MSU vs 10 strong squads?

[HighMarshalAmp]

With MSU being the new hotness in 9th, I find myself in a pickle.

I had planned to take 10 woman squads of Dominions and Retributors, maxing out the special weaponry and ablative wounds.

 

My choice of units isn't what I want to discuss here, I know that favoring Retributors over Exorcists is questionable at best and I will get 3 Exorcists sooner or later, I just want to try a Bolter and Heavy Bolter spam list and thus, Retributors it is.

 

Now, I'm tempted to go 5-5 instead because everyone seems to be doing it and MSU has obvious advantages that have been discussed at length for month.

 

But:

Those 5 and 5 would end up rather close together anyway.

Also, any stratagem would only benefit half the number of special weapons - unless I max out the special weapons in the 5 woman squads as well, completely forgoing ablative wounds.

Even with half the number of special weapons per squad though, unsaved wounds would far sooner cost me a flashy gun as well.

And Morale? Sisters are good where morale is concerned, I'd reckon. By the time I lose a Heavy Bolter to attrition in a 10 woman squad, a squad of 5 would have been wiped anyway.

Add to that the rule of 3 (Is it still a thing right now? If not, I'm sure it comes back eventually.) and it's having 15 bodies move up the field early on instead of 30.

That leaves blast weapons, and if a blast weapon hones in on my T3 non-VH sisters, be it 5 of them or 10, they're toast anyway, right?

 

Am I just thinking wishfully or is maxing out the squad an option here?

[Lemondish]

I will preface this with stating I do not have enough experience with 9th edition to provide any strong suggestions. I do know that it is probably easiest to just say that on paper MSU is better than anything else, but I'm not so sure that's the case even on paper. 

 

So here's the thing, all of what you said is true, but my main suggestion here is that if you are going to MSU, I don't think you have the flexibility here to really rely on ablative wounds. Your Dominions aren't that valuable if they just end up being vanguard move BSS squads with 2 storm bolters, for example. I believe higher numbers in squads is useful for those units that are there with a particular purpose in mind. They're usually there to cause damage and push your will onto your opponent, so you either want ablative wounds or you just want more damage output. But in both cases, the above reasons are why you exceed the minimum squad size. Repentia are a fantastic example of a unit that you would want to maximize in numbers because it often doesn't make sense not to. 

 

I feel the same is likely true of Dominions where you want to keep the SBs up as long as you can for Blessed Bolts. Perhaps also the case for Retributors. But ultimately I think the real answer is that the purpose you outline for your damage dealing units really needs to factor into you determining their squad size.

 

Keep in mind...

• Rule of 3 is now an explicit rule for all of matched play, no longer hiding in the 'tournament organizer' suggestion section
• Blast weapons are extremely over valued and the fear for them is unwarranted. You'll see folks bandy about with the percentage improvements on D3 weapons in particular without recognizing the important part - we're talking about on average 1 additional shot that still needs to wound and pass an invuln and often a FNP roll
• 10 sister squads look awesome on the table
• Ablative wounds, especially resilient ones, are of value if the purpose you're bringing a unit for must rely on durability to get its job done - if you're just there to fire and forget, then there's no real reason to bring along more bodies

[MegaVolt87]

I would ask how weapon comps are for your MSU vs 10 man. We CSM players had the 11 point troop as well in 8th, but our MSU works because we can take a combi weapon with a heavy/ special etc. Can you leverage more firepower + area control by doing MSU? 

[EmperorGTank]

In MSU or 10+ squads we can always take 1 special,1 heavy, 1 combi, or 2 special, 1 combi. It's part of the reason I usually do MSU storm bolters and then either just stick bolters or a combi melta on the superior for extra punch, but that combi weapon is pretty occasional on the base squads. I, like a good number on here, usually take my heavy hitting stuff on Doms or Rets. I definitely LIKE the look of 10 woman BSS squads on the table but unless it's a super narrative game I stick to the 5.

 

I do realize, however, that ablative wounds for the specials and heavies are good and useful, but I also agree that unless you're using Multi Melta Rets castled up and need them to survive to either get Storm of Retribution off or get within the 24" normal threat range, your goal with the specialist squads is damage, not really durability. Personally I usually take a HB Ret squad, put them in a ruin and have them clear hordes or screens. They are cheap enough and I like that extra long range firepower, though I have not played a single game in 9th yet so please take all that I say with salt.

[tvih]

I don't think units of 10 are that bad. There's not THAT much blast in most armies, and especially weapons with 1D3 shots aren't that common as to get automatically maxed. 3D3 would still just be 3 shots total guaranteed, as it stands. For D6 shots weapons? Well, the average is 3.5 shots anyway, while with the blast rule it'd be 4. The increase in number of shots per weapon therefore isn't exactly massive. Given how expensive some of the heavy weapons can be, like multimeltas, I feel the benefit of taking the protective ablative wounds can easily be bigger than the risk of added shots from blasts.