Anyone about to start 9th with Daemons?

[WarriorFish]

Yes, it's easily dispelled sadly Maybe we can see some Daemon powers get reworked with an update, it does feel that they are a little lacklustre - I haven't had loads of games with my Daemons but I've only had Hysterical Frenzy get a use once

 

Like Delightful Agonies I will keep trying to get them to work, though you could also say there's not much choice in the matter...

[DeStinyFiSh]

A quick question about Exalted abilities, WLT, Relics etc. in 9th Edition:

 

Page 280 in the rulebook under "Muster Armies" it is explained that unit Upgrades, Warlord, Relics etc. must be choosen pre game.

Can I still roll for Exalted abilities before I pick my Warlord and hand out Relics?

[Panzer]

A quick question about Exalted abilities, WLT, Relics etc. in 9th Edition:

 

Page 280 in the rulebook under "Muster Armies" it is explained that unit Upgrades, Warlord, Relics etc. must be choosen pre game.

Can I still roll for Exalted abilities before I pick my Warlord and hand out Relics?

 

 

It's a weird case but here's how it goes.

• Warlord traits and Relics etc are a fix part of the list now.
• Since you have the option to roll for traits for the Exalted Stratagem it's something you are intended to use right before the game begins otherwise people would just take the two best traits they want aka cheating
• However since there are Relics that can only be taken by Exalted Greater Daemons you have to use the Stratagem at the list building stage already if you want to access those

 

The solution is somewhat of a compromise. You use the Exalted Stratagem when writing your list already so you can take the Exalted Relics legally but only roll for the traits (or select one) right before the game begins. It unfortunately takes away a bit of freedom when you perhaps would pick a specific Exalted Relic for a specific Exalted trait, but it's the only way it legally works unless you have an opponent that 100% trusts you to roll your two traits randomly at home and stick with the result ... or you take only one trait and that's it.

[WarriorFish]

Agreed, whenever there's some rolling involved this is done at the game itself for transparency. Plus it would feel a bit odd to be rolling die on your own, it has always been part of the gaming experience :P

[Cheex]

In Eternal War, you must use the stratagem when mustering your army (Rulebook, p280, last paragraph under 'Muster Armies'). If you wish to choose the ability, you would apply it at this point.

 

If you wish to roll your abilities, you write "Random" on your roster and roll for it in front of your opponent before the game (Psychic Awakening: Engine War, p76, 'Matched Play Rule - Daemonic Jealousy').

[TheNewman]

I honestly wish it would work like that against my opponents too. Usually they just power through the FnP and kill the unit anyway. :sweat:

The trick is to find the one guy locally who consistently has the absurdly improbable dice luck (he's probably using GW dice, I swear those things are loaded from the get-go) and convince him to try Deathguard. Give it a few months and everyone will be conditioned to think FNP saves are broken.

Edited August 9, 2020 by TheNewman

[BitsHammer]

I'm hopping into Chaos myself with the headliner of 2020: Nurgle

 

While the GUO benefited the least from the changes (he could already shoot into combat for example), there are changes worth looking at stuff over:

 

+Morale punishes us less than it used to if it goes south (though I appreciate Sloppity Bilepiper's morale gimmick enough to want to run him just to get daemons back more often).

+All the non GUO Greater Daemons with shooting attack options can use those in melee, which helps them reap chaffe easier (also it buffed Rotigus who couldn't shoot into melee before).

+Since heralds no longer share slots for some reason it's cheap to buy into multiple detachements if we want to maximize our support buffs (I can see double patrols being popular for this as it means 4 HQs and 2 Troop Choices for 2CP, quite a decent steal honestly)

+Units we charge with FLY no longer get to shoot for free if they escape combat

+Furies have plastic models thanks to Warcry and honestly might be worth looking at as a cheap flying screen unit.

+Skull Cannons, Burning Chariots, and Soul Grinders (all models with heavy weapon shooting attacks) got better thanks to how heavy weapons work in 9th.

+Feculant Gnarlmaws are improved because the new detachment system makes taking them worth doing.

 

So I've seen some complaints online that Nurgle is too slow for this edition and I had to scratch my head a bit. Unsupported, sure, but Spoilpox makes them movement 6", the trees let them run and charge, With that you're looking at a 24" threat range on a smaller board. Nurgle is more of a "go second" army, but it's worth doing so just to have charge targets (unless you're just running a list that fills the board with Nurglings before your opponent can move, then you may want to go first).

 

Plus your opponent will be trying to move forward to engage with you, so you'll both be hitting the mid field and then grinding from there, and grinding is something Nurgle still excels at.

 

I think one of Nurgle's better changes is the ability to toss the -1 to hit around at different targets. Like the GUO who previously didn't need it, instead of the Plaguebearers who tap into it naturally when over 20 models.

 

Long story short, I feel like the army has tools under its belt to work better this edition, even if it has to worry a little bit about blasts (I'd worry mainly about missile launcher heavy weapon teams or Devastators to be honest, since they throw so many dice on a cheap firing platform, and not the internet's new boogeyman the Wyvern since that only averages 4 Plaguebearers killed in a single shooting phase).

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I've had 3 games with my pure Khorne daemons, and I'm now 1 and 2.

 

I barely won a 500 point game against a mostly melee WB daemonkkin list.

 

Lost very handily to a 1,500 DG list running a squad of 20 pox walkers, a cluster of Plague Crawlers, and melee Plague Marines in rhinos with that fight last flamer character I forget the name of.

 

Was tabled by 1,000 points of Deathskull Orks running a single hoard of boys backed up by lutas, commandos, burnas in a truck, and a defdread. Notably I didn't even kill a single full unit of his in that game.

 

...

 

My thoughts are this:

 

Playing pure khorne is still extremely hard. The new Hoard rules are very detrimental to the army, new morale was consistently hurting more than helping me, not being able to declare charges against the characters behind bubble wrap and fight twice into them really cuts back on my kill potential, and other armies being able to interrupt me or otherwise disrupt the fight phase just causes the whole army to crumble. 

 

The new strats do help units like Hounds, Skullcannons, and even Crushers perform better than they used to, but the army is still exactly where it was for all of 8th. Not enough tools and not killy enough in the fight phase to justify it being the only phase it functions in. Also, Skullcannons are blast, which doesn't give them enough of a boost in shooting to make them good at killing anything, while making them unable to shoot if they get tagged. So they're still a really cumbersome unit to find a place for. Just a big, slow blocking unit you can half damage for and drop on an objective.

[BitsHammer]

Have you looked at Furies or Soul Grinders yet? I'd be interested to know if they help patch some holes for Khorne.

[Amon777]

So, Khorne is not in the best place. They kill just as good as they did in 8th but the game has moved to the need for objectives. Bloodletters have no durability at T3 and it wastes their role as killers. Nothing else can perform actions for secondaries for Khorne since the rest are monsters or calvary.

 

It's not that they can't win, it's just an uphill battle.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Have you looked at Furies or Soul Grinders yet? I'd be interested to know if they help patch some holes for Khorne.

 

Assuming it could have survived the tripple meltas and rocket launchers of the DG list, a soulgrinder would have been a great anti tank tool to help patch my list for that game. In fact, I'm building a Soulgrinder now to have on hand for that very reason. Khorne really suffers from no dedicated anti tank outside of daemon princes or bloodthirsters, and none of our multi-model units have access to constant multi damage. The whole army is in a sort of weird spot right now.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Demons are especially in a bad place with fliers, what with 9th FLY units no longer able to assault aircraft.  Makes playing the objectives extra crucial.  I think some several minimum strength deepstiking units are mandatory in every demon list now.

[BitsHammer]

Demons are especially in a bad place with fliers, what with 9th FLY units no longer able to assault aircraft.  Makes playing the objectives extra crucial.  I think some several minimum strength deepstiking units are mandatory in every demon list now.

Pg 213 says units with FLY can heroically intervene, consolidate and pile in to models with the AIRCRAFT keyword, so I don't see why they can't assualt them.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I've moved this debate to the rules forum, as its somewhat off topic here.  If anyone wants to debate is further, please go there.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/365803-can-units-with-fly-assault-aircraft/?p=5581386

Edited August 10, 2020 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Scribe]

I actually may. I have had 2 Daemon armies previously, maybe build a 3rd, fully undivided this time (gateway to 4 mono god...but alas these things cannot be helped!)

 

I'm extremely tempted to build a new CSM army, but...without proper Khorne/World Eater models I'm not sure I pull the trigger. I feel its just a matter of time until we get what TKS and DG have, and I would hate to need to double up or convert a khorne army then buy all the new models... :D

[WarriorFish]

Yes, nothing ever stops where you plan (I've at least accepted in advance that I will have Tzeentch daemons?)... Some WE stuff is surely on the way I'm hoping that there will be some support in some way for running CSM and Daemons together without too much penalty but we'll see. After all, the armies are often gateways to each other

 

After GW demonstrating they're willing to make significant changes with Marines I'm feeling there is some optimism to be had for Daemons, so perhaps now really is a good time to start? By the time you get going a new codex shouldn't be too far away (or ready to use if you paint as slow as I do). I wonder what chance there is for new Daemon models? If so, an updated Soul Grinder (and Defiler) would be my pick, feels like some non-god additions might be a good way to flesh out all Daemon armies?

 

We shall see as always, anyone who is starting out don't forget to start a WIP topic so we can see your progress

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Huh. You don't like the soulgrinder kit? I've just started working with it and quite enjoy it myself. Didn't even know it was that old.

 

As to the opinion that Daemons might see a much tastier release in this new and exciting landscape of upgunned codecies, I very much agree. Pretty sure I've mentioned this already, but the way they're talking about these books makes it sound like they're leaning on Sigmar for inspiration. Each Sigmar book feels really chunky and impactful in how it allows your army to play.

 

Also, I've been keeping an eye on the FAQs, and I think that the line about 'weapons who's damage can not be ignored' is really going to come into play with greater daemons. That rumor from a while ago that Knights might get a damage per phase cap like Ghaz and the BT have access to can be specifically countered by this new rule, and who better to be able to plough through a damage cap than a Bloodthirster?

[TheNewman]

I'm not fond of the Souldgrinder kit either, for the same reason I don't like the Furies kit; it doesn't fit thematically in a pure Slannesh list. There are some things in the Daughters of Khaine and Sylvian AoS ranges that would kind of fit the bill, but nothing that's just right.

[Scribe]

Yes, nothing ever stops where you plan (I've at least accepted in advance that I will have Tzeentch daemons?)... Some WE stuff is surely on the way I'm hoping that there will be some support in some way for running CSM and Daemons together without too much penalty but we'll see. After all, the armies are often gateways to each other

 

After GW demonstrating they're willing to make significant changes with Marines I'm feeling there is some optimism to be had for Daemons, so perhaps now really is a good time to start? By the time you get going a new codex shouldn't be too far away (or ready to use if you paint as slow as I do). I wonder what chance there is for new Daemon models? If so, an updated Soul Grinder (and Defiler) would be my pick, feels like some non-god additions might be a good way to flesh out all Daemon armies?

 

We shall see as always, anyone who is starting out don't forget to start a WIP topic so we can see your progress

 

Yes, I certainly will. I'm in the middle of a moving process, and everything has been locked up for quite some time, but a new edition is always a good time to start up.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

TheNewman, IMHO the Daughters of Kaine Witch Aelves box (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Daughters-Of-Khaine-Witch-Aelves-2018) works really well with Slanneshi daemon force - you just need to kit bash them.  In my army I've made extensive use of it, mixing it 50/50 with the demonettes box to produce more dynamic demonettes, and otherwise using their parts for demonettes that form part of other units (such as seekers and the chariots) - you can see how the demonettes look on the first page of this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356094-kadeths-handmaidens-dr-ruminahuis-slanneshi-host/ and examples of seekers and chariots further in.

 

I am one of those who are adding to their demon army in the hopes they get decent rules this edition - even if they don't I'll get an impressive looking army out of my efforts. :)

[Scribe]

I probably end up doing that, funny I was there on that 2014 post, time just moves ever onward...

 

Assuming I do kick up a new army, are there units that as of 8th have been absolutely horrible that I should avoid like the plague?

[WarriorFish]

For Khorne Daemons? I'm not too familiar with Khorne units but I think the answer is "no" mostly because the available choices are limited so your options are accordingly. Hopefully someone can provide more detail, but it may well be that even if a unit isn't great you need it to perform a role anyway...

 

Aside from being a core part of the universe's lore, Daemons are a very different army with strong themes so will always look great when painted up on the table

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

You do need just about every Khorne unit, aside from maybe Skullcannons. I've been testing them as back field objective holders in 9th, and their ability to halve incoming damage helps at lower points but completely falls apart when they take any sort of heavy fire. But in short, the basic breakdown for Khorne is as follows:

 

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage: purely for style points, the other two are useless unless you want to run the new relic axe.

Daemon Prince: Your primary tank hunter and damage dealer, you'll rely on them a little too heavily.

Skulltaker: Only for style points, he's too fragile.

Karanak: Cheap double deny if you have the free HQ slot but otherwise not worth it. A tech choice against psychic armies.

Heralds: Helps buff bloodletters against Nurgle and so on. Which one you pick is really up to you.

Bloodletters: They're your only really functional unit, they will carry your entire game, but they die to literally anything.

Flesh Hounds: Early objective grabbers, psychic deny, and generally pretty good to stand around soaking fire. Kind of fragile but a unit of 5 with no upgrades used to be a super solid investment, new points are a touch steap but you still need them.

Bloodcrushers: Your only reliable way to dish out mortal wounds through their strat. At higher point games it might be worth trying them just to damage things you might otherwise have trouble with. A touch too expensive now too, but such is life.

Skullcannons: Awful shooting, awful melee, but 7 wounds and T7, with the ability to halve all incoming damage. They're the toughest thing in the army but that isn't saying much.

 

That's about it. The army is so inflexible that you sort of get stuck doing the same hand full of things. Take the Crimson Crown always and then your next relic is up to choice. Maybe take an exulted bloodthirster for fun, but it still won't accomplish much. Not trying to be bleak or anything, there's just, not a lot to say about the army at the moment. Skull Altar is too expensive for what it does, same for Skarbrand. Everything dies too easily, and you'll find yourself getting both out shot and out meleed a lot, which can be sort of rough.

[Ulfast]

I´m thinking to get full Tzeentch and I think it´s possibly. Will it win a tournament, porpably not. but will it win a game or two against my friends, yes, I´m pretty sure about that. I think we daemon players have some good units and some trick that other armies can´t do. but we need to rethink completly I would say how we think about our army and what to do with it. A good first advice I think is to remember that the mission is what win the game, not killing most enimies troops (but ofc that helps).

 

I really like Fulkes above views on our army and what we can do with it. We need more tihnking like that. 

 

Of course we have some troubles and is not the strongest army around. and hopefull a future codex will help with it but until that time I still think we can be fun to play, paint and win with. 

[Syrakul]

You do need just about every Khorne unit, aside from maybe Skullcannons. I've been testing them as back field objective holders in 9th, and their ability to halve incoming damage helps at lower points but completely falls apart when they take any sort of heavy fire. But in short, the basic breakdown for Khorne is as follows:

 

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage: purely for style points, the other two are useless unless you want to run the new relic axe.

Daemon Prince: Your primary tank hunter and damage dealer, you'll rely on them a little too heavily.

Skulltaker: Only for style points, he's too fragile.

Karanak: Cheap double deny if you have the free HQ slot but otherwise not worth it. A tech choice against psychic armies.

Heralds: Helps buff bloodletters against Nurgle and so on. Which one you pick is really up to you.

Bloodletters: They're your only really functional unit, they will carry your entire game, but they die to literally anything.

Flesh Hounds: Early objective grabbers, psychic deny, and generally pretty good to stand around soaking fire. Kind of fragile but a unit of 5 with no upgrades used to be a super solid investment, new points are a touch steap but you still need them.

Bloodcrushers: Your only reliable way to dish out mortal wounds through their strat. At higher point games it might be worth trying them just to damage things you might otherwise have trouble with. A touch too expensive now too, but such is life.

Skullcannons: Awful shooting, awful melee, but 7 wounds and T7, with the ability to halve all incoming damage. They're the toughest thing in the army but that isn't saying much.

 

That's about it. The army is so inflexible that you sort of get stuck doing the same hand full of things. Take the Crimson Crown always and then your next relic is up to choice. Maybe take an exulted bloodthirster for fun, but it still won't accomplish much. Not trying to be bleak or anything, there's just, not a lot to say about the army at the moment. Skull Altar is too expensive for what it does, same for Skarbrand. Everything dies too easily, and you'll find yourself getting both out shot and out meleed a lot, which can be sort of rough.

I have a NIB collection of Khorne elite elements with lots of bloodcrushers (and skullcrushers as same), and khornedogs I would love to build into an army along with GD and mono khorne. I held off in 8th because well, Id get shot off the field. I fear with all the wounds being doled out on SM, the disparity to other elite armies will grow further.