Character choices in 9th?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So what charecters are people thinking of taking now are ability to take extra detachments is heavily limited?
ATM I'm leaning towards lord of some kind, sorcerer of some kind and a dark apostle of some kind, but would love to know if anyone thinks the less buffing options such as master of executions,exalted champions outside of dedicated melee lists ext can be useful/worth the trade.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

At this point I'm thinking Terminator Lord and two sorcerers. I rely heavily on psychic powers for a boost and I want to take some advantage in field testing the Stargate.

[nanosquid]

I'm going to be experimenting. Right now, I plan to run 2 patrols for 4 of each slot with minimal CP tax. Currently, the plan is Lord, Sorcerer, Master of Posession, and Lord Discordant. I'm actually running the noctilith crown as well, now, so both of those guys are way more likely to stick the landing with their psychic powers. Time will tell if it's viable.

[dice4thedicegod]

I’m just a little worried about them trying to port the loyalist marine restriction over to us (max 1 captain per detachment). I need more chaos lords!

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Terminators have gotten nicer due to their points not really changing, and smaller board means they are more likely to be in range to do things. I've always been interested in the terminator lords with relic combi bolters. They can do a lot for their cost. But we also need Sorcs.

 

If footslogging lists were more viable, terminator HQs would be great.

[MegaVolt87]

I’m just a little worried about them trying to port the loyalist marine restriction over to us (max 1 captain per detachment). I need more chaos lords!

 

That would kill us. We don't have the variety of HQ variants. eg- termi DA, termi exalt (our Lt) etc. We lost our bike lord, demonic mounts. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

I’m just a little worried about them trying to port the loyalist marine restriction over to us (max 1 captain per detachment). I need more chaos lords!

That would kill us. We don't have the variety of HQ variants. eg- termi DA, termi exalt (our Lt) etc. We lost our bike lord, demonic mounts.

I assume your usual suspects don't allow Legends then. Pity.

[BrainFireBob]

I am thinking Council of Traitors has gained a buff.

[MegaVolt87]

The potential change of no character double/triple ups to force a narrative is actually anti narrative when you think about it. Double/ trip lords could be one alpha dude with strong underlings, lords sole survivors joining up to a warband for somewhere to belong, lords in waiting to split a warband that has swelled in number (WB's do this notably) etc. 

[Brom MKIV]

The potential change of no character double/triple ups to force a narrative is actually anti narrative when you think about it. Double/ trip lords could be one alpha dude with strong underlings, lords sole survivors joining up to a warband for somewhere to belong, lords in waiting to split a warband that has swelled in number (WB's do this notably) etc. 

I missed this memo what is that about?

 

For my choices I'll be trimming the fat a bit which I can get elsewhere. So for starters I'm seriously considering no more disco. Sucks but we can access solid dreads elsewhere. Sui lords/smash lords etc also will be excluded. And with that any extraneous 'for fun' characters I enjoyed.. such as warpsmiths, additional sorcerers and so on.

 

That leaves me currently brewing with TDA sorcerer, winged DP, 3rd slot- likely a legends biker lord for now. If he doesn't perform then MOP or disco might make their way in.. depending on list construction.

[MegaVolt87]

 

The potential change of no character double/triple ups to force a narrative is actually anti narrative when you think about it. Double/ trip lords could be one alpha dude with strong underlings, lords sole survivors joining up to a warband for somewhere to belong, lords in waiting to split a warband that has swelled in number (WB's do this notably) etc. 

I missed this memo what is that about?

 

For my choices I'll be trimming the fat a bit which I can get elsewhere. So for starters I'm seriously considering no more disco. Sucks but we can access solid dreads elsewhere. Sui lords/smash lords etc also will be excluded. And with that any extraneous 'for fun' characters I enjoyed.. such as warpsmiths, additional sorcerers and so on.

 

That leaves me currently brewing with TDA sorcerer, winged DP, 3rd slot- likely a legends biker lord for now. If he doesn't perform then MOP or disco might make their way in.. depending on list construction.

 

 

You know of rule of three? Now imagine a rule of one except its for HQ characters. 

[Brom MKIV]

Ugh that sounds horrible. Not that I spam generally.. But I'd like to reserve the right to if I feel like it.

Not to mention I think this hurts non loyalist armies a bit more.

 

Is there a reference for this I can check out?

[Doctor Perils]

I believe it was mentioned in the codex astartes and Necrons preview thread - it seems CAPTAINS and LIEUTENANTS are limited to 1 and 2 per detachment respectively

 

Not sure if they'd do the same for chaos, it just seems overly organised which doesn't fit their style as much

[Brom MKIV]

I found the mention of it. Seems more like a codex compliant thing really.

And good riddance to smash captains if that's the case. Means less of those mortal wound ignoring new captains too.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Honestly they should be restricting Daemon Princes to one per army, and maybe Chaos Lords too (or at least 1 per detachment.) But then they should change their stats/points to reflect that, and move some of our other characters to Elite slots, or otherwise expand elite characters.

 

Chaos Lords ought to be Chapter Master equivalent (full re-rolls). But we should also have a chaos Lt statline that's more like the current lord.

[Cheex]

The potential change of no character double/triple ups to force a narrative is actually anti narrative when you think about it. Double/ trip lords could be one alpha dude with strong underlings, lords sole survivors joining up to a warband for somewhere to belong, lords in waiting to split a warband that has swelled in number (WB's do this notably) etc. 

 

Isn't that what an Exalted Champion is supposed to be?

 

Of course, we are lacking Terminator and Jump options, but that's pretty much the fluff for an Exalted Champion.

 

We also have no idea if this is even happening, let alone how it's supposedly being implemented, so not much point fretting about it now.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Cheex

[Snazzy]

I am thinking Council of Traitors has gained a buff.

 

You'd think so, but the real fun of it was running two detachments, one of them being Bringers of Despair, and using Field Commander for 4 WLTs.  Abaddon has a fixed WT, Haarken doesn't count as a Chaos Lord (but Obsidius Mallex does) and it eats up all of your HQ slots up to a Battalion.  Sometimes i want to run an Exalted Champ, and to do so i have to not take a Sorc or DA and forgo the 3rd WLT, while not being able to give the Exalted Champ a WLT, himself.  What we really need is a generic 1 CP for extra WLT.

[Doom Herald]

Daemon Princes are already limited more than most other units due to the rule of 3 affecting all faction variations. I honestly don't see thematically a need to limit DPs further, unless you are going to group them with Chaos Lords and I really hate that idea. Loyalists have more options on their HQs. We are limited to 3 options if we want them to fly: Lord, DP, Sorcerer. Of the 3, two are realistically viable as melee combatants. Only Sorcerers and Lords can have Terminator armor. We have no Primaris, no variation of Dark Apostles (Chaplains), no variation of Exalted Champion (inferior Lt), no variations of our other HQs (which are largely ineffective). Because we have the same datasheet even for our jump variations we are already severely limited by the rule of 3. With the rule of 3 limit, the reduction of multiple HQ slots, and our relatively narrow datasheet pool of practical options I think limiting us further on HQs would be terrible. If our exalted champions and weaker HQs got a small upgrade and our non lord/sorcerers got Jump and Terminator options, I might have less issue with it, though I still wouldn't like it. Edited July 31, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I mean, rule of 3 isn't enough to limit DPs because the idea of having multiple Daemon Princes on the same battlefield outside of Apoc is silly and unthematic. (Although again, I think the unit would need some changes if this limit was put in place.)

 

Let's talk for a minute about what Chaos HQs should actually be like, based on the fluff. Chaos forces of all sorts have a lot of variation. Many Chaos Marines are weaker than their loyalist counterparts for one reason or another, and many are much stronger. Space Marine Captains are all fairly similar to power level, whereas Chaos leaders of all sorts can vary a lot. This is because the loyalist ranks are more specific, whereas chaos ranks are often more relative.

 

You can have a Chaos 'Lord' who is a human and weaker than a space marine, but all his followers are even weaker than him, for example.

 

A Chaos Space Marine Lord ought to cover everything from an SM Lt. all the way up to Abaddon level power. And Chaos Lords don't work together within the same faction unless forced to by an even more powerful Lord. The Lord is the most powerful in their current force. Pretty much the only time you'd see multiple Lords is if they're serving under Abaddon or a Primarch or a Daemon Prince, and even then that's Apoc level force org.

 

So, if we wanted to represent Chaos properly on the tabletop, what we need is a data sheet with lower base stats, but a looot of potential upgrades you can take. This is how it worked in 3.5. Start with a stat line below a SM captain, and allow upgrades up to above a SM Chapter Master. And limit 1 per faction, or put something like an extra command point penalty if you're running lords from multiple factions.

Then also have a Chaos Lt/Champion profile, which starts a little weaker than that, but can still upgrade pretty high.

 

Daemon Princes ought to have more combat power than a Lord, but less leader style stuff (buffing auras.) So the choice between Lord vs Prince is individual beatstick vs army benefiting stuff.

 

Also lets remember that 'sorcerer' used to be Sorcerer Lord as an HQ. You used to choose to give your Lord psychic powers or not. There should be Elite slot sorcerers as well that are weaker than our current Sorc HQ.

 

This is how things worked in the older books, and properly reflects how chaos works in the fluff. There should be a lot of options, and we should have beatstick, buff, and psychic characters in both HQ and Elite slots. But there should be restrictions on how many of the top end characters we can take.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Drudge Dreadnought

[Brom MKIV]

I could get behind some sort of a limit. BUT that's only if the current approach to csm was completely changed. With certain hq and few units propping up the faction the limits would just serve to cripple us so no thanks. Right now some spam is needed for competitive play. I wouldn't mind it changing but not without some love for other units to compensate.

[Doom Herald]

I severely miss the way CSM used to be. I forget which edition it was I started playing but I believe it was 5th or maybe 4th, I can't recall because I had a lot going on and had to take a hiatus shortly after. I do remember, though, that options abounded and while the Sorcerer and Lord were different datasheets, you could give both basicly the same upgrades and Daemon weapons that actually were worth it to Lords. You could make a truly terrifying HQ if you paid the points. Something like that for Lords would be would make me ok with a limit, again provided we get jump/terminator options on our other HQs.

 

As for thematics, we are at a point in the 40k timeline where the types of cooperation you are describing as unlikely would be happening. The Imperium is torn in two, Cadia has been destroyed, the Daemon Primarchs walk real space once again. The war against the False Emperor is being waged in earnest. Chaos marches, even if the robots are stealing the thunder.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I severely miss the way CSM used to be. I forget which edition it was I started playing but I believe it was 5th or maybe 4th, I can't recall because I had a lot going on and had to take a hiatus shortly after. I do remember, though, that options abounded and while the Sorcerer and Lord were different datasheets, you could give both basicly the same upgrades and Daemon weapons that actually were worth it to Lords. You could make a truly terrifying HQ if you paid the points. Something like that for Lords would be would make me ok with a limit, again provided we get jump/terminator options on our other HQs.

 

As for thematics, we are at a point in the 40k timeline where the types of cooperation you are describing as unlikely would be happening. The Imperium is torn in two, Cadia has been destroyed, the Daemon Primarchs walk real space once again. The war against the False Emperor is being waged in earnest. Chaos marches, even if the robots are stealing the thunder.

 

Must have still been the 3.5 codex in use during 4th ed, as the 5th ed codex (which came out right at the end of 4th) killed all those options and was the first of a now long line of super bland books.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

One way to alleviate the crunch in HQ choices is to move/give us some Elites character options. Apothecary, Ancient, i think the new Judiciar are Elites; move the MoE, MoP, maybe Exalted Champ to Elites and we'd have more room to play with character combos.

[Brom MKIV]

So more like DG and Tsons..

Honestly I wouldn't like that except on maybe a few I don't care about anyway. Removing characters from taking mandatory hq slots is equally a down side from my perspective. Some just aren't good enough anymore or ever, even when filling mandatory. Now consider if they started taking up equally precious elites (only 2 in patrol) competing with things like contemptor dreads and terminators or cult troops. That could then force a battalion and thus more cultists/csm. 

[Khornestar]

One way to alleviate the crunch in HQ choices is to move/give us some Elites character options. Apothecary, Ancient, i think the new Judiciar are Elites; move the MoE, MoP, maybe Exalted Champ to Elites and we'd have more room to play with character combos.

I am torn, because the Elites slot is filled with things I’d like to take as well, and we largely lack the ability to take “squadrons” of helbrutes, contemptors, etc..