Black Templar: Army Comp/Design and input requested

[9x19 Parabellum]

Hello fellow crusaders.

 

Indomitus Astartes now prompting me into my 4th Astartes adventure (Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Iron Hands and now Black Templar....because, yes, I like painting black), I would like to get some advice from you guys:

 

If sticking only to Primaris models (because I don't like the mixing the old and new marines; a combination of scale differences and other aesthetic things like the more gothic armor of old marines), what would you do for a Black Templar all-Primaris Troop Choices?

 

Is there anything that works best in terms of function or mechanics?

 

I have of course the 2x5 assault intercessors that come in the boxed set, I was thinking of supplementing with some intercessors using the Assault Gun variety, and/or some Stalker intercessors.  (Maybe 1x5 of each).  Thoughts?  Phobos troop choices seem unthematic for BT's, but I could be talked into them, particularly if they are heavily reliant on some mechanic or another.

What do you guys think?

Also....should assault intercessors have red trim on the shoulder pad or kept black?  ie, are they initiaties or assault squadron?

[Sete]

Assault Bolters on intercessors would be my advice. 3 shots at 24 range, and you keep some mobility, and should mesh well with our CT with re rolling charges and advance rolls.

But im not a competitive player.

Other frater might offer better advice.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Sete

[Medjugorje]

I didnt found the optimal equipment right now. But I think if you have 2 assault then you need 2 normal ones.

[Charlo]

So I'd say you absolutely need some Blade Guard Veterans in an Impulsor! They nail the BT look and will do nicely on the field.

 

As for Intercessors, I'd say you can probably use normal bolt riles, as opposed to Auto ones, let the Assault Intercessors ve the first wave with the normal Intercessors moving up nomrally giving fire support.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Thanks guys. What about incurors or infiltrators? Do they fill a vital role in BT lists?

 

The bladeguard vets will absolutely be going in, Charlo. Right now I'm just looking about getting the core troops solidified. (mostly to economize the painting of models...painting troops is a bit like eating one's vegetables)  :-)

[Marshal Reinhard]

The 'correct' look for assault intercessors is the red trim. They're close support in lore, even though they're a troop type in game technical terms. I still painted mine with a black trim though, hoping I'll be able to mix them with standard intercessors soon for a true Primaris Crusader squad. But this is based on conjecture and wishful thinking. The red trim is the official look.

 

As for your core troop choices, I'd like to stress that we more or less know that we're getting more new troop types soon in the form of Heavy Intercessors, by the time the codex releases most likely in two months. Might change what the optimal choice is, we'll have to see.

[Ahistorian]

Hello fellow Primaris Crusader!

I have 30 Intercessors split between assault Intercessors and Intercessors with auto bolt rifles, 2x5 Incursors and 5 Infiltrators. Incursors feel the most Templar of the Vanguard troops because of their twin combat blades. But they help control the board too!

[tychobi]

I deeply reccomend phobos troops as engaging turn 1 should be your goal. A brace of warsuits with flamethowers to ensure your opponent has a list of bad decisions to make from the hop fit nice as well. If your goal is to walk over and punch stuff best start in the mid field eh?

[Hymnblade]

Personally, I think that Phobos troops can look plenty Templar:

 

 

Incursors are pretty solid troops for us. They're durable like all Primaris units, and they can get in your opponent's face and clog up their lines very early in the game. They're also decent at shooting and CC. The downside compared to Intercessors is that their guns are worse and they can't take thunder hammers.

 

Canonically, assault intercessors (and other non-veteran CC units) "should" have red trim since they're Close Support, but this is a new thing from 8th and I don't like it, so I don't use it. My veterans get black shoulders with red trim, everybody else gets white shoulders with black trim.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I wholeheartedly disagree with red trim being the correct colour for a non-jump pack assault intercessor unit. They're a troop unit wielding chainswords and pistols: classic crusader in a Black Templar army. Simply painting every 'codex' close support unit with red trim doesn't really work with our fluff.

 

The red trim originally applied only to assault squads. (Interestingly the 4th ed Codex colour scheme plate said just assault squads, but the colour was also applied to the bikes in the pictures, so there was an error there one way or the other.) But the fluff for BT assault squads (Armageddon onwards) was that they were marked apart because they fought too much in the fray to train Neophytes.

 

It's then been extended, by the community, not GW as they haven't given us any official guidance since close support became a thing, but usually applies to units which can utilise something other than standard power armoured legs to deploy into combat. So you have jump pack assault squads, bike squads, land speeders, (iffy imo), Centurion Assault Squads, Suppressors, Inceptors and Reivers (who deploy via grav chutes.) Aggressors may fit, but could be fire support.

 

The other unit which is a bit tricky is the Incursor squad. They are marked close support for other chapters, but actually, I think would work well with Neophyte support as a mixed unit, as they forward deploy, but not using any special hear to do so. (And neophytes could do the same with them.)

 

In that way, I argue that if they release a jump pack equipped Assault Intercessor Squad, they would absolutely get red trim. But standard foot slogging assault intercessors would likely just fight as Crusader Squads.

 

This is one of the problems with there being no real official fluff updates for the chapter for the whole of the Primaris update, were trying to fill the gaps based on hypotheticals.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I personally do white shoulders with black trim for all my basic guys, and black shoulders with red trim for anyone who would be recognized as a Sword Brother. Typically just vet squads, HQs (not chaplains), champions and so on. Chaplains have standard pads in my crusade because while they can be advisers to a Marshal, they stand apart as the backbone of the crusade's unbreakable spirit and thus stride forth as equals beside all brothers, honored or not.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Veterans are formed into a separate brotherhood which is spread across the chapter. We don't have companies in the traditional sense. The crusades are more ad-hoc and can be separated from eachother for decades or longer.

The veteran brotherhood are the Sword Brethren. They wear red crosses on a black pad with red trim. The terminators, BladeGuard, Company Veterans, Vanguard Veterans and Sternguard Veterans all fall into this brotherhood, as do the squad leaders of other squads.

The terminators were traditionally painted with white helmets. But the beauty of the Sword Brethren is that beyond pad colour, you can add loads of flourishes, as they are said to wear their own personal heraldry. So you can effectively do what you want. So I don't mind any unit having a white helmet.

Here are my company vets, as you can see, despite being one unit, they all have unique heraldry:

Edited August 1, 2020 by Brother Adelard

[Marshal Reinhard]

I wholeheartedly disagree with red trim being the correct colour for a non-jump pack assault intercessor unit. They're a troop unit wielding chainswords and pistols: classic crusader in a Black Templar army. Simply painting every 'codex' close support unit with red trim doesn't really work with our fluff.

The red trim originally applied only to assault squads. (Interestingly the 4th ed Codex colour scheme plate said just assault squads, but the colour was also applied to the bikes in the pictures, so there was an error there one way or the other.) But the fluff for BT assault squads (Armageddon onwards) was that they were marked apart because they fought too much in the fray to train Neophytes.

 

It's then been extended, by the community, not GW as they haven't given us any official guidance since close support became a thing, but usually applies to units which can utilise something other than standard power armoured legs to deploy into combat. So you have jump pack assault squads, bike squads, land speeders, (iffy imo), Centurion Assault Squads, Suppressors, Inceptors and Reivers (who deploy via grav chutes.) Aggressors may fit, but could be fire support.

 

The other unit which is a bit tricky is the Incursor squad. They are marked close support for other chapters, but actually, I think would work well with Neophyte support as a mixed unit, as they forward deploy, but not using any special hear to do so. (And neophytes could do the same with them.)

 

In that way, I argue that if they release a jump pack equipped Assault Intercessor Squad, they would absolutely get red trim. But standard foot slogging assault intercessors would likely just fight as Crusader Squads.

 

This is one of the problems with there being no real official fluff updates for the chapter for the whole of the Primaris update, were trying to fill the gaps based on hypotheticals.

 

The 8th edition codex flat out tellings us that the red trim is the go to official colour theme for all close support units goes beyond just being a 'hypothetical'. It is the current official word. You can disagree all you want, and make normative arguments about how you think this shoudn't be the case (And just to be clear, I happen to agree) and that there should be more care given and how we need more expanded fluff and attention given to how the Templars paint their newer primaris assets (because the Emperor knows, we need it), but that doesn't undo the official word, clumsy as it is.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

But that thinking requires you to use the codex Astartes definition of what a 'close support' unit is. I agre that it is the right trim, for close support units, yes.

 

I just don't think that assault intercessors are a close support unit. They are clearly battleline.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Brother Adelard

[Marshal Reinhard]

Until there is any BT specific word that they're not, that is what they officially are. What any of us think besides that is irrelevant.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I favour the opposite approach, until anyone tells us that for they are for our chapter, they just play as crusaders.

 

This is one of the reasons why I actually 'fear' more attention from GW. If it isn't handled well, it could make things worse!

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'm not even sure what we're arguing, anymore. It feels to me like you're conflating what the "official look" is and what you feel is the "better look". 

 

Objectively, there's one official look and flawed as it is currently, it still doesn't detract from the fact that it is the official look. We can argue, agree, negotiate what we think is better, referencing older past editions where the scheme applied to different models. But that doesn't make what we're discussing the offical look. There's no 'approaches' to that. 

 

I for one painted my trims black because I preffered that, but I won't call it the official look, because until further notice from GW, it isn't. So what? It's also not part of the official look that Chaplains have all black pauldrons with white crosses, but that's still how I paint mine, official look be damned.

[Medjugorje]

Yeah, there are some sources that say Bladeguard vets should have white helmets. Do Templar vets all have white helms? Are Bladeguard 1st company vets? Do Templars have 1st company? Do they have white shoulders or black shoulders? Haha. Open to interpretation.

For 1t company there is no interpetation needed. We dont do that here!!!^^

[Sword Brother Adelard]

What makes you say that the chaplain look isn't still 'official?'? It's never been retconned as far as I know. There simply isn't a scheme for HQ options in the 8th edition codexes just battleline, fire support, veterans and close support.

 

I don't count that 8th edition starter booklet scheme of the chaplain scheme being fire support as canon, as it was immediately retconned in the 8th edition codexes.

 

I think perhaps my issue is that, there isn't really an 'official' look for the majority of our scheme. In addition, as nothing has superceded the majority of it, the 4th edition guidance is, to me, as good now as it has always been.

[Medjugorje]

 

Objectively, there's one official look 

and thats why we should keep how the old lore works. And because Intercessors squads (already in the 8th edition lore) used to be Crusadersquads, the Assault Intercessors are Crusadersquads too. Logical concolusion here is that we dont care for codex astartes and we still keep everything as it was before for all primaris equivalents,...

 

so:

 

Assault Intercessors / Intercessors  - Crusadersquad

currently no choice until assault intercessors have access to jump packs and are in the assault slot - assault squad

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, it's worth remembering that little snippet of lore that the intercessor in the codex plates was said to be a member of a crusader squad.

 

And yeah, absolutely they will get red trim if they get the option for a jump pack.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

Yeah, there are some sources that say Bladeguard vets should have white helmets. Do Templar vets all have white helms? Are Bladeguard 1st company vets? Do Templars have 1st company? Do they have white shoulders or black shoulders? Haha. Open to interpretation.

For 1t company there is no interpetation needed. We dont do that here!!!^^

We didn’t do centurions or tactical squads either lol

 

Tactical squads are just playable on tabletop per rules but they are just a crusadersquad in terms of lore. Same as is with our captains which are indeed marshals and shadow captains by the Raven Guard and Khan by the White Scars.

 

Just because they have a special name in their datasheets doesnt mean they are called the same by each chapter. 

And Centurions were not introduced in former editions so there never had been a restriction for us in the lore or in the rules so they are a normal unit in each crusade as other units are like Assault squads, Predators ....

[Marshal Wolfhart]

There has never been ONE right way to paint templars. 3rd was different from 4th and so on. Every crusade out there does things differently, as needs are met. Every one of Sigismund's knights has the honor and duty to look after his heraldry. If the marshal of the crusade deems it acceptable is all that matters. Read: Paint your spacemens the way you like, use the books as inspiration not limitation.

Me, personally, i paint every veteran (read: Elite) unit red rim, black background, red cross. Troops are standard black trim, white backdrop black cross. Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices are red trim, white backdrop, black cross. Chaplains are black rim and back with white cross. Marshals get some golden adornation, with one shoulder pad black trim white back, black cross. Castellans are drawn from the Marshal's household as needs must, so they're blinged-up veterans. That's how i like it, i'm not saying that's canonically correct. I encourage anyone to do it their own (crusade's) way, that's the Templar way to me ;) Finally, there is nothing wrong, as long as you do what you do with sufficient ZEAL!

[9x19 Parabellum]

I appreciate all the feedback on this.

 

In every paint scheme I choose, I always look to know the "right" way to do it (insomuch as there is one), as that at least informs me how much I'm breaking the rules and veering from the "official" look.  That in turns helps inform me how much explaining I have to do an observer or opponent when they ask me "these guys are crusader squad?"  "these guys are veterans?" etc. etc.

 

In the case of my new Black Templars, I wanted to stay away as much as possible from red shoulder trim as my Raven Guard chapter is 3rd company (because, pre-primaris, Shrike) so I already have a black astartes army with red trim, and I don't want to duplicate that. I also don't want to be way out of bounds of the official codex.  So I think I'm landing on black trim for all my troops units, even assault intercessors, at least for now.

 

I painted the heavy bolt pistols khorne red and aquilas are a pale gold color.  This is also all intended to contrast with my Raven Guard (black bolter casings and white aquilas) and my iron hands (white bolter casing and silver/metallic aquilas).   I'll have pics up later today of my assault intercessors as they are almost done.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/armiesonparade.com/2016/09/30/black-templars-by-peter-king/amp/

 

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