9th Ed Raven Guard Impressions

[duz_]

We have a few various threads floating around on theory crafting about how RG might interact in 9th. Now the rules are out this is a dedicated thread for people's impressions and batreps now the edition is officially out. I have my first game Wednesday against some AdMech.

[Frater Cornelius]

Since I have written mine down before, here's a link: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/332882-what-have-your-raven-guard-done-lately/?p=5576440

 

Key takeaways:

- Objectives are significantly more important and as such having sufficient boots, preferably with ObSec, is very important now, most so than most editions.

 

- The vanilla RG CT is great in light of the new vehicle cover and general terrain rules, but mostly favours objective camping and being defensive after the initial deploy. Overextension and splitting force into attackers and campers really hurt me.

A melee push army could work if you go all on and do a successor, but I'd argue that RG is still an inferior melee army than WS, BA and SW. RG are good at getting there, but get get nothing once they're there.

 

- Ranged anti-tank is still a very elusive concept, but the new releases may help us.

 

My takeaway from this is that I prefer melee as a defensive tool, i.e. countercharging, and mostly like to keep back until I either need to surgically remove something with a charge or retaliate if someone goes too far forward.

 

I think that my first major change this edition will be to drop the Aggressors and replace them with 2x3 Outriders. They cost the same and they open some interesting avenues:

 

- Aggressors telegraph your actions. If you have MoA, chances are great that they will be the benefactors. I'd rather keep MoA flexible and use it as a redeploy in response to what the opponent does. I could use SftS on them, but that means less boots on the ground, which I don't like, and I'd have to decide much earlier, because reserves are announced much earlier than other pregame stratagems, adding yet another layer of decision-making.

 

- They are only really useful at close range, whereas bikes can stay at an effective range of 44" and still fire. Plus, with Swift and Deadly, they can reach out to touch almost anything. Having the 2x3 bikes, outrider Chaplain with SaD, Canticle of Hate, and Shrike who either joins or uses Stratagems can really threaten exposed units or characters.

 

Aggressors may hit harder both at range and in melee, but they do not mesh well with my current gameplan and take away from some of my flexibility.

 

The biggest downside is that I lose my best melee anti-tank, so I need to compensate.

[AenarIT]

I'm trying my RG tonight for the first time in this edition (already played it with Tau though). 
I'll bring a RG successor 1500 points list with a Xenos Inquisitor, Jump Chaplain MoA+MoS, Librarian, 10 Infiltrators, 13 Intercessors, 3 AssCenturions, 4 Aggressors, 6 Eradicators and 5 GravDevastators. The latter 4 all in deepstrike or outflank (that's why I only have 4 Aggressors, to stay under the "half units, half points in reserves" limitation). Master Artisans and Long Range Marksmen as tactics. Starting with only 5 CP will be a challenge but I want to see how well an infantry-only deepstriking list does on the battlefield. The Ordo Xenos Inquisitor will perform actions and provide a way to regen CP.
At 2000 points I will add a character LevDread (Culln the Risen) and 1-2 Aggressors probably, but he's not fully painted and assembled yet.

I'll let you know my first impressions tomorrow.
 

[Riddlesworth]

I'm 6 games in. All played mostly at the Incursion level (1000 points).

 

- CP: I'm trying to limit how much CP im spending pre game, where our best stratagems are used to get where we need to be. Infiltrating phobos units onto objectives it pointless without supporting units (i'll come onto this later) which need CP to be in midfield in turn 1 to stop the troops getting picked off.

 

- The heavy support slot. Eradicators with SftS are clutch with the improvements to vehicles, but fitting eradicators and eliminators in the same list without multiple detachments (at 2k) is really hard and while eliminators are still good post price hike, they dont seem to be as mandatory for us as they used to be. Most of the characters i'm seeing are packing some kind of invun save so 1 eliminator squad in tactical doctrine are averaging 3.4 wounds against a T4, 4+ invun target. Realistically, I need 2, because I'm not likely to get 2 turns of shooting there before they've done their job due to combat and the amount of obscuring terrain. Which without spending CP means I probably only have 1 slot for eradicators. for other chapters its fine, but board control Ravenguard spend a lot of CP to do what they do and losing 2 more for an extra HS slot is a pain. More complex is the rise in multiwound marine units like outriders, aggressors and eradicators, who eliminators can do a job against.

 

- SftS Eradicators are superior to encirclement/strategic reserves Eradicators. 

 

- The board size. I run successor tactics, so I don't have insight on the effect it has on the new board size. I suspect fire bases will still love it, but with the game being forced to contest in the middle and objectives not being on terrain (so no dense terrain bonus), I don't feel it would be as useful for the guys fighting over the points - i wouldn't have benefitted from it hugely. Equally, i find myself looking at successor tactics that give +1 to advance and charge, or relics like Plume of the Planesrunner in White Scars and questionning whether MoA is that needed. I need to get to the middle. A decent advance roll gets me to the middle turn 1.

 

- Melee push. Consistent feedback from my opponents has been "you tagged me in combat turn 1 with your aggressors/invictors, but once I dealt with them, I didn't really have any other problems". I've actually been more successful going second because I've got my phobos troops onto 2 of the 4 or 5 objectives, used aggressors and invictors to support them as a counter punch and had a mobile contingent of inceptors/outriders picking up uncapped points elsewhere or contesting. but if i get first turn, i'm always falling into the trap of making that early push to relieve pressure and my opponent's army takes the initial losses then chews me up and spits me out. Spending turns 2-4 wiping my dudes off objectives.

 

- Related: whirlwind of rage is awesome until you roll a single 6 in the first round of combat ALL GAME.

 

- Obsec is HUGE, troops are important. Tagging my 5 intercessors on an objective with an outriders squad means im still holding the objective.

 

- Bolter inceptors + chaplain over Outriders for me right now. Shooting output is far superior. withdraw, shoot and charge compared to withdraw and shoot for outriders under the chapter litany (outriders want to be charging). Outriders are for harassment and point contesting, not a primary combat unit. The actual melee chapters will see many outriders though.

 

i feel like the way i've been playing the game i'd be significantly better off with blood angels or white scars strats/relics/powers but if i'm going to be successful with ravenguard, the gameplan has to be - get onto 2 objectives with obsec units, support them with counter punch (bladeguard / aggressors). This should force the enemy to come to my strongest point rather than me pushing on them. Then having a fast brick (inceptors, biker chaplain, outriders) for harassment, contesting and trying to nab a third point to max the primary before turn 5 is going to be a lot better than trying a melee push and hanging on in the later turns.

 

And also finding a suitable replacement for whirlwind of rage. Because i cannot roll 6s it seems. except when it doesn't count.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Riddlesworth

[Frater Cornelius]

- Melee push. Consistent feedback from my opponents has been "you tagged me in combat turn 1 with your aggressors/invictors, but once I dealt with them, I didn't really have any other problems". I've actually been more successful going second because I've got my phobos troops onto 2 of the 4 or 5 objectives, used aggressors and invictors to support them as a counter punch and had a mobile contingent of inceptors/outriders picking up uncapped points elsewhere or contesting. but if i get first turn, i'm always falling into the trap of making that early push to relieve pressure and my opponent's army takes the initial losses then chews me up and spits me out. Spending turns 2-4 wiping my dudes off objectives.

 

This has been my experience as well. Unless you can decisively cripple the opponent with melee pressure, you're better off playing a less aggressive style.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Frater Cornelius

[MajorNese]

- Melee push. Consistent feedback from my opponents has been "you tagged me in combat turn 1 with your aggressors/invictors, but once I dealt with them, I didn't really have any other problems". I've actually been more successful going second because I've got my phobos troops onto 2 of the 4 or 5 objectives, used aggressors and invictors to support them as a counter punch and had a mobile contingent of inceptors/outriders picking up uncapped points elsewhere or contesting. but if i get first turn, i'm always falling into the trap of making that early push to relieve pressure and my opponent's army takes the initial losses then chews me up and spits me out. Spending turns 2-4 wiping my dudes off objectives.

This.

When I intended to overwhelm a certain area with sheer numbers, and the opponent preferred to get close too, I rather spent the first turn (when going first) with consolidating forces in the middle, in terrain (deployment often prohibits some good spots), to have everything (including reserves) in range to make a massive push turn 2.

Arriving piecemeal, keeping forces back, and spreading all over the area only weakens the push you need to create pressure, and few units in front of an entire army just evaporate. Rather overwhelm one area, and you can take out more than just the bubblewrap, while being less prone to counter fire/charge since the largest threats in that area are removed.

I may not play marines until the codex hits (it's a waste of time for me, given the low number of games ATM), but the point of concentrating units has been rather unchanged in the past editions.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

We have a few various threads floating around on theory crafting about how RG might interact in 9th. Now the rules are out this is a dedicated thread for people's impressions and batreps now the edition is officially out. I have my first game Wednesday against some AdMech.

So here are some lessons I have learned about 9th:

 

1. Close Combat is lethal. If you get charged you will likely wipe. Raven Guard are not an assault army, we're reliant on Characters like Shrike to buff our CC.

2. Most missions don't score first turn, so grabbing objectives early doesn't mean anything. You want the objective at the top of T2.

3. Taking objectives is easier than holding them.

4. Incursors are aggressively ok. They shoot like Marinelets, but they fight better (slightly) than stock intercessors, but it's not enough to save them.

5. Incursor's haywire mine is ok. Can make it a bit costly to charge them.

6. DO NOT COUNT ON GOING FIRST! For the love of God, you will be screwed. Conservative deployment.

7. DO NOT GET CLOSE TO ASSAULT ARMIES! T1 Charges are real, and it's nasty.

 

Upsides are if you're running lots of primaris, they can be really hard to shift, due to being 2 wounds or more each. Makes them survivable, but even marinelets are capable in enough numbers to wipe them. Outriders are good, as are Eradicators. The Neo-Volkite pistol is a really nasty little surprise at a 15" pistol 2 S5 AP0 that causes mortal wounds on 6's. Rolling boxcars will net you at least one dead primaris marine, total of three if the opponent fails their armor saves. That's nasty, and I got to see it firsthand.

 

The Judiciar is a nasty little surprise as well, making your opponent fight last is rough, especially when they charged you (I got bent over by that, and I hated it). Needless to say, the Indomitus box is fantastic, and If you don't know what any of it does, it can really screw you.

 

I think that there are going to be some nerfs once the SM codex comes out, or at least there should be.

 

Things of mine that performed well, Leviathan Dreads and las fusil eliminators. My infantry died hard. MoA with aggressors was good, but it's not an assault unit, and they need shooting buffs to really make them nasty. I'd rather uses SftS or infiltrators to move units around, if only SftS hadn't been nerf-batted to oblivion (thanks LVO), it can still get aggressors in range to make use of their shooting.

 

Also, terrain makes a huge difference. Make good use of it. My board yesterday was very sparse, and it hurt, a lot.

 

My Aggressors got totally wrecked in melee by outriders and the Judiciar and terminators. Assault centurions are still good, and they hurt.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Things of mine that performed well, Leviathan Dreads and las fusil eliminators.

 

Please elaborate on the Las Fusils. There is an ongoing debate about that.

 

You experience seems to be en par with most of us. I think that we all got rather used to RG doing melee in 8ed, because no one else did. Now, with all the melee guys coming out of the woodwork, it really shows that the only melee RG should be doing is counter-charges and surgical charges to remove a character or scoring unit.

[Riddlesworth]

2. Most missions don't score first turn, so grabbing objectives early doesn't mean anything. You want the objective at the top of T2.

 

But you score in the command phase, so if you don't get on the objective T1, you don't score in T2

[Dracos]

 

So here are some lessons I have learned about 9th:

 

 

I think that there are going to be some nerfs once the SM codex comes out, or at least there should be.

 

 

My infantry died hard. MoA with aggressors was good, but it's not an assault unit, and they need shooting buffs to really make them nasty. I'd rather uses SftS or infiltrators to move units around, if only SftS hadn't been nerf-batted to oblivion (thanks LVO)

 

I've been seeing many nerfs to SM/RG as beginning at 9e. I'm curious what in Indomitus you find OP. I think you might be over-reacting a bit to the Judiciar. One Eliminator squad kill s the boy dead in one round of shooting. I'm not seeing anything (rules-wise) that screams "Me me take me", over what we already have available. Aggressors and Inceptors are still bosses in my mind. Take two units each and flood the board with your favorite flavor of Intercessors after that.

 

Did I miss a SftS nerf?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

Things of mine that performed well, Leviathan Dreads and las fusil eliminators.

 

Please elaborate on the Las Fusils. There is an ongoing debate about that.

 

You experience seems to be en par with most of us. I think that we all got rather used to RG doing melee in 8ed, because no one else did. Now, with all the melee guys coming out of the woodwork, it really shows that the only melee RG should be doing is counter-charges and surgical charges to remove a character or scoring unit.

 

The Las Fusils reliably did damage against vehicles, which is exactly why I took them. I was in need of anti-vehicle and Eliminators are one of the primaris units that do it. I got my hands on an Indomitus box today, and I'm planning on adding Eradicators to my list to really bring the Heavy Support slot to bear as my anti-vehicle section. I have invictors, but those are big targets that will wither and die quickly under fire from a dedicated anti-vehicle unit.

 

 

 

2. Most missions don't score first turn, so grabbing objectives early doesn't mean anything. You want the objective at the top of T2.

But you score in the command phase, so if you don't get on the objective T1, you don't score in T2

 

Yeah, I had to go back and reread that. Problem is, I haven't figured out how to grab a mid field objective in a way that doesn't put me in range for a T1 charge. I get wiped off the objective before I can score it.  It's probably because I'm bad, but the game seems to be designed to punish you for doing anything remotely Raven Guard-y.

[Dracos]

My opinion for midboard control

 

Deployement: 1 unit of 5 Infiltrators + 1 unit of [strat: Infiltrator] 5 Aggressors. Infiltrators throw smoke if needed / per Objective. I like doubling down on this for two different Objectives if possible.

 

Turn One: Move/Advance an Intercessor squad toward each Objective. 15 models, 35 wounds (15 @ T5), 20 wounds which are ObSec and coming in two waves (I think Assault Intercessors would be good here for potential counter charge). 

 

 

Use the other 1000+ points to protect your own backfield (say 400 points?) and the other 600 points to distraction Carnifex your opponent and grab opportunities for other primaries and secondaries.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

My opinion for midboard control

 

Deployement: 1 unit of 5 Infiltrators + 1 unit of [strat: Infiltrator] 5 Aggressors. Infiltrators throw smoke if needed / per Objective. I like doubling down on this for two different Objectives if possible.

I like incursors versus infiltrators, they still have the smoke grenades and they also have the haywire mine. I only have 6 aggressors and it's broken down into two units of 3 (I guess I can always get more...). This seems like I could modify this to work with what I have. I could kit out my intercessors with the veteran upgrade, to make my intercessors a bit more threatening, then I could take my incursors for the threat they provide, and I would use my three man aggressors. Probably not as optimized, but I'm not playing tournaments.

 

 

Use the other 1000+ points to protect your own backfield (say 400 points?) and the other 600 points to distraction Carnifex your opponent and grab opportunities for other primaries and secondaries.

I have the blade guard veterans which are a huge melee threat. I take eliminators and invictors in pretty much every list, so that could work well as my backline support and my distraction carnifex. I could park my eradicators and my eliminators in the back and pop anything that get close, while my invictors go provide a distraction.

 

[Dracos]

The key to my concept is two waves of ObSec. I think Infiltrators are better because the two units deny a full two feet more of the field and make next to impossible to hit from reserves. Your right that armies fast ot of the deployment zone are going to crush them but that's why I infiltrate Aggressors (Blade Guard would serve as well). 

 

In your case I would substitute the Invictors to support the Incursors. Still need that second wave of ObSec, and then SftS with the Aggresors where needed most. Since hey are coming from reserve you could use two units of three but I suspect 6 is better using the Eradicators to support the other Objective if possible. 

 

Take 3 , Deny 1 , Ignore 2 and you have a 45 to 30 advantage before Secondaries

[Riddlesworth]

Note a raven guard experience but I've been on the receiving end of white scars (doctrine off and doctrine on) and blood angels (same) bladeguard charges.

 

Ours won't be as killy, but they are a hell.of a counterpunch

[Frater Cornelius]

Note a raven guard experience but I've been on the receiving end of white scars (doctrine off and doctrine on) and blood angels (same) bladeguard charges.

 

Ours won't be as killy, but they are a hell.of a counterpunch

RG BGV can have other uses. 1+ 4++ and -1 to hit when camping on an objective in cover. There isn't much shooting that could shift them reliably. You can also use them to perform Actions, either in the center or in the opponent's deployment zone. They don't have shooting anyway, and if the opponent charges, they can gold their ground. We can also get them there with SftS. For 105pts that's something worth considering.