Will Deathwatch get Incursors(?)

[L30n1d4s]

If Deathwatch are rolled into the main SM Codex, and so get access to all Space Marine units, plus their unique stuff (like Watch Masters, Blackstars, Kill Teams, etc), then one can assume they will get access to Incursors as well.

 

If that is indeed true then, combined with Special Issue Ammo and Mission Tactics, they are going to be pretty brutal.... imagine their Ignore Cover Carbines never suffering any negative hit modifiers (Multi-Spectrum Array), wounding on 2+ (Hellfire rounds) and AP-1 (Tactical Doctrine). Throw in Concealed Positions, Paired Combat Knives, and access to Soke Grenades for hanging on to Objectives and you have an exceptional dangerous all around Troop choice that can compete in every phase of the game (except Psychic, of course).

[GrinNfool]

I can understand the optimism since DW have little to lose being put in the SM codex + supplement structure, but our inclusion doesn't mean we get EVERYTHING marines have.  As an example there is almost no chance for us to get scouts though that is in the SM book.  Which means there will be exceptions and until we know what those exceptions are. while I can say sure it would be nice to get certain units, its hard to theory craft too much without concrete knowledge.  Hope for the best but just based on their history with us and phobos units it would seem to be arbitrary timing to go ok now you can use these units even though we said you couldn't for over a year, even though we aren't giving anything specific.  If we got access it would have to coincide with the supplement i think.

[Trokair]

I suspect it will be a little bit like 3rd edition, where our supplement/mini codex will have our unique units and then a list of units we can take from the main codex.

 

I would love it if we get all the Vanguard stuff, but until I see it in print I will be cautiously cynical.

[Irbis]

If Deathwatch are rolled into the main SM Codex, and so get access to all Space Marine units, plus their unique stuff (like Watch Masters, Blackstars, Kill Teams, etc), then one can assume they will get access to Incursors as well.

 

Not so fast. When DW was in Index: SM, Kelly/Cruddace genius rule writing still managed to deny DW not only access to most of SM units, but also made them only SM chapter from all present in the book with mangled wargear tables. I hope you're right but precedent says nope.

 

If that is indeed true then, combined with Special Issue Ammo and Mission Tactics, they are going to be pretty brutal....

 

Incursors are expensive. Add SIA and DW tax on top, and I don't think they will be viable. Then consider the fact that next to Intercessors (who can take actual melee weapons, instead of relying on hail Emprah praying for sixes, are cheaper, and have better guns) they are kind of a trap unit that tries to do everything but is good at nothing for a hefty price, competition is just better at what they are trying to do. I hope all phobos units got much needed buff/rethinking, but at it is, plain primaris still do it better unless you really need that one niche trick.

[Lemondish]

I think your take on Incursors misses what makes them do damn good for everyone else - scout deploy.

 

A scout deploy unit with SIA would be insane.

[GrinNfool]

Agree with lemon on this one I think you are missing the point Irbis, just getting to forward deploy10-20 SIA shots would be very solid, and put an immediate threat in your opponents face that DW can follow up on turn after turn via deepstrike strats, creating hard choices for your opponent to hit the immediate threat or try to kill stalkers or other back line threats.  Besides DW are already expensive, if we are spending 20 points for a vet with a SB are we really going to look down on incursors at 21, even if they get a point or 2 hike to 22/23.   However... as I stated before it may as well be wishlisting because unless GW specifically declares we will get the phobos units I won't be holding my breath for it, and think its probably a topic to be tabled until/if they state we do get access.

[Irbis]

I think your take on Incursors misses what makes them do damn good for everyone else - scout deploy.

 

Yes, but Infiltrators are still better at that. Plus, their no-deepstrike bubble is going up in value with smaller tables and easier assaults from off-table, not to mention FNP on demand. I don't know, I tried all three units but between Intercessors being stronger troop choice for less and Infiltrators having tricks few other units in the whole SM range can match I just never found any use for Incursors. If they get actual melee weapon access it might change, at least then their close range gimmick will get some bite to it.

 

Agree with lemon on this one I think you are missing the point Irbis, just getting to forward deploy10-20 SIA shots would be very solid, and put an immediate threat in your opponents face that DW can follow up on turn after turn via deepstrike strats, creating hard choices for your opponent to hit the immediate threat or try to kill stalkers or other back line threats.  Besides DW are already expensive, if we are spending 20 points for a vet with a SB are we really going to look down on incursors at 21, even if they get a point or 2 hike to 22/23.   However... as I stated before it may as well be wishlisting because unless GW specifically declares we will get the phobos units I won't be holding my breath for it, and think its probably a topic to be tabled until/if they state we do get access.

Eh, I just don't see that immediate threat bit. Not only DW can easily dump terminators or aggressors up close making threat that is much harder to ignore, but with new reserve rules, the value of infiltration gone down a bit. When bog standard DW veterans with bolter and chainsword offer virtually the same performance for cheaper, even ignoring the fact they can be cheaply upgraded to help with defense/offense, it's kind of hard to get excited about Incursors. Maybe if their rules change in new book?

[leth]

Feel like I would rather take infiltrators 100% of the time anyway 

[L30n1d4s]

How do Infiltrators get easy access to FNP? Edited July 27, 2020 by L30n1d4s

[Lemondish]

I disagree that infiltrators are better at scout deploy considering they both are obsec units that can scout deploy - one just does it cheaper. This is far more valuable on smaller tables than you are giving it credit for. Infiltration is the one thing that can guarantee placement. Traditional deep strike and strategic reserves are harder to land in preferred areas, and that's when with the normal 9" range.

 

What I think you meant was that Infiltrators better at screening out deep strikes.

 

But I'm not sure I want to screen out deep strikes past 9 inches all the time. A unit of Incursors firing at incoming deep strikers with the Auspex stratagem is a whole extra set of SIA shooting that is not impacted by any negative modifiers.

 

Furthermore, I like that they're a tad bit cheaper even with the mine.

 

Keep in mind that I'm not saying Infiltrators are bad. They aren't. I'm also not saying Incursors are the greatest unit addition to DW ever. They ain't.

 

What I am saying is that they each have viable uses and it is up to you to decide what it is you're trying to do with either unit. I prefer Incursors because of their potential interaction with SIA, and feel the price premium for Infiltrators for the deep strike denial is not something I value as much as the savings. In my experience, they both do 95% the same job - it's just what your particular chapter brings that can really help one outshine the other.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Lemondish

[Syward]

 

Eh, I just don't see that immediate threat bit. Not only DW can easily dump terminators or aggressors up close making threat that is much harder to ignore, but with new reserve rules, the value of infiltration gone down a bit. When bog standard DW veterans with bolter and chainsword offer virtually the same performance for cheaper, even ignoring the fact they can be cheaply upgraded to help with defense/offense, it's kind of hard to get excited about Incursors. Maybe if their rules change in new book?

 

Being able to deploy SIA turn 1 anywhere outside your opponents deployment zone on the board that's 9"+ away from your opponent for free (no CP) is very different than coming into play within 6" of the map edge on turn 2+ at the cost of CP and if done well/correctly can give you an early lead/advantage that may be difficult for your opponent to come back from. 

 

Also, if we're able to bring the Phobos Captain, we can equip him with the Beacon, and have an Inter-Gressor or Inter-Blaster kill team in rapid fire range turn 1. I'd call that an immediate threat.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Syward

[leth]

Which is why I said I would take them for how I think to approach it. 
 

objectives you want to not only infiltrate on them but also deny reinforcements. Having a 12 inch denial window from every model not only prevents reinforcements but also makes sure that they are not in charge range as well. Weapons seem comparable. Incursors bring paired weapons but you don’t want this unit for CC, you should already have more dedicated units pushing forward. 

[Qui-Gon]

How do Infiltrators get easy access to FNP?

 

He might be thinking of the Helix Adept. Still is not a FNP.