DA in 40k, past, present and future (indomitus) + supplement

[Master Sheol]

I think the Bladeguard come back to another issue which has been divisive in this forum over the past few years. How important is it that a Deathwing unit be part of the First Company FOC versus one meant to be attached to an individual or have a different function in the Chapter? Azrael, Asmodai, and Ezekial all have the DEATHWING keyword. Deathwing Veteran Sergeants in the Battle and Reserve companies were/are a thing.

 

How hardcore is a person on the matter of "Deathwing refers specifically to the First Company and Inner Circle should be used for everything else," compared to "Deathwing is the part of the Inner Circle and all the First Company veterans are members of that portion"?

 

Personally, I lean towards the latter, but my primary influence is the 3rd edition codex. Did later versions of the codex stress something different? What works best moving forward?

Circles inside circles

Inner Circle is the one smaller circle in DA chapter and it Is include by the bigger DW circle

So all members of Inner Circle are DW too

 

There is consistency problems in the rules of 8th ed DA codex (Company Masters and Chapter Ancient should be DW but they dont have the appropriate rules) but of a unit is DW is DW period

[jaxom]

I don't disagree, but I've had forum members tell me quite... passionately... that if it wasn't in Terminator armour then it wasn't a member of the Deathwing.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

I don't disagree, but I've had forum members tell me quite... passionately... that if it wasn't in Terminator armour then it wasn't a member of the Deathwing.

Dark Angels have always been something of a "someday..." project for me.  I do have a few Angels of Redemption I painted when Dark Vengeance came out, but I've always wanted to do a proper Dark Angels force with a heavy emphasis on the knightly aesthetic, lots of check pattern, lots of hoods.

 

That all being said, since I've mainly just dabbled, I've never really felt too invested in the particulars of how the chapter is depicted regarding the Deathwing, so take my thoughts with that in mind.

 

The thing that I keep returning to is that GW is 100% aiming to retire the entire non-primaris line of marines, and terminators are part of that line.  That puts Deathwing on notice entirely as a concept unless 1. they introduce primaris terminators or 2. they redefine who is in Deathwing.

 

And since we've already seen non-terminator Deathwing introduced, it seems like they are going with option 2, which, if you're open to change, could be pretty exciting!

 

It seems to me--just from observing the moves GW has been making with Dark Angels of late--that they are using the introduction of Primaris as an opportunity to emphasize the "Legion in disguise" organization that DA and their successors have.  And the Hexagrammaton organization of the legion gives me a few hints at what they have in mind for the Deathwing and the future organization of Dark Angels in general. 

 

My guess is that they will integrate different aspects of the "wings" of the hexagrammaton into the current Dark Angels organization, not officially, but by implication.  So to me, it looks like by adding bladeguard to the Deathwing, they are taking the concept of the Stormwing and making the breacher/close quarters theme it has and integrating that into the modern Deathwing, which on paper really has a very similar function. 

 

And I think Deathwing will definitely emphasize the Inner Circle as the main distinction, rather than what armor mark is used. 

 

That being said, GIVE US PRIMARIS TERMINATORS! (have they shown MKIX armor yet?)

[jaxom]

 

My guess is that they will integrate different aspects of the "wings" of the hexagrammaton into the current Dark Angels organization, not officially, but by implication.  So to me, it looks like by adding bladeguard to the Deathwing, they are taking the concept of the Stormwing and making the breacher/close quarters theme it has and integrating that into the modern Deathwing, which on paper really has a very similar function. 

 

This, to me, is the key difference between whatever is coming next for the Dark Angels and any past iterations. We've seen how profound an influence the HH material can have on the modern interpretation/presentation of the First Founding Chapters. The HH material - in the comprehensive form of a FW book rather than the... erratic... form of BL - is/was available during codex development. 

[solarisqc]

I think it's to soon now to bring the HH background in the Dark Angel codex.

 

My guest is the next SM codex and the DA supplement will be to make our armies up to date and inline with all the other chapter but it will not add anything new and be minimal about the background for the inclusion of primaris.

 

Later, the next time we see a DA codex will be when the Lion wake up and it will be the perfect time for GW to shake up the DA structure. Until the Lion arrival, there is no need to make any change to DA structure. Inclusion of primaris to the Ravenwing and Deathwing is only a patch need to accomodate new player inside the DA codex structure and to promote primaris.

 

When the time come for the Lion (and Russ) to wake up, GW will not miss the opportunity to crash all our existing structure and built it anew (lets hope for the 6 wing) because the structure of the codex DA will not be what the Lion want for his son. I don't think we will ever see a DA codex (or Space Wolf) until the Primarch comeback.

 

I will not be surprise if they bring back the old fluff and when the Lion come back, Russ will return just after. The Lion and the Wolf will team together, and each will reshape his legion and not follow the astarte codex because it's the work of Gulliman and have nothing to do with them. I don't think they will raise arm against Gulliman, but they make it clear that they alone have the autority about the structure of the DA/SW Legion and Gulliman will not oppose them because he know you don't want to anger the Lion and the Wolf.

 

Until the return of our primarch, we are just a codex chapter trying to survive.

 

it's only when the Lion come back that THE FIRST LEGION will return.

[templarphoenix]

I am fine if the new lore explained it. I mean, we all know bladeguard can be deathwing for sure, but I need to know why these new deathwing boys wearing normal armour, not primaris TDA?

 

I am not accepting something like "because primaris cant fit in TDA" excuses, you are a deathwing, but not wearing TDA, you are left in the office to do all the paperwork.

[Gederas]

I am fine if the new lore explained it. I mean, we all know bladeguard can be deathwing for sure, but I need to know why these new deathwing boys wearing normal armour, not primaris TDA?

 

I am not accepting something like "because primaris cant fit in TDA" excuses, you are a deathwing, but not wearing TDA, you are left in the office to do all the paperwork.

Because we're going back to Legionnes Astartes styled stuff? And the Deathwing weren't solely Terminator-armoured in the I Legion?

[bigtrouble]

I think the Bladeguard come back to another issue which has been divisive in this forum over the past few years. How important is it that a Deathwing unit be part of the First Company FOC versus one meant to be attached to an individual or have a different function in the Chapter? Azrael, Asmodai, and Ezekial all have the DEATHWING keyword. Deathwing Veteran Sergeants in the Battle and Reserve companies were/are a thing.

 

How hardcore is a person on the matter of "Deathwing refers specifically to the First Company and Inner Circle should be used for everything else," compared to "Deathwing is the part of the Inner Circle and all the First Company veterans are members of that portion"? 

 

Personally, I lean towards the latter, but my primary influence is the 3rd edition codex. Did later versions of the codex stress something different? What works best moving forward?

My understanding is that Inner Circle means aware of the Fallen and possibly also the destruction of Caliban. This includes the librarius and select members of the Ravenwing. Deathwing are promoted members of the 1st Company or past members of the 1st company who at some time were trained in combat in Terminator armor, That could include veteran sergeants, masters, interrogators, or others. Inner circle is about knowledge, Deathwing is an official title of rank as well as a unit.

 

With the addition of Primaris the only thing that has changed seems to be that Deathwing does not also mean TDA now.

[templarphoenix]

 

 

I am fine if the new lore explained it. I mean, we all know bladeguard can be deathwing for sure, but I need to know why these new deathwing boys wearing normal armour, not primaris TDA?

 

I am not accepting something like "because primaris cant fit in TDA" excuses, you are a deathwing, but not wearing TDA, you are left in the office to do all the paperwork.

Because we're going back to Legionnes Astartes styled stuff? And the Deathwing weren't solely Terminator-armoured in the I Legion?

If it comes this way...then I am not buying these models unless they have dark angrl version, not just ultramarines in a different color.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

 

I am fine if the new lore explained it. I mean, we all know bladeguard can be deathwing for sure, but I need to know why these new deathwing boys wearing normal armour, not primaris TDA?

 

I am not accepting something like "because primaris cant fit in TDA" excuses, you are a deathwing, but not wearing TDA, you are left in the office to do all the paperwork.

Because we're going back to Legionnes Astartes styled stuff? And the Deathwing weren't solely Terminator-armoured in the I Legion?

 

Lol so much more concise than me, but exactly that.  The single-loadout style of Intercessors, hellblasters, etc. really make the intent of that clear, I mean, they have neo-volkite guns!!!

[Gederas]

I am fine if the new lore explained it. I mean, we all know bladeguard can be deathwing for sure, but I need to know why these new deathwing boys wearing normal armour, not primaris TDA?

 

I am not accepting something like "because primaris cant fit in TDA" excuses, you are a deathwing, but not wearing TDA, you are left in the office to do all the paperwork.

Because we're going back to Legionnes Astartes styled stuff? And the Deathwing weren't solely Terminator-armoured in the I Legion?

If it comes this way...then I am not buying these models unless they have dark angrl version, not just ultramarines in a different color.

Because it's so hard to modify a plastic model to taste, right?

 

 

I am fine if the new lore explained it. I mean, we all know bladeguard can be deathwing for sure, but I need to know why these new deathwing boys wearing normal armour, not primaris TDA?

 

I am not accepting something like "because primaris cant fit in TDA" excuses, you are a deathwing, but not wearing TDA, you are left in the office to do all the paperwork.

Because we're going back to Legionnes Astartes styled stuff? And the Deathwing weren't solely Terminator-armoured in the I Legion?

Lol so much more concise than me, but exactly that.  The single-loadout style of Intercessors, hellblasters, etc. really make the intent of that clear, I mean, they have neo-volkite guns!!!

Pretty much :lol: As soon as I saw the Hellblasters I said "That looks a lot like a Legion Tactical Support Squad armed with Plasma guns...."

 

The fact that the Dark Angels codex says they hearken back to the days of the Great Crusade where Dark Angels fielded entire squads armed with Plasma weaponry is what sealed Primaris being basically Legionnes Astartes 2.0 for me.

 

[JimVandy85]

Paint everything black, red and white in preparation for the Lion's return? Forget this green and bone stuff.

[Gederas]

Paint everything black, red and white in preparation for the Lion's return? Forget this green and bone stuff.

That's actually what I've been doing this entire time

Edited August 4, 2020 by Gederas

[JimVandy85]

 

 

 

 

Paint everything black, red and white in preparation for the Lion's return? Forget this green and bone stuff.

That's actually what I've been doing this entire time

Even though it's not lore correct, I want to paint my pile of shame up in 30k Dark Angels colors. That color scheme and grittiness is so amazingly awesome. I cannot wait for the new black book to come out with their information.

[Master Sheol]

I don't disagree, but I've had forum members tell me quite... passionately... that if it wasn't in Terminator armour then it wasn't a member of the Deathwing.

It's not correct

You are DW even if you are the master of the RW and you wear a PA and you fight on a jetbike or a LS

According to the lore (changing now) you MUST wear TDA if you are serving in the DW company

This is  bit tricky but the idea is that if a DW member serves inside the DW comapny he will wear TDA only (this is changing cause now we know that bladeguards wearing PA are DW too) but If you serve somewhere else in the chapter (Interrogators chaplain are DW, Librarians are DW, Company masters are DW, Master of the RW is DW, various Veteran Sergeants are DW, all members of the inner circle are DW, chapter ancient is DW) you may also wear PA (hello i am Azrael and i am DW and i wear PA)

 

So no DW as a circle is not TDA only but yes DW as a company is(was) TDA only

 

P.S.: according to the lore DW was not TDA only during GC and HH cause the Companions were DW and they wore PA and switched to TDA only after the fall of Caliban so the Bladeguard into the DW is a return to old lore were DW included PA too (but i believe that one day we will see primaris TDA equivalent too and they will be part of the DW alongside the bladeguard)

Edited August 4, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Master Sheol]

I am fine if the new lore explained it. I mean, we all know bladeguard can be deathwing for sure, but I need to know why these new deathwing boys wearing normal armour, not primaris TDA?

I am not accepting something like "because primaris cant fit in TDA" excuses, you are a deathwing, but not wearing TDA, you are left in the office to do all the paperwork.

Because we're going back to Legionnes Astartes styled stuff? And the Deathwing weren't solely Terminator-armoured in the I Legion?

If it comes this way...then I am not buying these models unless they have dark angrl version, not just ultramarines in a different color.

Because it's so hard to modify a plastic model to taste, right?

I am fine if the new lore explained it. I mean, we all know bladeguard can be deathwing for sure, but I need to know why these new deathwing boys wearing normal armour, not primaris TDA?

I am not accepting something like "because primaris cant fit in TDA" excuses, you are a deathwing, but not wearing TDA, you are left in the office to do all the paperwork.

Because we're going back to Legionnes Astartes styled stuff? And the Deathwing weren't solely Terminator-armoured in the I Legion?

Lol so much more concise than me, but exactly that. The single-loadout style of Intercessors, hellblasters, etc. really make the intent of that clear, I mean, they have neo-volkite guns!!!

Pretty much As soon as I saw the Hellblasters I said "That looks a lot like a Legion Tactical Support Squad armed with Plasma guns...."

The fact that the Dark Angels codex says they hearken back to the days of the Great Crusade where Dark Angels fielded entire squads armed with Plasma weaponry is what sealed Primaris being basically Legionnes Astartes 2.0 for me.

I agree with you about the modelling part: this is my DA master from indomitus

And YES primaris monoweapons build for their squads with basically just the sergeant having options is a reminder to the CG/HH period were before the Codex Astartes by RG the squads were tipically using a single type of weapon for all the squad (tipically the sergeant too) so the special weapons squads with plasmaguns were looking like the hellblasters that have plasma incinerators for all squad including the sergeant

[bigtrouble]

I agree with you about the modelling part: this is my DA master from indomitus

 

Where did you get your DA bits? Looks like quite an eclectic mix. I’ve been looking for stuff to convert the Indomitus guys. I ended up buying the DA hellblasters cuz I drool over those primaris pauldrons, but GW is out of stock of the primaris DA upgrade sprue.

[Master Sheol]

 

I agree with you about the modelling part: this is my DA master from indomitus

 

Where did you get your DA bits? Looks like quite an eclectic mix. I’ve been looking for stuff to convert the Indomitus guys. I ended up buying the DA hellblasters cuz I drool over those primaris pauldrons, but GW is out of stock of the primaris DA upgrade sprue.

The sword, the DW dagger with keys and tilting shield are from the DA upgrades (firstborn)

The helmet wings are from the DA veterans kit

[Grand Master Raziel]

Aw man! I wish I'd thought of putting robed heads on my Bladeguard! I did do the helmet wings on my Master though, and everyone got a more DA- style sword. I had 3 DW Sergeant sword arms on hand, plus a sword from I think the Veterans box. Now I have none of these things, but my Bladeguard have flanged DA swords.

[Master Sheol]

Aw man! I wish I'd thought of putting robed heads on my Bladeguard! I did do the helmet wings on my Master though, and everyone got a more DA- style sword. I had 3 DW Sergeant sword arms on hand, plus a sword from I think the Veterans box. Now I have none of these things, but my Bladeguard have flanged DA swords.

My lieutenant has DA tilting shield (from DW kit) and hooded head with bionic eye (from firstborn DA upgrades)

No DA sword cause his sword is sheated and no DA shield cause i LOVE the bladeguard shields and i keep them

 

My bladeguards i still have to build cause i want to see the full kit what options will have to decide how i will build them (probably i will get a full kit so i cani make a 6 men squad or a 5 man squad and convert one to lieutenant)

I have many spare DA swords from RW kits so i will put more simple ones to bladeguards and more elaborated one on the sergeant

On the basic bladeguard i will keep normal tilting shields and give the DA soecific one to the sergeant

In the DA veterans kit there is also a cool hooded knightly helmet that i think i will put on the sergeant

 

Can't wait for the full Bladeguard kit cause i am in love for this unit and i hope in DA codex they can teleport with the rest of the DW

[plasmaspam]

 

I don't disagree, but I've had forum members tell me quite... passionately... that if it wasn't in Terminator armour then it wasn't a member of the Deathwing.

 

It seems to me--just from observing the moves GW has been making with Dark Angels of late--that they are using the introduction of Primaris as an opportunity to emphasize the "Legion in disguise" organization that DA and their successors have.  And the Hexagrammaton organization of the legion gives me a few hints at what they have in mind for the Deathwing and the future organization of Dark Angels in general. 

 

My guess is that they will integrate different aspects of the "wings" of the hexagrammaton into the current Dark Angels organization, not officially, but by implication.  So to me, it looks like by adding bladeguard to the Deathwing, they are taking the concept of the Stormwing and making the breacher/close quarters theme it has and integrating that into the modern Deathwing, which on paper really has a very similar function. 

 

And I think Deathwing will definitely emphasize the Inner Circle as the main distinction, rather than what armor mark is used. 

 

That being said, GIVE US PRIMARIS TERMINATORS! (have they shown MKIX armor yet?)

 

 

I share this view on how the Chapter is going to be defined in the future, primarily from my speculation (hope!) of the return of The Lion.

 

As and when more and more Primarchs are brought back, Jonson's return will i think bring back the Hexagrammaton, which we will learn all about in detail shortly with HH Book 9.  Not with our upcoming Codex supplement, but with hopefully the next campaign book series wherein Jonson comes back, i'd hope to see stratagems or warlord traits which would represent each Wing.  Hopefully with the advent of Mk X TEQ, and a filled out biker/speeder suite, we'd then have the full range of units available to field the Wings.  My take on how they would be disposed is slightly different:

• Deathwing - Mk X TEQ hopefully.  I know Bladeguard have been given "Deathwing", but as things stand i view them more as the replacement for Company Veterans.  More on them in a minute.  
• Ravenwing - Outriders/Invaders/Nu-Speeders.  Hopefully Primaris jetbikes for a post-rubicon Sammael (or successor) and his Black Knights
• Stormwing - Bladeguard leading the way for assault intercessors, auto-bolter and assault plasma squads riding Impulsors in a siege-breaking cavalry charge.  Kinda wants for a Primaris Vindicator.
• Dreadwing - all Gravis.  The Aggressor intro line in the existing codex which has always stuck in my mind is "advance and destroy".  Combine Aggressors with Inceptors, Eradicators, and the incoming Heavy Intercessors and hopefully Gravis Lt, Librarian and Chaplain models all riding Repulsors, and it screams Dreadwing to me
• Ironwing - that new Techmarine in an Executioner leading some of those new Gladiator tanks, with lines of Redemptors following in their wake - gimme!
• Firewing - 10th company - Infiltrators, Eliminators, Reivers, Suppressors - defo a speartip-to-the-throat play-style.

I love firstborn Astartes, and am going to finish my M41 Battle Company regardless, but they are defo on the way out over the next 1-2 years.  Confession - Azrael bores me, so i kinda hope Belial gets promoted and we perhaps get a new Deathwing Grand Master.  A supplement as others have said allows us to focus on the key characters, strategic wings disseminated throughout the chapter, and the wider Legion (yep, i said it!).  Codex and supplement will confirm things or otherwise, but i'm already forming my M42 5th idea around three detachments based on the principles (in the absence of outright buffs) of Storm-, Dread-, and Ironwings.

 

I'm looking forward to October, i think the future is bright for the First.

[solarisqc]

It will be awesome if they include ''wing protocol'' in our supplement.

It may be realy simple but something like a stratagem you use at the start of the game that affect you armies structure.

 

Deathwing: unit with the Deahwing keyword become obj. secure but troops lose it

Ravenwing: unit with the Ravenwing keyword become obj. secure but troops lose it

 

The other wing will have to wait for the Lion return

[WrathOfTheLion]

I do agree that they will likely bring back the hexagrammaton. As we hear more about it, it becomes evident that the primaris line actually has the coverage to implement the remaining wings, which the 40k classic astartes line does not have.

I am a guilty party here - In general I prefer the 30k/AoD Dark Angels to the 40k style, although I prefer AoD to 40k in general.

[bigtrouble]

I may be in the minority on this point, but I don’t want to see the Hexagrammaton return as part of the official codex. It’s already unusual for the DW and RW to split up and attach to other battle groups. It would seem to be a logistical mistake to organize six independently outfitted companies and then split them up again for different strike force missions. I mean in galactic Warp travel world, maybe that’s feasible, but not ideal. DW and RW operating in support of larger forces make sense because of their roles in the Hunt and their elite status.

[Master Sheol]

I may be in the minority on this point, but I don’t want to see the Hexagrammaton return as part of the official codex. It’s already unusual for the DW and RW to split up and attach to other battle groups. It would seem to be a logistical mistake to organize six independently outfitted companies and then split them up again for different strike force missions. I mean in galactic Warp travel world, maybe that’s feasible, but not ideal. DW and RW operating in support of larger forces make sense because of their roles in the Hunt and their elite status.

This Is the operating way for 1st company of other chapters too

The veterans rarely operate as a full company and usually act like supporting elements for the battle companies

The same goes for the reserve companies that gives specific squads to battle companies as needed

DW and RW operates as the 1st company of any other chapter giving elements to the battle companies when the mission requires it

About the Hexagrammatron i dont think we Will see it in 40k unless they remake totally the organisation of the unforgiven and i dont think it can happen so easily even with a return of the Lion (that i dont hope cause loyalist primarchs are better in 30k)

About the Bladeguard and Stormwing or company veterans. They are meant to recall the DW companions from 30k and not boarding units. Also they are much more veterans than CoVets and i think that role will Be filled by the newly introduced veteran intercessors that are becoming a unit with datasheet instead of a stratagem in the upcoming SM Codex and will Be available to DA too when our supplement will be released (end 2020 or beginning 2021 i guess)