Chapter Tactic Nerf

[AnImA8]

For those of you who hadn’t seen it yet, they leaked the chapter tactics page in the new SM codex, and it’s looking like the Sallies Chapter Tactic now only applies a reroll to wound per unit instead of a reroll to hit and to wound. I really don’t understand for the life of me why they felt the need to do this to one of the weaker SM chapters, but it’s pretty disheartening to say the least. I’m trying to think of a way to work around this but it really doesn’t change the fact that our tactic promotes an MSU play style, and this change just makes us worse at that play style.

 

I’m hoping someone here might know of an upside or has some good news about Sallies, or maybe can think of a justification for why GW would do this, but I suppose it’s hard to say until the codex and our new supplement drops.

[CaptainMarsh]

As with everything, we should wait for a clearer, fuller picture of all the rules changes before we get too despondent. It is vexing though.

[Minsc]

I'm probably in the minority here, but in my opinion, we (both Salamanders but also Space Marines in general) currently have to many army-wide rules: 
- +1 Attack on the first round of combat.
- Ignoring AP1.
- Re-rolling one to-hit roll every time we shoot/fight.
- Re-rolling one to-wound roll every time we shoot/fight.
- Re-rolling failed morale tests, something you can't even do with CP in 9th.
- +1 AP on various weapons depending on Doctrine.
- +1 to wound on flamer/melta-weapons during Tactical Doctrine.

I actually """forget""" to use Doctrines when I play, because frankly I don't feel that I need them.
I wouldn't be a bit mad if they went away and I'm sure we would still do absolutely fine.

Instead it looks like Master Artisans take a hit, which is fine because maybe now I'll start "remembering" the Doctrines instead.

With that said, I'll wait for a full release and not some CSI enhanced-blurry picture of the page with the chapter tactics before I make my final judgement.

TLDR: We'll be fine.
 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Minsc

[Debauchery101]

I honestly expected this. Especially when combined with stuff like venerable dreads and cheaper heavy weapons for marines as well as the game moving to a small scale engagement.

 

The wound mechanic was always the more valuable part so I'm glad they didn't give us just the hit reroll

Edited July 26, 2020 by Debauchery101

[SirVulkan]

It sucks because judging from the leaked sheet we were nerfed the hardest.  We better get some love in other areas.  Also, you can only bring 1 captain per detachment now so you have to bring a patrol if you want vulkan and adrax.  

 

All that said, ill take the wound reroll.  It is easy enough to get rerolls to hit, but this definitely puts the nail in the coffin for my tac squads with a single lascannon.

 

This will force me to take vulkan and move him along side my eradicators.  Maybe we will get our primarch???  I can only dream.

[Captain Jer'ra]

You know a thought just occurred to me that actually has me excited - with Blood Angels in the new Codex, does this mean we finally get Heavy Flamers in Tactical Squads???

 

Honestly the CT nerf doesn't worry me too much, there are enough ways to get a re-roll to hit, the few times I played I found the re-roll to wound arguably the most important part of it. Keeping that and the -1AP counting as 0AP is keeping the better part of our CT in my eyes. 

[HighMarshalAmp]

I've mostly run Salamanders as Lascannon squads to support my Deathwatch.

You don't really need to re-roll a wound with a Lascannon but the hits... that hurts.

Might finally give me the incentive to get more Sallies though.

You know a thought just occurred to me that actually has me excited - with Blood Angels in the new Codex, does this mean we finally get Heavy Flamers in Tactical Squads???

I'd love that.

But what if Tac Marines go to Legends in 10th?

[tychobi]

Big nerf. Odd one too. Was nice to have a space marine faction that did not need to castle. Frustratingly similar to many design choices made that stifle creative non standard playstyles and builds. Heck even the models are built to be difficult to kitbash and customize these days. Luckily their opposition to my creativity only makes it stronger! By hobby knife and crazy glue I swear to kitbash and modify until the end of my extended childhood. Amen.

[Bokkemarine]

For those of you who hadn’t seen it yet, they leaked the chapter tactics page in the new SM codex, and it’s looking like the Sallies Chapter Tactic now only applies a reroll to wound per unit instead of a reroll to hit and to wound. I really don’t understand for the life of me why they felt the need to do this to one of the weaker SM chapters, but it’s pretty disheartening to say the least. I’m trying to think of a way to work around this but it really doesn’t change the fact that our tactic promotes an MSU play style, and this change just makes us worse at that play style.

 

I’m hoping someone here might know of an upside or has some good news about Sallies, or maybe can think of a justification for why GW would do this, but I suppose it’s hard to say until the codex and our new supplement drops.

 

Say wut? Salamanders are top tier in 9th edition! The could realy use a nerf and a big 1 to. 15 aggressors, 9 eliminators and vulcan, in combination with the doctrines you have +1 to wound, re-roll hits AND wounds. Most of the army is 3W T5. a unit with 5 aggressors can put out 120 ap-1 flamer shots, with strats. So you have an army that is hard to kill, re-rolls everything, shoots hard, you want to think twice if you want to assault them.

 

So Salamanders are defenetly NOT one of the weaker chapters.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I'm probably in the minority here, but in my opinion, we (both Salamanders but also Space Marines in general) currently have to many army-wide rules: 

- +1 Attack on the first round of combat.

- Ignoring AP1.

- Re-rolling one to-hit roll every time we shoot/fight.

- Re-rolling one to-wound roll every time we shoot/fight.

- Re-rolling failed morale tests, something you can't even do with CP in 9th.

- +1 AP on various weapons depending on Doctrine.

- +1 to wound on flamer/melta-weapons during Tactical Doctrine.

 

 

 

Dude, that's nothing.  Word Bearers can reroll failed morale tests.  

[Minsc]

 

I'm probably in the minority here, but in my opinion, we (both Salamanders but also Space Marines in general) currently have to many army-wide rules: 

- +1 Attack on the first round of combat.

- Ignoring AP1.

- Re-rolling one to-hit roll every time we shoot/fight.

- Re-rolling one to-wound roll every time we shoot/fight.

- Re-rolling failed morale tests, something you can't even do with CP in 9th.

- +1 AP on various weapons depending on Doctrine.

- +1 to wound on flamer/melta-weapons during Tactical Doctrine.

 

 

 

Dude, that's nothing.  Word Bearers can reroll failed morale tests.  

 

They do get the Chaos version of +1 attack on the first round of combat and Bolter Discipline* too.

 

(*Which I forgot to put in the list. Like I said, to many rules. :P )

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Minsc

[RyanT2112]

For those of you who hadn’t seen it yet, they leaked the chapter tactics page in the new SM codex, and it’s looking like the Sallies Chapter Tactic now only applies a reroll to wound per unit instead of a reroll to hit and to wound. I really don’t understand for the life of me why they felt the need to do this to one of the weaker SM chapters, but it’s pretty disheartening to say the least. I’m trying to think of a way to work around this but it really doesn’t change the fact that our tactic promotes an MSU play style, and this change just makes us worse at that play style.

 

I’m hoping someone here might know of an upside or has some good news about Sallies, or maybe can think of a justification for why GW would do this, but I suppose it’s hard to say until the codex and our new supplement drops.

As someone who has recently played against a Salamanders list in 9th edition with my Blood Angels. I can tell you getting hit with an extra Thunder Hammer on my Primaris Captain, then an extra wound as well... Well actually in NEARLY every unit he scored an extra hit every time it shot or fought. It was excessive. We were balanced, I made use of his tactical errors, but because of the trait he literally caused numerous more hits than is logical. Meanwhile me hitting him with Assault Intercessors bounced off a brick wall. Anything AP-1 was useless. Only Stalker Bolt Rifles would've been useful. Not something you'd typically see from a Blood Angel.

 

But anyways, having him land hit after hit on every single unit without character support, then wounding as well, it was a bit much.

 

Turn 1 I deleted his Repulsor Executioner and his Flamestorm Aggressors with a Turn 1 DC charge, with Lemartes, and a Libby Dread (Smaller board meant he was hiding completely LoS behind obscurring terrain, but because of that he was closer than he realized to my DC who had rolled a 6 on the pre-game move/advance strategem.... so 19 inch pre-game move, followed by a 12 inch move....) - Anyways I deleted over 500 pts of his army and his durability, being similar to mine felt good. Him being tougher vs my intercessors felt right. Him being able to land nearly every important hit, every single time, felt a bit unbalanced, without character support.

[RyanT2112]

Big nerf. Odd one too. Was nice to have a space marine faction that did not need to castle. Frustratingly similar to many design choices made that stifle creative non standard playstyles and builds. Heck even the models are built to be difficult to kitbash and customize these days. Luckily their opposition to my creativity only makes it stronger! By hobby knife and crazy glue I swear to kitbash and modify until the end of my extended childhood. Amen.

No "Space Marines" in 9th edition will want to castle. The edition focuses a lot more on getting out and onto objectives. Mobility and balanced lists to win games are more likely.

 

For the -first- time ever I even think Phobos units may see a stronger presence. Infiltrators only 120 pts vs 100 for Intercessors and wounding anything on 6s to hit seem good. In addition being able to project a Phobos Captain aura in each squad has made them interesting.... Considering that Reserves are more important than ever... denying 12" reserve bubble is huge. Smoke Grenades also huge if you just need to hold an objective and you don't have dense terrain -1 to hit...

You know a thought just occurred to me that actually has me excited - with Blood Angels in the new Codex, does this mean we finally get Heavy Flamers in Tactical Squads???

 

Honestly the CT nerf doesn't worry me too much, there are enough ways to get a re-roll to hit, the few times I played I found the re-roll to wound arguably the most important part of it. Keeping that and the -1AP counting as 0AP is keeping the better part of our CT in my eyes. 

Ignoring AP-1 and then standing in cover is just insanely durable. Coupling that with a 6+ FNP bubble and you've got an anchor.

[Dracos]

I think the nerf is fair. I used Master Artisan all the time and it was OP. There's a lot about 9e that favors Sallies and latest tournament results are good indicator of it.

 

That said, no one especially who is use to having to playtheir Chapter vanilla for 20 years id going to have sympathy for Blood Angels with their cornucopia of special units, rules and characters. Sorry man wrong sub-forum for that. 

[Charlo]

Considering the easy availability of massed rerolls to marines, it's not that big a deal IMO.

[RyanT2112]

I think the nerf is fair. I used Master Artisan all the time and it was OP. There's a lot about 9e that favors Sallies and latest tournament results are good indicator of it.

 

That said, no one especially who is use to having to playtheir Chapter vanilla for 20 years id going to have sympathy for Blood Angels with their cornucopia of special units, rules and characters. Sorry man wrong sub-forum for that. 

I'm not here to complain whatsoever. It was an amazing battle! But it was crystal clear that the amount of free re-rolls tilted the game where tactical advantage was clear on my end. So many cases of extra damage on literally every turn of the game. There is a reason this nerf is happening - it is clear by the results. But having seen it against me I got to see what it felt like to watch high powered hits come through that would normally not be there. Its one thing to watch a battle report but its another to experience it knowing you would have about 10%-15% more models on the table against nearly any other marine faction.

[Dracos]

I understand and don’t disagree that the Sallies will be fine. It actually has more effect on DIY Chapters that don’t get access to all the special rules, relics, and especially Special Characters a Chapter like Blood Angels get.

 

I think Master Artisan is now definitely inferior to a Chapter wide +1 to wound. Every unit every model all versus one a single reroll to wound per unit? Pretty obvious which Chapter has the non-tactical edge where as before at least it was still debatable. Add all the Blood Angel bennies and ...

 

... honestly we know from Raven Guard and Iron Hands how easy it is to nerf a Chapter if they synergize too well with a stratagem or unit or two. Whereas Nerfing the Chapter Tactic is much harder. You can hit it hard in the Super Doctrine but you have to get pretty specific otherwise. Upcoming Raven Guard is an example of that I don’t understand yet (18 in he s really?) but like I e said elsewhere going to hope it makes sense after Codexes and new Supplements come out.

[Debauchery101]

Honestly the Salamanders tactics are sub par compared to stealthy and long range marksman. 9/10 Salamanders players use successor rules like Long range marksman and stealthy.

[Riddlesworth]

The ignoring -1 comes up far more often than I thought it would having played against a salamander opponents. Auto bolt rifles are becoming very popular and elven in tactical doctrine salamanders are harder to chew through.

 

Given that the boards are smaller and action is forced into the middle pto fight over objectives, the speed disadvantage they seemed to have in 8th is not as pronounced. Captains and chapter masters are still good picks. So are lts.

 

One thing that struck me was outside of the flamer/melta goodness, just how good the strats were. +1 to wound on a stick is bonkers when you can use it in the fight and shooting phase. So is the overwatch/HI strat.

 

If you were building your army around a couple of strats and didn't want to have 11 inch flamers, salamanders are still pretty brutal

[Medicinal Carrots]

Honestly the Salamanders tactics are sub par compared to stealthy and long range marksman. 9/10 Salamanders players use successor rules like Long range marksman and stealthy.

Master Artisans and Stealthy is the typical successor go to for max cheese. Salamander strats are great, and the super doctrine can be really good with the right units.

 

I do think Stealthy and Long Range Marksman took a hit in the move to 9th. With people wanting to get up close more, both are still good, but lose some luster. The cap on -1 to hit nerfs Stealthy a bit too. I still think Stealthy is top tier, but it's no longer an auto-include. I still expect lots of Master Artisans and Stealthy, but I wouldn't be surprised to see straight Salamanders doing well too.

[sal of manders]

 

Honestly the Salamanders tactics are sub par compared to stealthy and long range marksman. 9/10 Salamanders players use successor rules like Long range marksman and stealthy.

Master Artisans and Stealthy is the typical successor go to for max cheese. Salamander strats are great, and the super doctrine can be really good with the right units.

 

I do think Stealthy and Long Range Marksman took a hit in the move to 9th. With people wanting to get up close more, both are still good, but lose some luster. The cap on -1 to hit nerfs Stealthy a bit too. I still think Stealthy is top tier, but it's no longer an auto-include. I still expect lots of Master Artisans and Stealthy, but I wouldn't be surprised to see straight Salamanders doing well too.

 

 

 

I'd add that the now confirmed stat changes for flamers are also going to reduce the appeal of LRM trait. For that matter the increase in overall deadliness of a lot of weapons makes the removal of the hit re-roll a lot more understandable, due to the added impact those extra hits would now have.   

[Minsc]

*Sigh*
And here I was sort of hoping for some nerfs to my Salamanders so I could field them without the need to hamstring myself.
I was kind of happy about losing our Master Artisans-rerolls, and then surprise surprise:

- 12" Flame-weaponry, meaning it can be used when units arrive from reserve, which is HUGE!
- Improved Melta-weaponry.

Summer's soon over, but the BBQ-season hasn't even started yet...

[Frostglaive]

My greatest regret: selling my Drop Pods

 

Because oh dear Emperor 12" Flamers is gonna be way too fun!

[RyanT2112]

*Sigh*

And here I was sort of hoping for some nerfs to my Salamanders so I could field them without the need to hamstring myself.

I was kind of happy about losing our Master Artisans-rerolls, and then surprise surprise:

 

- 12" Flame-weaponry, meaning it can be used when units arrive from reserve, which is HUGE!

- Improved Melta-weaponry.

 

Summer's soon over, but the BBQ-season hasn't even started yet...

Very likely why they nerfed Salamanders

[AnImA8]

Yea, gotta say that I’m eating my words now (which I’m pretty happy about). GW nerfing the chapter trait in light of the significant buffs to our favored weapons seems pretty reasonable. It’s interesting too, I was pretty resigned to taking exclusively primaris marines from here on out too, but with 2W now my tacticals might still be worthwhile... :)