Is Chaos now just a labor of love?

[Julgolax]

While the Chaos Marines, Havocs, Raptors, Terminators and (some of) the characters have awesome models that easily compare with the glorious Primaris releases, it seems that in terms of raw number crunching, Chaos is relatively weak. And in the lore, it seems that Chaos, like in Age of Sigmar, is being pushed back everywhere despite the literal ripping-open of the veil between the material universe and the howling ruination of the warp.

 

I really wanted to start Chaos Space Marines but I'm sitting here with a ton of Primaris Marines feeling like a dirty powergamer. I love the Primaris Marines, don't get me wrong, but there's just something I don't like about it now that I see how much attention they're getting from GW.

 

I'm going to be heading to GW brick and mortar today and I'm either walking out with paint or I'm walking out with a new Chaos Marine army, if you can convince me that Chaos will be all right or not.

[Marshal Loss]

Primaris are abominations. With that out of the way, I'd lay it out like this:

 

CSM Pros

• Incredible models with relatively few holdovers
• Individual Legions are in the best place they have been since 3.5; lots of cool fluffy flavour

CSM Cons

• Loyalists are vastly superior to us in pretty much every way (but, in fairness, they are better than pretty much everybody anyway)
• Legion traits in dire need of an update
• Many of our core units suck (most notably the humble CSM)

 

If you're on the fence then the answer is simple: wait for our next book. We're inevitably going to be getting a codex in the first year or so of 9th and hopefully will receive a long-awaited and badly-needed update to our Legion traits. Maybe we'll be looking good after that. Maybe not. But we're never going to be equal to Primaris in terms of releases/general attention/success in the lore, and nobody can convince you that Chaos will be "all right" because nobody knows what the future holds for us. If you like the models enough to collect an army and aren't hyper-competitive, then by all means buy some CSM. They're not going anywhere though so it's not like waiting is going to cause you any long-term damage.

 

As far as the lore goes, it's important to differentiate between the setting and the meta-narrative. The meta-narrative (which typically revolves around Girlyman and his codex-worshipping bongo drums) usually makes CSM look terrible. But in the setting itself, Chaos is running rampant across the galaxy and the Legions are having a grand old time. Some Primarchs are even getting the band(s) back together. Take a look at novels like Spear of the Emperor to get a look at how the Imperium is really faring (hint: poorly).

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I have 2 distinct thoughts on this matter. 

 

Firstly, Marshal Loss is right in saying that Chaos isn't going anywhere. An army now is just as easy as an army later, unless you were hoping to have it done and themed by the time the new book drops.

 

Secondly, it is that labor of love mentality that gives me hope for the new book being solid. All of the evidence I can find, sparse as it is, points toward a lot of the more vocal playtesters having been involved in testing the upcoming codecies over the last year+. They were all sent out and balanced alongside one another. And, naturally, that means that people with a vested interested in the feel and play of chaos would have been using their lovingly modeled armies to test those rules for feedback. If GW took any of that feedback to heart, it's going to have had an impact on the rules going forward.

 

Fluff? We can't do anything about fluff. GW is set in their course, and is so deep into the Primaris hole that its succeed or bust. So they're going to market and promote the new boys in any way they can. Novels, amped rules, exposure exposure exposure. But in terms of mechanics, assuming this new vocal playtester rout isn't a giant destraction and its all taken to heart, Chaos is likely to have a very good time this edition. I have to think that, otherwise the whole point of moving into 9th is soured for me.

[WarriorFish]

As this is essentially a new range for an army - and the most popular one at that - I'm afraid we're not likely to see a change in focus for the immediate future. Chaos aren't the only army left out in the cold, but with this Necron release perhaps we can start seeing more of a focus on non-SM armies sooner rather than later (though this isn't particularly high bar currently...).

 

It's not about Chaos specifically, as it's the same for any army. Do you like the army lore and models? How they generally play? This is what really makes an army as rules come and go. This is why I wouldn't worry much about the lore happenings either, as practically it means little and depends on what angle they are taking and most of the time means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things anyway. This part isn't new though, which is just as well as armies tend to make their own story as you game with them

 

With all the changes and resets done by 9th we're at the start of a new cycle which is not the best time to be starting a new army in my opinion unless you're sure. If you were sure you'd not have created this topic So I'd say best to wait and see how 9th goes once we get out of the early pain stages, and when the CSM codex turns up see how you feel then

[Julgolax]

Primaris are abominations. With that out of the way, I'd lay it out like this:

 

CSM Cons

• Loyalists are vastly superior to us in pretty much every way (but, in fairness, they are better than pretty much everybody anyway)
• Legion traits in dire need of an update
• Many of our core units suck (most notably the humble CSM)

 

If you're on the fence then the answer is simple: wait for our next book. We're inevitably going to be getting a codex in the first year or so of 9th and hopefully will receive a long-awaited and badly-needed update to our Legion traits. Maybe we'll be looking good after that. Maybe not. But we're never going to be equal to Primaris in terms of releases/general attention/success in the lore, and nobody can convince you that Chaos will be "all right" because nobody knows what the future holds for us. If you like the models enough to collect an army and aren't hyper-competitive, then by all means buy some CSM. They're not going anywhere though so it's not like waiting is going to cause you any long-term damage.

 

As far as the lore goes, it's important to differentiate between the setting and the meta-narrative. The meta-narrative (which typically revolves around Girlyman and his codex-worshipping bongo drums) usually makes CSM look terrible. But in the setting itself, Chaos is running rampant across the galaxy and the Legions are having a grand old time. Some Primarchs are even getting the band(s) back together. Take a look at novels like Spear of the Emperor to get a look at how the Imperium is really faring (hint: poorly).

 

I certainly don't expect anyone to predict the future, but I'd rather not commit to an army that "just isn't very good, and won't be, ever". I am not competitive but I also want to win now and then. I am looking forward to the Crusade feature a LOT and I figure either Chaos Space Marines, Primaris Space Marines or going back to AoS. In terms of Narrative, I'm actually in favor of a homebrew chaos marine chapter or primaris chapter (as I've posted in the Liber) so Legion / Chapter rules are, to me, meant for flavoring the army for my specific background lore.

 

I don't really want to wait any longer than I already have, as I've waited quite a while now for the Primaris to get released enough to build an army out of. As I said, I'm heading out today to the local Brick and Mortar GW. I need to make a choice. Heresy or Loyalty, or going back to fantasy lands of AoS.

 

It's good to read that Chaos is still relevant in the lore, as far as canonical books are concerned but GW doesn't really make them feel that way these days.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I'm a huge AOS player myself, and can never suggest that game enough. Aside from a couple of small details it is the superior game for me in all ways. But sitting that aside, my suggestion is build Chaos. You can win games with them. Oblitoraters are a stupendous unit, and the army itself has so much fun and flavor. It'd be absolutely perfect for Crusade with friends. It's worth doing just for the fun of being able to field them, and really, there are certainly ways to make them work when you start to dig around. It won't be as hard as playing Grey Knights at their low point of 8th.

[tychobi]

Yes. It always was. It takes dedication and perceverence to champion the bad guys, the perennial losers, the underdogs. The explanation of the 6 point cultist as fluffy displays clearly the divers of game balance. Its not fair. Was never fair. Will not be fair. Chaos will ever fight up hill into the narrative needs of a scrappy imperium bravely defending humanity from the never ending horde of grimdark. For me the gulliman fluff was as compelling as mathew brodrick mucking up a godzilla movie. I am here for the grimdark not some mary sue space messiah. Paint vs models may not be so different. Following the dark gods is a labor of love. For now the aspiring chaos in your heart is suffering under the yoke of cawls new mutants. So fold em in. Smash, cut, modify, remove aquillas, add spikes, and let your paint flourish your true colors as a son of the lost and the damned. Check out Jim Vessals Soul Drinkers army on youtube with a "gulliman" based on a venom crawler and some aracnorock parts I believe. Not all the way to chaos but close enough for me!

[Marshal Loss]

 

I certainly don't expect anyone to predict the future, but I'd rather not commit to an army that "just isn't very good, and won't be, ever". I am not competitive but I also want to win now and then.

 

Well, in order for somebody to tell you whether you are committing to an army that "just isn't very good, and won't be, ever", they'd need to be predicting the future...

 

Look: I played CSM during the glory days of 3rd edition and would never have predicted that I'd be waiting 13+ years for a book of equivalent quality/strength. That wait might end this or next year or it might well go on for another 13 years. Your B&C account is old and you've no doubt been around the block a few times. You know how this works. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. In model terms (for the first time in many years) we're definitely winning. Our rules aren't that bad. Primaris are flat out better than us, but we can compete, and there are lots of ways to build cool thematic lists if you are that way inclined. CSM aren't complete garbage. We're just outshone by Primaris. Plenty of people still enjoy and do well with the army. I love playing with my CSM. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I get pissed off seeing an identical marine across the table being better than my spiky marines at pretty much everything.

 

A new codex with some monofaction bonuses and updated traits will make CSM a more potent army. But have GW finally learned their lesson? Will it be the equal of Primaris, or close enough for the difference to not matter? I can't say. Nobody can. We haven't even seen a single 9th edition codex yet so there's nothing to do but guess.

 

Ultimately if you have to be convinced to go and buy some CSM then waiting or bailing to another setting is definitely the better option. If you must make your choice today, based on what is currently out and what we currently know, then Primaris would seem to offer you what you're looking for: a large new range with strong rules & an imminent codex release that comes with the new crusade system.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[Lucerne]

Fluffwise, GW isn't even narratively consistent in that it's completely ignored the return of half the traitor Primarchs in their own fluff. Ignore the rambling about Primaris being so great as Imperial propaganda and build on the tidibits. Remember, everything may be canon but not everything has to be true- or at least from a certain point of view. They say the Legions are rampaging and Nihlus is gone? Treat that as the starting point for your lore, even if the worthless LSM lore focuses on the big blue poster boys basically ignoring those canon facts.

 

Play the army you love, but don't be afraid to do counts-as if you need to. Don't shackle yourself to GW's :cussty balancing and faction neglect.

 

tl;dr: buy the chaos minis, use the rules that best fit them, and ignore GW's obscene Primaris bias outright

Edited August 2, 2020 by Lucerne

[Jings]

It's beyond a labour of love at the moment. We're currently getting the shaft because GW are (once again) prioritizing profits over the game itself and the problem (and ironically the solution) is Primaris. 

 

So now the dust has settled and the Primaris have been crudely shoved into setting. The argument that they were simply a vehicle for introducing true scale Marines into the range has fallen flat on its face and it's become clear that they're simply there to oblige Space Marine players (the majority) into rebuying their collections. A flat "these are Tactical Marines in Mark X armour" would have, at least for their initial release, stunted sales as many players would have decided since it's just a range refresh, they'll continue to use their 20 year old Tacs as they always have. Whether or not a range refresh would have sufficed, we'll never know, because the ramifications of the introduction of Primaris is so far reaching that it would be impossible to look back and determine if people would have rebought their models just because of a scale change. 

 

Some of you might be wondering why I'm focusing on Primaris in a thread about Chaos. But the dirty little secret is that everything wrong with Chaos Space Marines as an army today is directly tied to Games Workshop's introduction of Primaris. 

 

CSM has almost always been a parallel army to their loyalist counterparts. Sure, there are some differences in specialist units and vehicles, but for the most parts the Tactical/Assault/Devastator core of Space Marine armies are mirrored in CSM/Raptors/Havoks. Both share Terminators, Bikers and Dreadnoughts. Huge swathes of the Chaos codex are and have always been the goatee'd evil twins of the Loyalists. The introduction of Primaris has thrown a spanner in the works for that. 

 

So it's clear to most people that the "Firstborn" are being phased out. The future is Primaris, and we've all got to make our peace with that. The awkwardness with CSM comes from the fact that they're parallels with the now-Firstborn range, and not the Primaris. This was clear from Dark Imperium, when the Death Guard models were released and made noticeably smaller than their Loyalist counterparts.

 

Space Marines had spent a lot of editions prior to 8th struggling to live up to their lore depictions on the tabletop. The Primaris statline upgrade has, for the most part, rectified that by taking changes that the community had recommended for years (more wounds and attacks). But, in order to sell these new Primaris marines, these changes to the Space Marine statline were not universal - Firstborn units did not receive this improvement and instead languished with the old statline, as they are old news and not a priority for the company to sell. 

 

Chaos Space Marines, being analogues to the Firstborn marines, are caught in this marketing crossfire. It's really a case of being stuck between a rock and a hard place. The Chaos Space Marine unit itself received an updated kit during the last Chaos releases. It scaled them up to near-but-not-quite-Primaris proportions. This would have been the prime time to start also upgrading CSM to the new Astartes statline, but instead GW left them be. The reason for this is, if they had updated the statline for CSM, then Loyalists would have (rightly) pointed out that their units should also receive that improvement. And that would likely have a negative impact on Astartes units going forward. 

 

Similar anti-Firstborn moves have been made recently. The "Astartes Chainsword" being available to only Primaris for example. It's a shame, because CSM is one of the most popular armies going, but they're going to be continually weakened into this joke faction while Loyalists and their Primaris are stomping tournaments left right and centre. 

 

I could go on, particularly with the fact that the Primaris approach as a contemporary (lorewise) update to the HH Astartes Legions would have been a better strategy as a Chaos range reboot than the Loyalist, but that's for another day. 

 

tl;dr GW need to sell new loyalist toys so old loyalist toys are bad and because csm are same as old loyalist they are bad too

Edited August 2, 2020 by Jings

[Doom Herald]

I look at it as playing CSM is a puzzle. We have a wide variety of odd rules and with that the ability to do odd things. The thing about playing CSM is that you don't have a straight-forward path to victory (in most cases), you have to find things you can work together in unexpected and dangerous ways. I feel pretty comfortable saying that on paper, our rules are like playing inferior SM. "So you're playing Space Marines with worse rules," was a frequent thing I heard from SM players when I brought my Night Lords to the table in 8th, but my Night Lords almost always won out against SM armies. CSM works, but you have to find the right advantagesto leverage together and often times it's going to feel like you're abusing rules to do it. I think CSM is a very odd army because the player base is used to having to do this, then other players get upset, then GW nerfs it, then CSM players find new rules to abuse (out of necessity), and the cycle continues. They're fun to model, you have plenty of cool conversion opportunities, and despite the rules seeming to be worse CSM has been a viably strong competitive faction throughout all of 8th.

 

With 9th edition changes, I think Black Legion, Red Corsairs, and Creations of Bile look like great factions right now. That said, I think all Legions are viable with the right creativity. Maybe it is a labor of love, but it's a fun labor of love and it's quite the exquisite feeling when you see your tactics make trash talking Loyalists melt under the fury of true Astartes. Also, let's be real for a moment, 40k in general is a labor of love. I don't think I could play a faction other than chaos as more than a small side project, the fluff feels richer and grittier, the models are cool, the conversion opportunities are endless and almost any conversions can be made fluffy, and you won't get bored because you will have to work for your victories but they will usually be possible. Finding what new act of madness will bring me victory is a part of the magic.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Brom MKIV]

I say if you like the models and the lore then take the leap.

 

To that I'll add, own more than one army and don't commit to a single legion.

This game is cyclical. Each faction has it's time in the sun but not necessarily balanced within one edition. The imbalance is what creates or at least amplifies emotional attachment and that's by design IMO.

 

Anyway chaos is a vast toolbox, if your willing to use it all. Even with the latest changes to allying. If you don't have many self imposed restrictions you will have success. And if SM become a problem tailor more to deal with them specifically.

[MegaVolt87]

I think we have done alright lore wise with the setting change. If we do any better than we are, technically we should be at Terra already IMO. However BL and Abaddon are falling back into their old failbaddon state post Vigilus which is very disappointing.

 

Also our closet traitor brothers the DA, man they are still stuck with hur durrr fallen tropes, they need more going on, like a campaign where they are actually being space marines, doing proper space marine things and not cosplaying inquisition everytime they show up. I hate how they only seem to show up to a warzone only because a fallen might be there EVERY TIME. Give us a Fallen set of army rules already via new CSM dex so the DA don't at least look stupid by sticking to memes. (see I bought it around  ). 

[Noserenda]

I mean Abaddon blew up half the Imperium and tore the galaxy in half for the opening of the new era, its all going to be downhill from there or every other faction would be over :D 

[Lucerne]

I mean Abaddon blew up half the Imperium and tore the galaxy in half for the opening of the new era, its all going to be downhill from there or every other faction would be over

Nah Abby could easily have things go his way without his win being ignored or a Necron pylon reset button.

 

Have him carve up Nihlus, actually show that it's a lost cause and being turned into the Chaos Legion playground, and have him start making full on incursions into sanctus. Boom, the story can continue without Chaos being thrown under the metaphorical bus again.

 

Instead, we get a never-ending smurf cartoon and the alleged win's results just being...glossed over, even in the Cadian system.

 

GW is actively abusive towards Chaos fans and players.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Lucerne

[Snazzy]

I find myself in an odd camp, as i've been a Loyalist far longer than a Traitor.  The parts i've always enjoyed about CSM the most was the slight differences they had to Loyalists, like pre-Heresy weapons and not being bound by the Codex Astartes for Terminator configs.  That Primaris are so different doesn't bother me.  I encourage those differences.  What bothers me is that CSM have yet to be fleshed out as to what their "thing" is anymore.  They used to be the most elite of the elite, prior to Grey Knights.  Now you have Custodes, Deathwatch, Primaris and even Firstborn Loyalists able to claim higher quality.  All of that is fine, in theory.  It just feels like the "thing" CSM are doing now is just throwing another Daemon Engine onto the pile. 

 

The other thing is that we are operating with a really dated Codex.  Vigilus, and PA gave us tools that were sorely needed to keep us competitive.  Even still, our Codex is a reflection of the previous 8th Loyalist Codex, with Kill Shot and Linebreaker Bombardment still sitting there, never to be used.  We lost our Specialist Detachments in tournament play.  Those did lots of heavy lifting.  We need a new, consolidated Codex that doesn't make us all feel like we're working with a patchwork faction.

[Captain Incompetence]

Look, if you ask me any army you collect should be to some extend a labor of love. Rules come and go, the meta shifts, new models get released, old ones dissappear. At the end of the day, you should buy models and collect armies that you love. not because they're good or bad at this specific moment in time. Yes, CSM tend to get :cuss on in the lore and in the ruleset every so often, but does it matter? I'll continue painting, collecting and playing my Night Lords cause I'm a moron in an abusive relationship with GW passionate about that particular army and the warband I'm creating.

[Azekai]

Look, if you ask me any army you collect should be to some extend a labor of love. Rules come and go, the meta shifts, new models get released, old ones dissappear. At the end of the day, you should buy models and collect armies that you love. not because they're good or bad at this specific moment in time. Yes, CSM tend to get on in the lore and in the ruleset every so often, but does it matter?

I mean... kinda. I have been collecting 40k since 4th and I was into Death Guard even before that, but there have been entire editions where our faction mechanics prevented me from enjoying the army I was playing and it made me shelve my chaos marines. I *really* did not like the mandatory challenge rules for our independent characters, for example.

 

That having been said, the wheel never stops turning... marines are going to have to be brought in line at some point... right... guys?

 

 

[Julius Firefocht]

While the Chaos Marines, Havocs, Raptors, Terminators and (some of) the characters have awesome models that easily compare with the glorious Primaris releases, it seems that in terms of raw number crunching, Chaos is relatively weak. And in the lore, it seems that Chaos, like in Age of Sigmar, is being pushed back everywhere despite the literal ripping-open of the veil between the material universe and the howling ruination of the warp.

 

I really wanted to start Chaos Space Marines but I'm sitting here with a ton of Primaris Marines feeling like a dirty powergamer. I love the Primaris Marines, don't get me wrong, but there's just something I don't like about it now that I see how much attention they're getting from GW.

 

I'm going to be heading to GW brick and mortar today and I'm either walking out with paint or I'm walking out with a new Chaos Marine army, if you can convince me that Chaos will be all right or not.

 

I'm sure this has been said before, but it is a sound decision to wait for the CSM 9th Ed Codex before you start the army. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain just by waiting.

 

But let's say you decide to take a leap of faith and join the fight against the False Emperor. In that case I bid you welcome, brother. Here are some things you can look out for.

 

~~~~~

 

1) Pack more multi-damage weapons 

 

You already know Imperial Marines are hot picks, so you are almost never going to lose out by packing multi-damage weapons in your army to make the Primaris Marine's 2W profile irrelevant. Even if you do not face Imperial Marines, multi-damage weapons will still do well against everything else except the most numerous of horde armies. I would suggest the following options, none of them are from Forgeworld and they can be easily purchased at your local store:

 

- Forgefiends (with Hades Autocannon)

- Lord Discordant (Supports Forgefiends, comes with auto-hitting 18" 2-damage flamers) 

- Obliterators (currently only available from the SC: CSM box)

- Havocs (with lascannon/missile launcher/autocannons. Autocannons do a fine job of taking out Primaris Marines at a cheap cost)

- Terminators (with combi-plasma for overcharging, trade with friends or go to Ebay for bits if you need to)

 

 

2) Get durable infantry to hold objective markers, and play to win via objectives

 

So you got a core of units with strong multi-damage firepower in your army. That's good, the next step is to get durable units to help you hold objectives. I would recommend Rubric Marines and Plague Marines from the 1Kson and DG codex respectively, both are tough infantry even though they come with only 1 wound each.   

 

Or you can go for a blob of normal 20-man Slannesh Chaos Space Marine units, use a Dark Apostle to give them the -1 to hit prayer, and cast Delightful Agonies on them for 5+ FNP. The point is, we have access to tools that can make the humble CSM or cultist tougher beyond what their point values suggest, in case you want to explore that route.  

 

Why is playing to objectives so important for Chaos Marines? Simply put, we cannot beat Imperial Marines decisively in a head-on fight. Between their doctrines and universal AP-1 on the most basic Primaris bolters, a static shooting match is definitely not in our favor. On the other hand, capping objectives and scoring secondaries will win you the game even if your OP Imperial Marine opponent has massacred 9/10 of your army at the end of the game. Against an army that is roughly as competitive as CSM, your margin of victory grows larger. 

 

My test games of 9th Ed so far really drove in the importance of holding objectives and fulfilling secondaries over the "Kill Them All" approach, and fortunately CSM can do that competently. 

 

 

3) Psychic Mastery

 

I think its fair to say that Chaos Marines still possess an edge over Imperial Marines in terms of psychic powers. For example, just putting Ahriman in your army in a Thousand Sons patrol detachment will allow you to output a steady stream of mortal wounds while denying up to 3 enemy psychic powers. And this is before any of your mandatory Daemon Princes are accounted for.

 

Not much to say here, just find room for Ahriman and at least one Thousand Sons Daemon Prince in your army if possible. These units will pay for their points easily.  

 

~~~~~

 

That's about it for starters! There are other dirty tricks that a CSM army can pull off, mostly from the Alpha Legion and Night Lords Legion Traits and strategems, feel free to do some research online if you are curious. I still think you really should wait for the upcoming CSM codex before committing to this army, but in the meantime may the odds ever be in your favor.  

[Varizel]

A lot of good points has been said about the rules and models, i just want to add though, that Chaos Marines new boxes are woefully lacking in options compared to the loyalist space marines (of any ilk) boxes. Lack of weapons from all those models or really limited in numbers. I don't have to say anything about chainaxes or Combi Weapons, For a veteran, this might not be so bad, but for a new player, with limited bits, this is horrible .... It forces you, if you are lazy like me or not good at modelling, to hunt for 3rd party solution or repurpose imperium weapon (not chaotic enough in my eyes, so not ideal for me). 

[Lucerne]

A lot of good points has been said about the rules and models, i just want to add though, that Chaos Marines new boxes are woefully lacking in options compared to the loyalist space marines (of any ilk) boxes. Lack of weapons from all those models or really limited in numbers. I don't have to say anything about chainaxes or Combi Weapons, For a veteran, this might not be so bad, but for a new player, with limited bits, this is horrible .... It forces you, if you are lazy like me or not good at modelling, to hunt for 3rd party solution or repurpose imperium weapon (not chaotic enough in my eyes, so not ideal for me). 

The way torsos and bolter hands work is also conversion-unfriendly.

[Panzer]

Was Chaos ever something else than a labor of love? Competetive lists popped up every now and then but not for very long and for the most part CSM were more on the weaker side as far as I remember. :sweat:

[Relic]

Collect what you think is cool and with the exception of old codex marines it is likely to have good and bad rules as the wheel turns and who is on top changes.

 

For what it is worth, whilst CSM is not on top compared to Space Marines, we do get plenty of model and fluff love compared to other factions.

[Goreshed]

If how good the model is on the battlefield is the topmost priority then you will spend an eternity chasing the meta all over creation. Outside of 3rd/4th edition, Chaos has always been the whipping boy of the line up because we are the number one enemy to the glory boys of the Space Marines. CSM are the logical opposite because, up until Primaris, they were the same and there was and still is a huge pull to that. Chaos is that darker threat, not only physically by burning worlds and killing the Imperium but also by the very heart strings and emotions because they are the physical manifestations of those who have fallen. It's a great story that has been told a hundred times.

 

But as someone has said before, every army is a labor of love. You put money into it (and frankly get more bang for your buck now in terms of quality than we have ever had). You spend time assembling, not to mention converting because out of all the armies (maybe Orks come close) we have the most modeling options for conversions by the very nature of our armies. You spend time painting them (again, a mirror of the conversion phase because...hey look renegades or just variations of Legion colors).

 

And as it was said, all of that makes it that much greater when you beat the dog snot out of a Loyalist army. Why? Because they assume because the internet said so, or whatever the meta is, that Chaos can't compete. But we do. Because we have had to make do with what we have before us for the past 6 editions.

 

So is Chaos a labor of love? Hellz yeah! But is it worth it? Even more so than any other army I feel.

[Bat33.1]

Well DG are looking at least a solid army if not a top tier option, they have not been hit too hard by point increases and the humble DG marine is at least resilient. They may no longer share the CSM codex but they are still chaos marines and nurgle csm were always popular. They also have the advantage of being reasonably cheap to buy thanks to conquest magazines and some of the etb kits but many of those are on the way out now.

 

1ksons also may have some builds that work in 9th from a couple of articles I've seen, not fully checked them out though.

 

Pure CSM codex build looks tough though until a new book drops