CSM in 9th ed- what will you use

[Kain Mor]

After some of the very prohibitive point raises we already got, I’m not optimistic that the coming huff to 2 wounds and the accompanying point increase won’t be crippling. Warp talons already went up near 90%, and they’re likely to go up another handful of points.

 

Also, they’re going to loose a lot of their damage output if lightning claws don’t become D2 for one reason or another.

[Varizel]

 

I've done the math and chain axes and swords are about equal vs t4 but axes win vs t5,9,10 iirc. I think they still have a place for the nominal cost of 1 ppm.

 

But yea I agree I will also be bring 2-4 CS models in a full squad. Helps mitigate the risk of being tarpitted.

 

Edit-my squad will change slightly.. Cbplas/pf champ, 2 rcc base. But 3 of the bolters will become CS.

For min squads I'm not sure anything will change.

 

That said if I run night lords then 2 csm combat squads can become like assault intercessors on the cheap with potential for twin claws or pf. Pretty cool taking functional assault troops from non WE troops section.

 

What does "2 rcc base" mean?  

 

It is pretty baller to see regular CSM being equal to or better than assault intercessors in combat.  Word Eater CSM with chainswords might even better in many situations. 

 

If possessed goto 3 wounds I think chaos space marines will be in very good shape even with the current awful codex.   

 

rcc probably means Reaper Chain Cannon. CMIIW though.

 

I still probably gonna keep the equipment for CSM as melee only or Bolter only. I might however give Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of Excess on the bolter guys though instead of Icon of Vengeance like i'm using right now.

[Marshal Loss]

EC were already looking good and they're in an even better spot now. They can run Terminators in pretty much any fashion you so choose - mass plasma, bolter, flamer, melta, kitted out with cc weapons or kept cheap - and excel at all of them. I only have 5 Terminators in my EC and am seriously looking at adding an extra box.

 

obligatory GIVE ME NOISE MARINE MODELS GW

[Khornestar]

Merged the two threads from the front page; identical topics within days of each other. Great discussion, so far!

[Brom MKIV]

 

 

I've done the math and chain axes and swords are about equal vs t4 but axes win vs t5,9,10 iirc. I think they still have a place for the nominal cost of 1 ppm.

 

But yea I agree I will also be bring 2-4 CS models in a full squad. Helps mitigate the risk of being tarpitted.

 

Edit-my squad will change slightly.. Cbplas/pf champ, 2 rcc base. But 3 of the bolters will become CS.

For min squads I'm not sure anything will change.

 

That said if I run night lords then 2 csm combat squads can become like assault intercessors on the cheap with potential for twin claws or pf. Pretty cool taking functional assault troops from non WE troops section.

 

What does "2 rcc base" mean?  

 

It is pretty baller to see regular CSM being equal to or better than assault intercessors in combat.  Word Eater CSM with chainswords might even better in many situations. 

 

If possessed goto 3 wounds I think chaos space marines will be in very good shape even with the current awful codex.   

 

rcc probably means Reaper Chain Cannon. CMIIW though.

 

I still probably gonna keep the equipment for CSM as melee only or Bolter only. I might however give Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of Excess on the bolter guys though instead of Icon of Vengeance like i'm using right now.

 

Yea sorry RCC = reaper chaincannon. I was phone posting.

 

 

On warp talons I would be surprised if they saw a pts increase seeing as they already cost 1 arm 1 leg. But lets say they did go up the standard 20% GW stated for tacs.. so thats 19 ppm = 29 ppm with claws. But gain double wounds. I would definitely still take them. Talons are nasty and don't need to DS now since the board shrunk approximately 25%. Even with a pts hike they would be much cheaper than 5 zerks in a rhino.  

[Doom Herald]

What about Flamer Raptors for infantry clearers? A 5-man squad with 2 flamers and combi-bolter on champ (because apparently tacking a bolter on a bolter cost 3pts and a bolter on any other weapon cost nothing but with a flamer it's 5pts) would put out 2d6 guaranteed hits and 6 more you roll for at S4, followed with a charge for 6 more at the same strength and 10 more with the new chainsword profile. Round it out with the -1Ld for raptors and the fact that there's a good chance you knocked them below half strength. Night Lords or Emperor's Children would do it even better with improved charge and maybe even KHORNE icon with NL to help the charge.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I've put together the WE list I'm going to start building toward once my current project is done, and it looks as follows:

 

Terminator Lord with Berserker Glave and Combi-Melta, True Berserker warlord trait

Exulted Champion with Gorefather

Dark Apostle with +1 attack banner, Khorne prayer and +3 attacks prayer, 2 buddies included

 

3x10  Cultests with melee weapons (going to make them out of escaped prisoner models)

2x10 Berserkers with chain axe and sword, champion has a power fist and sword

2x rhinos

 

3x Hellforged Contemptors with double claws and double flamers

10 Red Butcher terminators all with power fists, 8 with flamers, 2 with heavy flamers

 

Kill Maim Burn! Kill Maim Burn! Kill Maim Burn! 

[Snazzy]

The increase in Flamer range to 12 inches seems like a huge mistake waiting to happen.  Hurray for us, i guess.  Combi-Flamers are overpriced already.  The thought of Terminators deep striking with Combi-Flamers, auto hitting and still tossing 2 Bolter shots out to 24 inches, and being to do it all over again with Endless Cacophony is disturbing.  Then again, we're going to be hit with similar non-sense from Loyalists.

[Kain Mor]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've done the math and chain axes and swords are about equal vs t4 but axes win vs t5,9,10 iirc. I think they still have a place for the nominal cost of 1 ppm.

 

But yea I agree I will also be bring 2-4 CS models in a full squad. Helps mitigate the risk of being tarpitted.

 

Edit-my squad will change slightly.. Cbplas/pf champ, 2 rcc base. But 3 of the bolters will become CS.

For min squads I'm not sure anything will change.

 

That said if I run night lords then 2 csm combat squads can become like assault intercessors on the cheap with potential for twin claws or pf. Pretty cool taking functional assault troops from non WE troops section.

What does "2 rcc base" mean?

 

It is pretty baller to see regular CSM being equal to or better than assault intercessors in combat. Word Eater CSM with chainswords might even better in many situations.

 

If possessed goto 3 wounds I think chaos space marines will be in very good shape even with the current awful codex.

rcc probably means Reaper Chain Cannon. CMIIW though.

 

I still probably gonna keep the equipment for CSM as melee only or Bolter only. I might however give Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of Excess on the bolter guys though instead of Icon of Vengeance like i'm using right now.

Yea sorry RCC = reaper chaincannon. I was phone posting.

 

 

On warp talons I would be surprised if they saw a pts increase seeing as they already cost 1 arm 1 leg. But lets say they did go up the standard 20% GW stated for tacs.. so thats 19 ppm = 29 ppm with claws. But gain double wounds. I would definitely still take them. Talons are nasty and don't need to DS now since the board shrunk approximately 25%. Even with a pts hike they would be much cheaper than 5 zerks in a rhino.

Talons loose a fairly significant portion of their value if you don’t deepstrike them as they give up one of the two special abilities that they have over raptors.

And even at two wounds, being willing to pay near 30 points for a model that is also loosing 50% of its killing power against marines is laughable

[MegaVolt87]

I wonder if units like warp talons get their LC's just rolled into the base cost, mabye at a small discount. Might be a bit spendy to try and fit bikes and raptors/talons in the same list. Still, outflank/ DS raptors are looking interesting.

[Brom MKIV]

Until 2w and ap1 chainswords are real raptors are trash brother. I've tried them and even as NL they're purely a fluff unit. Even at full strength their weak.

 

Talons special power is being jumps with paired LCs and access to all our strats and dttfe.

 

I can say talons are still good. Maybe even better now and I ran them in 8th as several different legions and always deep struck. Now they can impact the board state from the start. And their special rule really doesn't matter now. If it does say vs ultras or tau then by all means it's a tool in the box. Try em.

[Kain Mor]

Oh I’m fully aware raptors are complete garbage, my point was that deploying warp talons wastes 50% of their special rules and basically makes them slightly less trash raptors.

[Brom MKIV]

Haha ya if were being honest talons aren't competitive.

On a 4 tier scale I'd put them at 3. Raptors are definitely bottom tier.

 

My quick rating scale might be something like this:

Tier 1- competitive

Tier 2- competitive with conditions

Tier 3- playable with conditions and support

Tier 4- playable in friendly games

 

Unfortunately much of chaos falls into category 3.

[Snazzy]

Raptors do too many things, and not all of them welcomed. They jump, they deep strike, they inflict -1 Ld in melee.  I'd happily trade any two of those three factors to get a unit that is cheaper and more focused.  

[Brom MKIV]

Agreed. Once they get 2w and ap1 I think that all changes.. depending on the price. They could become a premier assault unit especially for NL players. 

[BrainFireBob]

Haarken becomes interesting.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I used to FO my trip-flamer Raptors. Now I don't have to...but I still might because it's worth it more to land a chsrge.

[Marshal Loss]

Don't see raptors becoming a top-tier assault unit as currently stands, even with +1W & the AP change to chainswords, assuming a price increase in line with other units

[Scribe]

I'm close to going back to my old stand by. Assuming MEQ is viable, and Rhino's are playable, I'll be in my happy place. :p

[Snazzy]

Haarken becomes interesting.

 

No.  No he doesn't.  I want him to work more than anyone, but no.  A Lord with Jump Pack is so much better.

[Doom Herald]

 

 

Haarken becomes interesting.

No. No he doesn't. I want him to work more than anyone, but no. A Lord with Jump Pack is so much better.

Not if you're fighting Imperium. Re-roll all hits in a raptor squad with Icon of Excess. DttFE on 5+ (hopefully it will be an extra hit instead of extra attack in the new Codex), re-roll everything not DttFE.

[BrainFireBob]

Yes. And he's cheap and isn't a lord.

[Snazzy]

 

 

Haarken becomes interesting.

No. No he doesn't. I want him to work more than anyone, but no. A Lord with Jump Pack is so much better.

Not if you're fighting Imperium. Re-roll all hits in a raptor squad with Icon of Excess. DttFE on 5+ (hopefully it will be an extra hit instead of extra attack in the new Codex), re-roll everything not DttFE.

 

 

I take it back.  I hadn't thought of intentionally rerolling hits.

 

Yes. And he's cheap and isn't a lord.

 

Him not being a Chaos Lord is my biggest problem.  He doesn't qualify for Council of Traitors.  We don't have an easy 4th HQ slot, so something has to give.  He will also only get his own Warlord Trait if he is the actual Warlord, which disqualifies Council of Traitors.

[BrainFireBob]

True. I was looking toward the possibility of Lords going 0-1

[MegaVolt87]

I've put together the WE list I'm going to start building toward once my current project is done, and it looks as follows:

 

Terminator Lord with Berserker Glave and Combi-Melta, True Berserker warlord trait

Exulted Champion with Gorefather

Dark Apostle with +1 attack banner, Khorne prayer and +3 attacks prayer, 2 buddies included

 

3x10  Cultests with melee weapons (going to make them out of escaped prisoner models)

2x10 Berserkers with chain axe and sword, champion has a power fist and sword

2x rhinos

 

3x Hellforged Contemptors with double claws and double flamers

10 Red Butcher terminators all with power fists, 8 with flamers, 2 with heavy flamers

 

Kill Maim Burn! Kill Maim Burn! Kill Maim Burn!

 

For the moment, powerfist and chainfists are the same points, chuck in x3 chainfists on those termi's.