Still 'safe' to buy older kits?

[General Tullius]

My Space Marines are second tier now thanks to Primaris.

Necrons have gotten a major update and I'd just hate to have been the guy who painted 60 old Warriors during lockdown before the box got announced... luckily I'm not, but Mike is very, very unhappy that his Retrocrons don't look as spiffy as the one materializing in the new Monolith. And that one ain't even fully materialized yet!

With all this, I noticed that I'm wary of starting a new army.

There are some who will get an update sooner (Eldar and 'Nids spring to mind).

Some, i.e. Necrons, Sisters, Primaris and, it seems, Orks next year, have just gotten their new look [Edit: And AdMech. Forgot AdMech. They're staying true to the newer kits in their newest releases.].

The difference in detail between new and old kits is a huge one in every case. Sure, the old stuff is still playable, but finishing your army and suddenly, released it a much better looking version of your army, that would just feel, you know...

So now, buying the 'old' models now with a possible update around the corner this edition feels premature.

And thus, all but 5 armies have completely lost their lure.

Am I seeing things here? Are the younger kits like some T'au with their 2017 Commander still a safe place to put your money?

Or should I look towards the recently renewed armies for the foreseeable future? Their kits should keep for some time yet. I mean, if they're not Space Marines, they can last up to 20 years

Edited July 27, 2020 by General Tullius

[Vermintide]

I'd just hate to have been the guy who painted 60 old Warriors during lockdown

I'm almost that guy, but I don't need sympathy- The old warriors still look way better to my tastes. In fact I'm probably gonna have to buy another box before they stop making 'em... But only time will tell if I can tolerate mixing in the smelly virgin non-green-rod Newcrons with my superior mega-chad Green Rod Oldcrons.

 

I just got 6 Destroyers and a Nightbringer built too the very day of the announcement My Necrons will always be Oldcrons, though. I doubt I'll be adding too much of the new stuff no matter how good it is.

[Bro Castiel]

I was wondering this exact same thing! More specifically, do I bother with old school marines or just go primaris because old school might get squatted...

[Marshal Loss]

It depends. Take EC for example: most people agree that the Emperor's Children are inevitably going to get a range release. There is some evidence for this (DG & TS having received them, lots of teasers in the lore, etc) which goes back over 3.5 years. Should EC fans wait? Use the newer vanilla CSM models with the awful finecast upgrade kits in the meantime? I'd been waiting for years but recently started painting up some vanilla CSM as EC because I want to play the damn faction and I was tired of waiting. A prospective EC release is just something I'd have to deal with. Others, no doubt, are avoiding spending any money, which is an entirely reasonable decision.

 

The answer comes down to how badly you want to play a given faction. If you are really paranoid about this sort of thing then definitely only select armies that have had comprehensive revamps (Primaris SM, Necrons, Vanilla CSM, Sisters, Mechanicus, etc). Others (e.g. Tau) are largely safe; I can't see them replacing core kits like Fire Warriors anytime soon. Some (e.g. Eldar) have a mix of old kits which look awful, old kits which have aged well, and a relative handful of newer kits. They are definitely due for a revamp, but for all we know it might still be 5 years away.

 

TLDR if you have a favourite faction, and you're happy with the kits, go for it. But only you can answer the question "would you be unhappy if these kits were invalidated in 12-36 months". If that is a major factor for you, then go for a newer army. GW's release schedule never has been and never will be public and even factions which are obvious targets for a major release could still be waiting 3-5 years. My view is that you shouldn't let the prospect of a potential release stop you from having fun. 

 

 

I was wondering this exact same thing! More specifically, do I bother with old school marines or just go primaris because old school might get squatted...

Oldmarines are inevitably going to be moved to legends one day. If you like the models and don't mind the fact that every single piece of future art and lore is going to be revolving around Primaris, why not? There's 0 chance that GW will make it so you can't actually play them so it's not a particularly risky decision. Personally, though, I wouldn't.

[Lucerne]

I would not invest in firstborn except for conversion bits.

 

Similarly, I would advise against starting or buying ANY older squad set, ie: cadians, ork boys, eldar etc are a terrible investment.

[Captain Incompetence]

 

Similarly, I would advise against starting or buying ANY older squad set, ie: cadians, ork boys, eldar etc are a terrible investment.

I can see Ork Boys being terrible investments right now, but Eldar and Cadians? It's likely they'll get an upgrade somewhere in the not too distant future, but it could also be two years from now. If you need some extra guardsmen for your army, you might as well pick them up, no?

[Doghouse]

It's really hard to start anything at the moment because we don't know what is coming or will be replaced. I'm sticking to only buying new or recent stuff for now.

 

Anything Primaris, Death Guard or Sisters of Battle should be safe as for the most part they are completely new miniatures.

 

The ones I would be extremely careful with are Eldar and Imperial Guard as they both have some seriously old models. I think Guard would be a huge thing for 40k if they did.

 

Orks are a tricky one because there is no indication if the preview model was a Boy or something like Scarboyz.

 

No idea about Dark Eldar or Tau, I'm holding off on Tau just in case they update the crisis suits.

[Kenzaburo]

I totally get where you're coming from. I have large amounts of marines I collected over the past years, always hoping that my everyday life will allow me to get them painted one day. I also own a lot of ork boyz, that I have started painting to all base-coat level over the past year and then improve upon at a later point. I hate it when armies and projects you are working end up being outdated all of a sudden. Sure, sure, the boyz kit has been around forever and was bound to be updated at some point. And sure, I don't need to bother with it. But sometimes GW has that nasty habit of chaning sizes of minis, bases and whatnot, making those 60 boyz all in need of rebasing or whatever - and that sucks. 

 

This goes hand in hand with the rapid release schedule. I'm a slow painter with only little amounts of spare time. But i love painting. With the current speed of releases I should only stick to safe armies to be on the safe side. Funny enough, the german version of Conquest released the issue with the basic game rules last week, rules that weren't even valid anymore at that point. Even marines players got burned - they bought a brand new codex last year only to have it replaced just a year later, because there's a ton of new units coming out. 

 

Is there a solution to your (and my) problem? Not really. It's as others have put it. Either you like an army enough to just not care about it or you choose one of the safe routes offered by the other posters.

 

EDIT: What I forgot: On one hand, orks should still be safe. The boys in the vehicles GW released 2 years ago were still in line with the standard boyz design and size. But then there's the whole AOS debacle from the end of WHFB, when really new kits just vanished and are no longer available (looking at you, old high elves). Even firstborn marines should have been safe, since Deathwatch veterans were released about half a year before 8th ed and the dawn of Primaris. There's just no guarantee.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Kenzaburo

[Azekai]

I would not invest in firstborn except for conversion bits.

 

Similarly, I would advise against starting or buying ANY older squad set, ie: cadians, ork boys, eldar etc are a terrible investment.

What

 

There are plastic sprues that are over 20 years old, like gaunts. Telling someone to sit on their hands on the off chance that the range is updated is bad advice, especially for any potential xenos players.

[battle captain corpus]

...just going to say this from the get go.

 

If this descends into a negative bashing Primaris or anything along those kind of lines we will shut it down. :)

 

Let’s support the original poster with some worthy & sage advice. -thumbs up-

 

BCC

[Doghouse]

 

I would not invest in firstborn except for conversion bits.

 

Similarly, I would advise against starting or buying ANY older squad set, ie: cadians, ork boys, eldar etc are a terrible investment.

What

 

There are plastic sprues that are over 20 years old, like gaunts. Telling someone to sit on their hands on the off chance that the range is updated is bad advice, especially for any potential xenos players.

 

To be fair though we just saw it happen with the Necron Warriors which came out in 3rd edition. I nearly fell prey to that recently, just before the new Necron stuff was coming out I was about to order a ton of warriors.

[Vermintide]

Let's be philosophical about this. How long do we expect the hobby to continue? And do we expect any of these kits to attain their "final form", the form in which they exist from here until the end of time? Or do we expect GW to refresh them at some point in future inevitably?

 

Advising against buying older kits because they are bad investments is really a kind of false economy. You don't know if and when those kits are getting updated; we all speculate firstbornes are getting shunted to Legends when Primaris is fully released but we might be wrong. And even after that happens, there's nothing stopping you using old models. There are people out there who still use Rogue Trader marines.

 

Was it an unwise investment to buy the 1st generation plastic marines from 2nd edition, if you knew the venerable classic Tactical Squad kit from 3rd edition was only a couple of years away? The only decision you should be making when buying models is "Do I like these specific models?"

 

Honestly, in the worst case scenario, you will just have some cool vintage models that all the hipster kids on YouTube will say "have more soul" in 20 years time.

[Noserenda]

I mean those old plastics are a bad investment barbecue they are fugly and lacking options relatively :D 

I think if you stick to buying models you like youll never regret it, which is why im liking GWs increasingly broad approach to army selection, its a rare force now that has something you MUST field and typically they are a good box or so core to the deign identity that you probably dont like the rest of the army either :)

But yeah, with some exceptions the newer models tend to be a lot nicer and certainly have higher production values/tech. 

[sairence]

Since you can't know what'll come next I personally wouldn't base my buying decisions on it. I bought a Baneblade a few months ago...they weren't great in 8th and I have my doubts it'll see the table in 9th. But I'm going to make it as sexy as I can and feel happy about that.

 

If you want an army of certain models go for it. If they announce a refresh in half a year...your models are still going to look good when you're done with them. :)

[Lucerne]

 

 

Similarly, I would advise against starting or buying ANY older squad set, ie: cadians, ork boys, eldar etc are a terrible investment.

I can see Ork Boys being terrible investments right now, but Eldar and Cadians? It's likely they'll get an upgrade somewhere in the not too distant future, but it could also be two years from now. If you need some extra guardsmen for your army, you might as well pick them up, no?

 

Cadians aged like sour milk and honestly the eldar are equally dated.

 

If you're going to replace them and they're that numerous...why not hold off or kitbash?

[WGXH]

It's understandable to be hesitant to take a plunge on a new project, but the argument of future proofing is a very difficult one to maintain, in my opinion.

 

After all, come five years time we may have an even larger pandemic which sees GW closed for good. Does it really matter what armies you own or from what edition then? You'd be at the mercy of those who would choose to game with you- which in a sense, you still are now.

 

I've taken the plunge and bought into Primaris, sure. But I also have kept going with 'Firstborn', especially around the Heresy kits.

 

Marshall Loss brought up the Emperor's Children as an example further up, and they are one of my 30k projects. I've painstakingly converted up 30 Kakophani/Noise Marines, utilised Tartaros Terminators and Phoenix Guard Terminators alongside Palatine Blades, led by Eidolon. Even with new kits coming, I don't believe any reasonable opponent would state that on an appropriate base (32mm/40mm) they would refuse to allow me to use the models I'd worked so hard on- everything is very visibly distinct to what it is, and the 'counts-as' is also reasonable (i.e Phoenix Terminators have no ranged weapon, ergo Lightning Claw Chaos Terminators).

 

If somebody decided that they didn't want to game against that- fair enough, that is their decision to make. But it's also their decision to not play anything else that I bring, either. and holding off on a project that I want to do based on speculation of future changes does not seem like a wise decision to make.

 

After all, around 4 years ago there were no plastic custodes. 2 years before that, Knights appeared. In between the two, Harlequins became a stand-alone force. The only constant is change.

[General Tullius]

Thank you all so much for the input!

While I am definitely inclined to just get the models I like (hell, I'm tempted to do a Heresy kit IF army. Even doing a Traitor Legion is more reasonable than that.), it's just that there's a difference between my models being outdated in a few years and them being outdated before I can even finish the army.

That factor of very imminent, not generally and naturally occuring change, is what disheartens me.

[Gederas]

Thank you all so much for the input!

While I am definitely inclined to just get the models I like (hell, I'm tempted to do a Heresy kit IF army. Even doing a Traitor Legion is more reasonable than that.), it's just that there's a difference between my models being outdated in a few years and them being outdated before I can even finish the army.

That factor of very imminent, not generally and naturally occuring change, is what disheartens me.

If you're interested in doing a Heresy era army, you have no issue then. The Mark IV and Mark III kits are the newest Firstborn models, iirc.

[MARK0SIAN]

I approach this kind of thing from another direction. How would you feel if tomorrow, the kits you’re looking at getting were removed from the store, shunted to legends and you couldn’t buy them any more?

 

If you’d be gutted and wish you’d bought them when you had the chance, even though you knew they were no longer current, then I’d advise you to buy as many of the older kits as you like and can afford.

 

If you would just shrug and move on then I’d say don’t invest in the older range.

Edited July 27, 2020 by MARK0SIAN

[chapter master 454]

So lets see what is happening.

 

Primaris are being aggressively pushed. Their releases have been a constant occurrence within 40k since the advent of 8th and it can be said that a vast majority of parties are a little fed-up with them, not just non-marine players but some (not going to speak for anyone here, I know Ishagu would be happy with more primaris every day :P) marine players too are getting somewhat tired of them. We have been used to be the favoured child of GW, constant codices were never a problem (Keep calm BT players) and generally never far from more stuff really however Primaris just keep coming and they don't stop coming and they don't stop coming and they don't stop coming...

Are the new Primaris Models good? Yes. Visually they look great however there are debates regarding their aesthetic, ranging from grievances with how standard intercessors look, Inceptors being rather derpy for some and debates are never far regarding their tanks (of which I am one of the people you will find who general likes their infantry and would like their tanks if they had tracks, so I am on both sides of the fence).

 

However it raises question about the rather venerable back catalogue of units that still have kits that many people do still like because they are what they not only grew up with but also may like how it looks more than what Primaris wear (being called Mk.X (10) armour, while other players may enjoy the older styles of Mk.V(5) through VIII(8) armour). These kits aren't actually outdone by the Primaris line of models, the biggest sticking point that stands out is how versatile that these kits are. Any of the Firstborn marine kits (with few exceptions) can be mixed and matched to create so many combination of models it would be impossible for Primaris to even touch this aspect of the Firstborn, but they don't need to.

 

This is where things can start to get really messy, dirty and questionable with various questions that have all sorts of oddball endings.

First, how would GW even begin to phase out Firstborns? There is a case to be made that they have axed other factions with little fanfare before like Tomb Kings and Brettonions from Fantasy but those were niche factions, this is the flagship main stay big boy seller of the entire franchise bar none who has been the icon of the game for its entire life being handled here. You can't just axe them without ether being the more careful surgeon alive or effectively just say "no we don't want money anymore" and kill themselves the same day. It simply can't be done and just having them around will hinder the ability to get rid of them as even a younger audience will be exposed to them and may enjoy the flexible kits or the older style of armour, thinking of them like true veterans while the Primaris are seen as the younger less experienced generation, not the case but doesn't stop that being a possible outcome as 40k tends to carry the maxim of "Old tech = powerful".

That is just one issue, this isn't just a niche faction they are handling and not some niche set of units within that faction. They aren't Tomb Kings and they aren't Pariahs (necron unit, "proto" lychguard I suppose to best describe it).

 

This is also then further reinforced that within the lore GW has established that Primaris aren't 100% of chapter production of new marines. Not all marines become Primaris and while Firstborns can become Primaris via the Rubicon, it isn't without costs and risks. Mainly the fact that within lore Chapter Geneseeds do show signs of degeneration which can result in the loss of vital organs for the creation of a new marine. What happens if any of the Primaris organs are lost?

What about maintaining stock of Progonoid glands? Can firstborn marine glands be used to created Primaris organs at all or can you only get new primaris organs from primaris only? What if a chapter runs out of Primaris Organs? How easy would that be to replace in the long run, with the caveat that the only reason primaris became so wide spread so quickly was the massive stock cawl made over 10k years along with express delivery via various means but even then some deliveries were lost, I believe one batch of primaris recruits were killed by custodes because on arrival the receiving chapter had turned renegade so the custodes just axed the primaris despite having nothing to do with it.

 

This means that lore-wise and real-life-wise there are strong cases to be made that firstborn can't be removed not just because they are too iconic but also that the lore implications would be a complete disaster in terms of how do you explain it while maintaining a good narrative. This all contradicts however GW's actions and responses (or lack there of) in regards to this matter. They have said they aren't axing Firstborns but yet ever new unit contradicts that and we get less and less comms regarding what the firstborns are getting if anything in the future.

I will clarify that I am among many who have just submitted to the great replacement and no longer care really, except about the Primaris tanks looking like hot garbage so long as they keep giving them safety bumpers!

 

It is also possible that GW have a long cooking plan to give Firstborns a whole arsenal of new toys, new everything that is just taking a long time to make because model making isn't a quick thing as it takes time to plan, finalise and then you have to get the logistics in place which that is a nightmare by itself beyond even slannesh drukari hybrid pleasure pits!

 

As it stands, the best advice I can give: Do you like them? If you enjoy your models then don't stop using them. Pro tip: If they axe firstborns, all your Firstborns just become Primaris Intercessors and such, just "older versions of them". So don't worry.

[Evil Eye]

I maintain the only way existing Firstborn models will be discontinued is when they inevitably redo them like they did the CSMs so they can sell you Tactical Marines again.   Even GW isn't stupid enough to axe a vast majority of their longest-running and most popular product line.

[jaxom]

 

I would not invest in firstborn except for conversion bits.

 

Similarly, I would advise against starting or buying ANY older squad set, ie: cadians, ork boys, eldar etc are a terrible investment.

What

 

There are plastic sprues that are over 20 years old, like gaunts. Telling someone to sit on their hands on the off chance that the range is updated is bad advice, especially for any potential xenos players.

 

 

I think the older plastics are okay and a relatively safe kit. Even if they are replaced/upgraded there will be enough overlap that they'll be compatible on the table (for example, new Necron Warriors vs Old Necron Warriors). I don't think any other range will have the same scale-up issue that Space Marines had. Where I, personally, would be very hesitant would be armies or list ideas that rely on the current finecast kits. I can't imagine starting an Eldar army at the moment because the Aspect Warrior range is so... ugh.

[Noserenda]

I mean the whole reason we have Primaris is because old marines were not meeting sales expectations for various reasons and Primaris asploded those numbers like they were grots in front of a stormlord, theyll keep the moulds going a few yearsuntil those sales drop to a trickle then scrap them, i deeply doubt we will ever see another tiny marine that isnt a promo or spin off like HH.

[Robbienw]

I maintain the only way existing Firstborn models will be discontinued is when they inevitably redo them like they did the CSMs so they can sell you Tactical Marines again. Even GW isn't stupid enough to axe a vast majority of their longest-running and most popular product line.

Exactly this. They are far to iconic and part of the fabric of 40k to be disposed of forever. Every if they went to a pre-great rift version specialist game/historical version of 40k. GW always revisits classic models and ideas in a cyclical fashion.

 

It’s definitely still safe to buy them anyway as many of the classic marine kits are not very old and technologically up to date.

 

For me the one to avoid would be IG infantry. We have strong signals of new Catachans already with the 2 special models, and a cadian update is almost inevitable. It’s been 6 years since a major release for IG/AM, I think they will soon be revisiting Guard infantry.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Robbienw

[Lucerne]

I maintain the only way existing Firstborn models will be discontinued is when they inevitably redo them like they did the CSMs so they can sell you Tactical Marines again.   Even GW isn't stupid enough to axe a vast majority of their longest-running and most popular product line.

Based on new art, it looks like they're stupid enough to turn them into Intercessors with different hats instead and delete the options and unique features, so the future of the Tactical Squad is looking like they're an endangered species. I'd hold off on LSM and pray they give them a sendoff with a CSM squad- or buy Heroes series 1 models for something like kill team.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Lucerne