarines fan in the first place. Necron bickering got old a while back, but isn't too bad to read here.

If you liked the plotlines of Dawn of War Soulstorm as a black comedy, you'll get a few laughs out of the Ultramarines and Necrons having an intellectual cripple fight here.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Lucerne

StrangerOrders · July 31, 2020

The Judiciar is supposed to only be silent on the battlefield though. Unless he's also talking on the battlefield too.

He is hilariously enough more like a Khorne Berzerker in battle and has... erm... nothing I can really point to as potential for the Chaplaincy other than raw fanaticism. Which doesn't seem like the ideal given that the only force I can think of that didn't include anything other than that in the job description were the WB...

He literally has to be looked after like at toddler by the officers and Captains, he wanders off too deep into enemy lines, into corridors he might get the sword snagged into and has the political instincts of a squirrel along with the tact of a squirrel on meth. Which wouldn't be too bad, BL writers stray into this with badly written novices on occasion, the problem is that the novel makes note of this repeatedly.

That he spends his time off the battlefield needling people and astartes looking for a reaction, looking for flaws in others and preaching platitudes that no one really needed to hear leaves you a wee bit confused as to how he is supposed to pick up the other skills of a Chaplain.

Frankly he comes across more like a poorly written Asmodei than a UM, much less one intended to be a Chaplain.

Thats sort of a running theme really, none of the characters show any UM-y-ness. Only one of them has a solid head for logistics, they literally need to be instructed how to do basic political thinking (note: Not in the sense of grasping Mortals, in the sense of even showing the aptitude of the average (clumsy) Astartes). And it is a running joke that one guy literally just got assigned to the fleet to keep the others from running the operation into the ground.

They are also meant to be the Fourth Company, so they aren't even barely-managed Greyshields. Marneus and Guilliman put this guy and his command cadre together and it shows a weirdly OOC moment for two of the most political-adept figures in the Imperium.

The saddest thing? Their behavior echoes that really iffy revolt Calgar puts down in the DI novel, right down to the exact sort of incompetence Marneus was offended to find in levies of Macragge. How he went on to appoint them to represent the fourth is confusing as heck.

Wait a sec, I think Ventris might be dead then.

I mean, I'm perfectly okay with this portrayal of Ultramarines and Primaris- and honestly, Marneus and Bobby G would put their inept son in charge of a disposable fleet- after all nepotism isn't just for Necrons.

That said, the Quintus fleet seems implied to be where the Ultras send the, ah, works in progress and everyone agrees it's a disaster. The word "cursed" is used.

There was a request for a positive review: I liked it as a "skim it once and move on" sort of novel, but then I'm not exactly the biggest Ultramarines fan in the first place. Necron bickering got old a while back, but isn't too bad to read here.

If you liked the plotlines of Dawn of War Soulstorm as a black comedy, you'll get a few laughs out of the Ultramarines and Necrons having an intellectual cripple fight here.

Good point, if you hate the UM and Guilliman then this book works in the same way the really bad chaos novels work.

Want to see a faction you hate be dragged through the mud, strip them of their merits and give them a nonsensical characterization? Then it really really works. It reads like something that Highlord who hated Guilliman and believed all Astartes were psychotic brutes (as opposed to somewhat competent psychopaths) would commission.

Also, did you read the written or audio version? I imagine the written one has to be more tolerable.

I also confess that it bugs me, really bugs me when an author goes completely against characterization. Its why I usually dont rate MacNeill very highly (still cheesed off over what he did to the Wolves (both varieties) and EC).

But I have to admit that viewed as a deliberate mockery it is much better, but the issue there for me is that I really dont enjoy seeing characters treated badly. I might hate Morty as a character but that doesnt mean I want him written poorly.

The Ventris thing is also really bugging me now that I noticed, Thorpe is supposed to be the loremaster.

Edited July 31, 2020 by StrangerOrders

Lucerne · July 31, 2020

The Judiciar is supposed to only be silent on the battlefield though. Unless he's also talking on the battlefield too.

He is hilariously enough more like a Khorne Berzerker in battle and has... erm... nothing I can really point to as potential for the Chaplaincy other than raw fanaticism. Which doesn't seem like the ideal given that the only force I can think of that didn't include anything other than that in the job description were the WB...

He literally has to be looked after like at toddler by the officers and Captains, he wanders off too deep into enemy lines, into corridors he might get the sword snagged into and has the political instincts of a squirrel along with the tact of a squirrel on meth. Which wouldn't be too bad, BL writers stray into this with badly written novices on occasion, the problem is that the novel makes note of this repeatedly.

That he spends his time off the battlefield needling people and astartes looking for a reaction, looking for flaws in others and preaching platitudes that no one really needed to hear leaves you a wee bit confused as to how he is supposed to pick up the other skills of a Chaplain.

Frankly he comes across more like a poorly written Asmodei than a UM, much less one intended to be a Chaplain.

Thats sort of a running theme really, none of the characters show any UM-y-ness. Only one of them has a solid head for logistics, they literally need to be instructed how to do basic political thinking (note: Not in the sense of grasping Mortals, in the sense of even showing the aptitude of the average (clumsy) Astartes). And it is a running joke that one guy literally just got assigned to the fleet to keep the others from running the operation into the ground.

They are also meant to be the Fourth Company, so they aren't even barely-managed Greyshields. Marneus and Guilliman put this guy and his command cadre together and it shows a weirdly OOC moment for two of the most political-adept figures in the Imperium.

The saddest thing? Their behavior echoes that really iffy revolt Calgar puts down in the DI novel, right down to the exact sort of incompetence Marneus was offended to find in levies of Macragge. How he went on to appoint them to represent the fourth is confusing as heck.

Wait a sec, I think Ventris might be dead then.

I mean, I'm perfectly okay with this portrayal of Ultramarines and Primaris- and honestly, Marneus and Bobby G would put their inept son in charge of a disposable fleet- after all nepotism isn't just for Necrons.

That said, the Quintus fleet seems implied to be where the Ultras send the, ah, works in progress and everyone agrees it's a disaster. The word "cursed" is used.

There was a request for a positive review: I liked it as a "skim it once and move on" sort of novel, but then I'm not exactly the biggest Ultramarines fan in the first place. Necron bickering got old a while back, but isn't too bad to read here.

If you liked the plotlines of Dawn of War Soulstorm as a black comedy, you'll get a few laughs out of the Ultramarines and Necrons having an intellectual cripple fight here.

Good point, if you hate the UM and Guilliman then this book works in the same way the really bad chaos novels work.

Want to see a faction you hate be dragged through the mud, strip them of their merits and give them a nonsensical characterization? Then it really really works. It reads like something that Highlord who hated Guilliman and believed all Astartes were psychotic brutes (as opposed to somewhat competent psychopaths) would commission.

Also, did you read the written or audio version? I imagine the written one has to be more tolerable.

I also confess that it bugs me, really bugs me when an author goes completely against characterization. Its why I usually dont rate MacNeill very highly (still cheesed off over what he did to the Wolves (both varieties) and EC).

But I have to admit that viewed as a deliberate mockery it is much better, but the issue there for me is that I really dont enjoy seeing characters treated badly. I might hate Morty as a character but that doesnt mean I want him written poorly.

The Ventris thing is also really bugging me now that I noticed, Thorpe is supposed to be the loremaster.

Written

StrangerOrders · July 31, 2020

The Judiciar is supposed to only be silent on the battlefield though. Unless he's also talking on the battlefield too.

He is hilariously enough more like a Khorne Berzerker in battle and has... erm... nothing I can really point to as potential for the Chaplaincy other than raw fanaticism. Which doesn't seem like the ideal given that the only force I can think of that didn't include anything other than that in the job description were the WB...

He literally has to be looked after like at toddler by the officers and Captains, he wanders off too deep into enemy lines, into corridors he might get the sword snagged into and has the political instincts of a squirrel along with the tact of a squirrel on meth. Which wouldn't be too bad, BL writers stray into this with badly written novices on occasion, the problem is that the novel makes note of this repeatedly.

That he spends his time off the battlefield needling people and astartes looking for a reaction, looking for flaws in others and preaching platitudes that no one really needed to hear leaves you a wee bit confused as to how he is supposed to pick up the other skills of a Chaplain.

Frankly he comes across more like a poorly written Asmodei than a UM, much less one intended to be a Chaplain.

Thats sort of a running theme really, none of the characters show any UM-y-ness. Only one of them has a solid head for logistics, they literally need to be instructed how to do basic political thinking (note: Not in the sense of grasping Mortals, in the sense of even showing the aptitude of the average (clumsy) Astartes). And it is a running joke that one guy literally just got assigned to the fleet to keep the others from running the operation into the ground.

They are also meant to be the Fourth Company, so they aren't even barely-managed Greyshields. Marneus and Guilliman put this guy and his command cadre together and it shows a weirdly OOC moment for two of the most political-adept figures in the Imperium.

The saddest thing? Their behavior echoes that really iffy revolt Calgar puts down in the DI novel, right down to the exact sort of incompetence Marneus was offended to find in levies of Macragge. How he went on to appoint them to represent the fourth is confusing as heck.

Wait a sec, I think Ventris might be dead then.

I mean, I'm perfectly okay with this portrayal of Ultramarines and Primaris- and honestly, Marneus and Bobby G would put their inept son in charge of a disposable fleet- after all nepotism isn't just for Necrons.

That said, the Quintus fleet seems implied to be where the Ultras send the, ah, works in progress and everyone agrees it's a disaster. The word "cursed" is used.

There was a request for a positive review: I liked it as a "skim it once and move on" sort of novel, but then I'm not exactly the biggest Ultramarines fan in the first place. Necron bickering got old a while back, but isn't too bad to read here.

If you liked the plotlines of Dawn of War Soulstorm as a black comedy, you'll get a few laughs out of the Ultramarines and Necrons having an intellectual cripple fight here.

Good point, if you hate the UM and Guilliman then this book works in the same way the really bad chaos novels work.

Want to see a faction you hate be dragged through the mud, strip them of their merits and give them a nonsensical characterization? Then it really really works. It reads like something that Highlord who hated Guilliman and believed all Astartes were psychotic brutes (as opposed to somewhat competent psychopaths) would commission.

Also, did you read the written or audio version? I imagine the written one has to be more tolerable.

I also confess that it bugs me, really bugs me when an author goes completely against characterization. Its why I usually dont rate MacNeill very highly (still cheesed off over what he did to the Wolves (both varieties) and EC).

But I have to admit that viewed as a deliberate mockery it is much better, but the issue there for me is that I really dont enjoy seeing characters treated badly. I might hate Morty as a character but that doesnt mean I want him written poorly.

The Ventris thing is also really bugging me now that I noticed, Thorpe is supposed to be the loremaster.

Written

In the sense of comedic enjoyment I highly recommend it.

The Overlord's voice is extremely high-pitched and whiny for example, its kind of hilarious. Although you will be occasionally deafened by radio sound-effects (Including during Necron chapters oddly enough).

caladancid · July 31, 2020

If that's where we are going with this then I recommend it also. If you want to read a really bad novel that will make you wonder if the author has an actual gripe with Ultramarines, and doesn't really care for Necrons either- then this is a 10/10 must purchase.

Kelborn · July 31, 2020

Then it's a must buy for me. :P

Knockagh · July 31, 2020

Can’t believe I’m reading people saying they are going to buy this because the reviews here are so bad. I mean we all know these model / new edition books are awful. The authors simply can’t be directed so much and expected to turn out something that has quality to it. It’s not how authors work, or anyone creative.

I find it odd, because GW are bound to know this. They also must realise that people who don’t normally buy BL fiction might buy this. Well what a way to put people off buying any future books. It’s a marketing disaster. Putting out the worst of your product for potentially your biggest audience.

Kelborn · July 31, 2020

Keep in mind that writing on a forum might be difficult to display sarcasm as long as one's avoiding a "beware irony/ sarcasm" note, eh. ;)

I bought it before this thread went up. Gonna read it nonetheless, 'cause why not. I bought it, I'll read it. Even if it's as "trashy" as you guys state it, I at least can pay some respect to Gav for writing it by reading it myself.

Either I'll find something I'm enjoying or not, who knows.

For example, I simply love Soul Wars. It's like Indomitus in presenting new models, etc. but it was well executed.

I don't dare to judge upon GWs decisions. In the end, someone approved it. It is what it is. Only by giving feedback via medias like Amazon or Goodread, do companies and authors get a taste of how their product was received. Maybe they'll learn for the next time. Or maybe not, - again - who knows? :wacko.:

byrd9999 · July 31, 2020

Can’t believe I’m reading people saying they are going to buy this because the reviews here are so bad. I mean we all know these model / new edition books are awful. The authors simply can’t be directed so much and expected to turn out something that has quality to it. It’s not how authors work, or anyone creative.

I find it odd, because GW are bound to know this. They also must realise that people who don’t normally buy BL fiction might buy this. Well what a way to put people off buying any future books. It’s a marketing disaster. Putting out the worst of your product for potentially your biggest audience.

I would disagree that new edition books have to be bad. I think Guy Haley's Dark Imperium is an excellent book.

However, reading Gav's Track of Words interview gives an insight into the "creative" process, where basically a bunch of ideas he had to include got bolted together in an awkward way. Trying to play against stereotype (competent, logical Ultramarines) doesn't really work if it just creates more cliches (incompetent, illogical Ultramarines).

Someone described Gav's writing as "utilitarian" earlier in the thread, and I guess the inspiration was running a bit dry for this project.

caladancid · July 31, 2020

Can’t believe I’m reading people saying they are going to buy this because the reviews here are so bad. I mean we all know these model / new edition books are awful. The authors simply can’t be directed so much and expected to turn out something that has quality to it. It’s not how authors work, or anyone creative.

I find it odd, because GW are bound to know this. They also must realise that people who don’t normally buy BL fiction might buy this. Well what a way to put people off buying any future books. It’s a marketing disaster. Putting out the worst of your product for potentially your biggest audience.

Keep in mind that writing on a forum might be difficult to display sarcasm as long as one's avoiding a "beware irony/ sarcasm" note, eh.

I bought it before this thread went up. Gonna read it nonetheless, 'cause why not. I bought it, I'll read it. Even if it's as "trashy" as you guys state it, I at least can pay some respect to Gav for writing it by reading it myself.

Either I'll find something I'm enjoying or not, who knows.

For example, I simply love Soul Wars. It's like Indomitus in presenting new models, etc. but it was well executed.

I don't dare to judge upon GWs decisions. In the end, someone approved it. It is what it is. Only by giving feedback via medias like Amazon or Goodread, do companies and authors get a taste of how their product was received. Maybe they'll learn for the next time. Or maybe not, - again - who knows?

Yes my post at least was definitely not ACTUAL encouragement to buy the novel.

Tyriks · July 31, 2020

At this point, I just want to hear at least somebody giving this a positive review. I'm almost tempted to give it a try myself, just because I'm floored by the poor reception so far and feel an urge to see for myself. But with my schedule as full as it is, that's not a good idea right now, if ever.

I mean, I don't hate it so far. It's less pointless so far than Dark Imperium was. The Necron world building and background is really interesting so far (I think I'm 40% through). The marines would make a lot more sense if they weren't from the same chapter. It's not the best book BL has made by a long shot, but I have definitely read worse, too.

StrangerOrders · July 31, 2020

Just thought of something really BIG that this novel establishes.

Well, establishes is the wrong word since it has been hinted at before but this is the first time its outright said without any ambiguity.

So the novel mentions that some priests can, through raw fervor, resist the effects of Blackstone for a time.

What is very interesting however is that the Necron Plasmancer outright confirms that there is something very weird about Astartes souls, specifically that they are not only near-impervious (relatively, its mentioned that it can start fatiguing them in the span it would reduce a human into a potato) but that they can actually form isles of 'soul-y-ness' that actively push back the soul-killing effect of Null-fields. She later also notes that the 'energy' of both their souls and brains doesnt look right (interestingly, it seems that the Necrons can literally use emotions as power sources at times.

Its been said before in other books that Astartes souls look weird to Astropaths, that there is something about Gene-Seed that kills Blanks when implantation is attempted which might be psychic and even that some behavioural traits seem somehow genetic separate of Indoctrination. We have even seen that while their psychic powers in Librarians are crushed, they aren't as impaired as humans would be (which I had previously personally thought was just Indoctrination).

But this is the first time I believe it is outright said that there is something strange about Astartes souls, since they can actively mess with Blackstone null-fields with their mere presence.

DarkChaplain · July 31, 2020

The emotions-as-power thingy was actually established as far back as Pharos, and the Scythes stories. While it wasn't explicitly confirmed in the Heresy itself, the Pharos is Necron-tech, and it uses emotional/psychic resonances to literally act as a teleportal device.

I wonder how Grey Knights would do when confronted with that whole Blackstone topic - both physically and psychically, but also structurally as a fighting force, considering how much they rely on their networks.

StrangerOrders · July 31, 2020

The emotions-as-power thingy was actually established as far back as Pharos, and the Scythes stories. While it wasn't explicitly confirmed in the Heresy itself, the Pharos is Necron-tech, and it uses emotional/psychic resonances to literally act as a teleportal device.

I wonder how Grey Knights would do when confronted with that whole Blackstone topic - both physically and psychically, but also structurally as a fighting force, considering how much they rely on their networks.

Well... if the Vaults of Terra and their experiences fighting beside the Sisters of Silence can be trusted?

Apparently a Psychic Space Marine without Psychic Powers pretty quickly switches to punching/stabbing things to death.

Its really interesting that the squad barely reacts too, Valerian just notes that they were wrongfooted for like a milisecond before resorting to more conventional fighting. Its noted that they had exceptional coherency so I am not sure if the Sisters accidentally knocked down their network or not.

Although the thing is that we dont know how the two scale per power density, just radius. The Sisters werent trying to impair the Knights and we know that Oblivion Knights like Aleya can Harness and project their field like a gun at a specific target with controlled potency (someone irks her so she gives flicks a hand and sends them reeling). So it is hard to compare.

Granted Blanks are just the least consistent thing between authors, so who knows.

General Strike · August 3, 2020

I think the Judiciar would be more interesting if it was just another branch of the reclusiarchy rather than a novice. Having someone who prods and pushes people to see if they have heretical or renegade tendencies is way more interesting of a position. They're fanatics who see any doubt as a sign of a heretic, and look for any reason to engage the "enemy".