DA in 40k, past, present and future (indomitus) + supplement

[solarisqc]

What are DA in 40k and where is it going

 

This post is mostly to make a brief overview of my vision of our chapter and how the supplement need to be to keep the soul of our chapter alive.

 

in the past:

it's just a normal chapter for the most part, almost codex compliant for the company 3-10. the greenwing of DA are exactly the same as any other space marine chapter in 40k except marine are not trained in the use of bike and land speeder (in old fluff, all assault marine are trained for the use of bike and land speeder, and the 8th compagny can be fully mounted if need as the the codex dictated).

 

What make DA special is the first and second compagny, Deathwing and Ravenwing.

 

Deathwing are the first compagny, trained for the use of TDA, it regroup all the veteran of the chapter like any other chapter, but trained them to exclusively use TDA, they have dreadnought like all other and only use Land raider as transport

 

Ravenwing is the 2nd company, it regroup all the bike and speeder. 

 

Present:

Greenwing become more divergent from codex space marine for no logical reason. The DA greenwing lost because it didn't get acces to new unit and it make it inferior vs all codex chapter for no reason.

 

Deathwing keep his soul, it's still the fearless terminator we all know, got expanded with Deathwing knight and new type of Land raider and dreadnought

 

Ravenwing got updated, they expand to included the aircraft of the chapter and add new unit as blacknight and LS vengence. It become alot more than just the bike and speeder company.

 

Future (post codex and supplement):

Greenwing will probably become codex compliant again, i see no reason to not get sternguard and vanguard instesd of compagny veteran and there is no reason to have anything different for all primaris unit.

 

Deathwing: Huge clash here with the inclusion of non terminator in the deathwing with the bladeguard, it open the door to all kind of option, but also it risk to lose it soul and become the vet compagny like any other SM chapter.

 

Ravenwing: The inclusion of outrider in the ravenwing is just the logical step for progression of our chapter history. Ravenwing will come back to is base lore of been the bike/speeder compagny and later hey can expand it with specific unit in a couple of year.

 

 

Now, about our supplement:

 

The DA supplement need to keep it realy simple for the greenwing, DA have nothing special vs other chapter, maybe bring back the 3 sacred banner, but for the most part, they are no reason to put any focus on this part of our chapter.

 

It need to have something about inner circle/deathwing that are not part of the Company, but not lock behind CP, Please retcon the stupid DA master entry that are not part of the deathwing, I think at this point in time, all Primaris master need to be included in the deathwing or have perish in battle.

 

The supplement need to focus on the Deathwing and Ravenwing, it need to remove acces to similar unit in the SM codex like all terminator, bladeguard, bike, ATV and speeder and make specific Deathwing and Ravenwing datasheet for us.

 

For the vehicule, they don't need to change anything except for the flyer, keep the ban on normal SM flyer, keep the Ravenwing flyer and make the stormraven available because many player already have it, maybe part of the ravenwing, maybe not.

 

I know we are getting a DA supplement, but for me, it need to be Deathwing/Ravenwing focus because greenwing are/will be cover with the basic SM codex and all the specific DA  thing concerning the greenwing can be regroup in 1 page.

 

Discuss

[UtariOnzo]

I fully agree, and somewhat suspect that is the entire intention of rolling us into the main dex

[G8Keeper]

Just a point, we already had access to the Storm Raven.

 

I can live with non TDA Deathwing but only if they get the fluff right, not just "Oh Primaris can't fit into TDA".  In my head I have the Deathwing adopting more of the hexagrammaton roles, allowing for wider inclusion of armour and weapon types, obviously not including the Ravenwing.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Just a point, we already had access to the Storm Raven.

 

I can live with non TDA Deathwing but only if they get the fluff right, not just "Oh Primaris can't fit into TDA".  In my head I have the Deathwing adopting more of the hexagrammaton roles, allowing for wider inclusion of armour and weapon types, obviously not including the Ravenwing.

I agree, they can get the fluff right and then it might work out. There are some practical questions they have to answer now with making DA a supplement. With the rules in the SM codex, you will be able to field a successor chapter. This means they need to make them playable, including the Ultima founding ones.

 

Fluff-wise, the Ultima founding chapters are highly likely to be reorganized to be Unforgiven chapters now. If I remember correctly, in Vigilus, the Blades of Vengeance are deployed alongside the Dark Angels and Consecrators. It would make sense that this would be an example of them being inducted, trained and reorganized along those lines.

 

So they had to make a choice with the Deathwing. When I thought about it, I think they made the correct one with what is there. I much prefer the Bladeguard to shoehorning gravis. Gravis is already duplicated in the Greenwing, so the choice made means there's still a clear separation of roles. Aesthetic-wise, they are similar to the Deathwing companions they are doing in 30k, so there is some crossover in vision there.

Edited July 30, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Grand Master Raziel]

I never was too bothered by DA Masters not automatically getting the Inner Circle rule because it does almost nothing. I also don't particularly care what me not paying CP to give them Inner Circle says about them. Fluffwise, to me they're part of the Inner Circle whether or not I choose to spend that CP.

Fun little tidbit - if you buy a Master in Terminator Armor, he gets the Inner Circle rule and Deathwing keyword as part of the points price. No CP expenditure needed.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Grand Master Raziel

[WrathOfTheLion]

Interesting to me as well is that a Primaris Unforgiven chapter is almost entirely playable now with the current set of kits. The Greenwing can be played, as can the Deathwing with the Bladeguard kits that are currently released. The Ravenwing, however, is missing a few pieces, with no ability to field officers for the company.

Edited July 30, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[jaxom]

The biggest, best, hopefully will happen change is the ability to focus on the Chapter as a whole. Getting rid of the core unit lore entries and datasheets frees up space to look at each company (like the other supplements). More than 80% of the Chapter gets next to no attention. This relates to one of my long-running gripes about how the Dark Angels have been handled for a while now (I think The Purging of Kadillus is the only exception in at least ten years). The Chapter, as a whole, has been presented as remarkably bland because so much print (Codex and BL books) focuses on the first two companies and/or the dynamic of Battle-Brothers/Inner Circle/Fallen paranoia "Do they know? Mind-wipe to be sure!" craziness. Heck, even Ritual of the Damned  was all like, "Magnus is bad, but really we just want to make sure the Grey Knights don't know anything about our seeeeeeeeecrets."

 

I hope there aren't any Dark Angel specific Primaris units for two reasons that both come back to this core idea: How the Dark Angels organize and use codex units can provide more flavor and unique identity compared to a special Dark Angel only unit. The first is that it forces the Dark Angels to have the same level of development in how their character impacts what they do with universal units instead of noping out and relying on unique model units ("how do Dark Angels, the most intractable, annihilate the enemy, chapter use Devastator Centurions? They don't! But, hey, have another Land Speeder variant because plasma makes the Dark Angel players shut right up!"). The second is that all of the currently existing unique units are heritage units from the pre-Chapter days using rare, pre-Chapter weapons. I, personally, don't see why the Dark Angels would have a unique Primaris unit. "We could have Primaris Stormwing, return to the Hexagrammaton!" Awesome, great, but that doesn't require unique kits. Bladeguard? Deathwing. Aggressors and Assault Intercessors? Stormwing. Eliminators and Reivers? Firewing. Repulsors and the like? Ironwing. Outriders and Invaders? Ravenwing. Eradicators? Dreadwing. Even without any reference to the Hexagrammaton there's loads of ways to work with what's available.

 

How does an average strike force operate; one without any Ravenwing or Deathwing attached? How important are Assault Squads, Scout Bikers, and Suppressors, and mechanised infantry when companies don't always have ready access to bikers and land speeders? How does the rest of the Chapter adapt or plan when they know that their First Company and Second Company support elements may disappear from a operational zone with no explanation other than orders from above said so?

[Berzul]

I kind of agree with you, jaxom.

 

The DW and the RW, being the special part of the army, at the same time consume most of whatever the chapter is about. The greenwing gets very little development overall, and the army has shifted from being "focused" on a specific form of organization, into having "uniqueness" within some parts of said organization.

 

I think the Primaris range being "finished" eventually, and the fading away of the Firstborn, might indeed be taken by GW as an opportunity to try and make the army more in line with that sentiment. That is, less about "unique units" and more about "a special way of organization".

[WrathOfTheLion]

I agree to some degree, although not entirely. With the current chapter organization, there is unique stuff that they need to have in order to function properly.

 

For example, the vast majority of the Ravenwing would be the standard outrider and the storm speeders. As the Ravenwing is organized as a space marine company, it would require the things that a company has, which would be:

* A company veteran squad

* A champion

* An ancient

* An apothecary

* Lieutenants (Talonmasters)

* A master (Sammael, or separate if not DA proper)

 

That can essentially be Sammael, a command squad and an HQ (Talonmaster/Master) kit.

[bigtrouble]

The specific unique ability that they will need to address for the Deathwing I think is teleportation. DW are the smash and grab shock troops, and blade guard or aggressors fill the battlefield role of heavy infantry but as of yet Primaris don’t get the teleport homer synergy. If they address that in the supplement, that will be a big step.

[Berzul]

Well, GW can go one of two ways:

Change the model range
Change the lore

 

I am betting that they will make the lore change, creating a Deathwing that no longer acts the way the old Deathwing did. With teleporting being replaced with just transports.

[WrathOfTheLion]

They may add teleport strategems or an ability for Deathwing. In HH for instance, terminators can only do it in the Orbital Assault RoW.

 

So they may add that as a specific rule to Deathwing infantry models for example.

[Grand Master Raziel]

So, here's a thought that just occurred to me. We've been lead to believe Bladeguard are going to be part of the Deathwing. The standard bearer in the Indomitus box set is a Bladeguard Ancient, thus leading me to believe he'd also be a Deathwing member.  That suggests he ought to be eligible to carry the Pennant of Remembrance. RAW that can't be done, because the Pennant entry specifies the Deathwing Ancient. However, it's not much of a leap to think that the Bladeguard Ancient ought to be able to carry it too.

[jaxom]

So, here's a thought that just occurred to me. We've been lead to believe Bladeguard are going to be part of the Deathwing. The standard bearer in the Indomitus box set is a Bladeguard Ancient, thus leading me to believe he'd also be a Deathwing member.  That suggests he ought to be eligible to carry the Pennant of Remembrance. RAW that can't be done, because the Pennant entry specifies the Deathwing Ancient. However, it's not much of a leap to think that the Bladeguard Ancient ought to be able to carry it too.

 

Makes sense. It will be interesting to see if/how the design team decides to re-shuffle Deathwing and Ravenwing relics that are currently gated to 8th edition characters. An apothecary and ancient with the Deathwing keyword existed because Deathwing Apothecary and Deathwing Ancient (nee Deathwing Command Squad) models existed. Will Deathwing relics be terminator only or expanded to models like the Bladeguard Ancient and the Primaris Apothecary? Will there be Primaris Interrogator-Chaplains (who crossed the Rubicon)? Etc.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think they will do Interrogator-Chaplains, as they would also do things like Sanguinary Priests, etc.

 

The way I think about how they may approach it is what is needed for them to function.

 

Both the Deathwing and Ravenwing are Companies, hence why they have a command squad. They each have the elements thereof that a main SM company has, notably the company troops, an ancient, an apothecary, a champion, possibly now 2 LTs (for DW), veterans and a master.

 

Some of this may well be covered by the base range, as we can see with the Bladeguard ancient, bladeguard veterans, and the Bladeguard LT for Deathwing. Whether all of that is to be filled out in 9e, I don't know.

[Berzul]

Do you think perhaps the Interrogators might become a Stratagem Upgrade on a regular Chaplain, in the future?

[WrathOfTheLion]

Separate datasheet with a model, I think they're too iconic. The BA similarly have the Sanguinary Priest. They did go out of the way to make sure we had a Primaris Master kit.

 

Judging from the Veteran Intercessor move from Strategem to actual datasheet, I think they're avoiding doing that. From a game perspective, it's harder to balance expending a CP to essentially affect what should be in points/power level.

[WrathOfTheLion]

If they're focusing on Deathwing and Ravenwing, they should have more room to do things with them.

 

From what I've seen, it looks like the Bladeguard LT is meant to be Deathwing. If that's the case and the Deathwing fields LTs now, then perhaps we will see DW Terminator LTs.

[G8Keeper]

If they're focusing on Deathwing and Ravenwing, they should have more room to do things with them.

 

From what I've seen, it looks like the Bladeguard LT is meant to be Deathwing. If that's the case and the Deathwing fields LTs now, then perhaps we will see DW Terminator LTs.

I could get behind that in a big way!

[Master Sheol]

If they're focusing on Deathwing and Ravenwing, they should have more room to do things with them.

 

From what I've seen, it looks like the Bladeguard LT is meant to be Deathwing. If that's the case and the Deathwing fields LTs now, then perhaps we will see DW Terminator LTs.

I wish so cause a DW Terminator lt would ne a nice modelling project

[jaxom]

 

If they're focusing on Deathwing and Ravenwing, they should have more room to do things with them.

 

From what I've seen, it looks like the Bladeguard LT is meant to be Deathwing. If that's the case and the Deathwing fields LTs now, then perhaps we will see DW Terminator LTs.

I wish so cause a DW Terminator lt would ne a nice modelling project

 

 

Bear with me on this. All the fluff points towards Deathwing Knight Master's fulfilling that sort of role. However, they were kept in the unit in 8th edition. On one hand this made sense from a kit perspective (and helped keep the number of Elite slot characters down). On the other hand, the Custodes unit kits all have HQ/Elite character build options. The new Bladeguard Ancient is effectively an upgrade to a Bladeguard Veterans unit. What if, finally, the 9th edition DA codex has the Deathwing Knight Master as it's own thing, acting like the Talonmaster/Lieutenant/etc?

[Grand Master Raziel]

If I recall correctly, the reason the DAs have the whole 1rst Company entirely in Terminator armor is because the chapter happened to have an excess of TDA left over from the Great Crusade, more so than any other chapter. So, the DAs had the resources to put their whole 1rst Company in TDA when no other chapter could. 

The Primaris line makes that bit of fluff irrelevant, because the Primaris marines aren't compatible with equipment from the Great Crusade. Everyone is effectively starting from scratch with the Cawl-Guilliman line of equipment. We haven't seen a Primaris version of TDA - the closest so far has been Gravis armor, and it doesn't quite fit the bill, though it does seem to be a common element with most of the infantry units that pack special firepower. That's great and all, but the basic Terminator is more of an assault unit than a shooting unit, and even more so when upgraded with l-claws or THSS.

Now, let's look at Bladeguard. Effectively a 2+ 4++ assault unit. They don't quite pack the punch vs monsters Terminators do, but are better equipped to munch through light to mid-weight infantry and characters. And that being said, a +1 Str D2 weapon is nothing to sneeze at. I submit that as long as we can have Bladeguard Vets teleport into battle and use the Combined Assault strat, they'll stand in just fine for legacy Deathwing Terminators.  For my money, it's more that teleporting in off a Ravenwing homing beacon that makes the Deathwing the Deathwing, not universal TDA.

[Berzul]

Would them dropping in with a drop-pod, which itself is making use of a hommer, work as well?

[jaxom]

I think the Bladeguard come back to another issue which has been divisive in this forum over the past few years. How important is it that a Deathwing unit be part of the First Company FOC versus one meant to be attached to an individual or have a different function in the Chapter? Azrael, Asmodai, and Ezekial all have the DEATHWING keyword. Deathwing Veteran Sergeants in the Battle and Reserve companies were/are a thing.

 

How hardcore is a person on the matter of "Deathwing refers specifically to the First Company and Inner Circle should be used for everything else," compared to "Deathwing is the part of the Inner Circle and all the First Company veterans are members of that portion"? 

 

Personally, I lean towards the latter, but my primary influence is the 3rd edition codex. Did later versions of the codex stress something different? What works best moving forward?

[Berzul]

I like the idea of Deathwing include the 1st Company, over 1st Company include the Deathwing, very much.