Turn 1 Deepstrike?

[Holier Than Thou]

Am I missing this or can we now Deepstrike turn 1? All I can find in the rulebook is the restriction that units in Strategic Reserves must wait for turn 2, nothing about units that have their own Deepstrike abilities.

[Brother Bahram]

Yes.

Deep strike and Drop Pods turn 1, 2 or 3

[Holier Than Thou]

Great, thanks for confirming.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Double check the matched play rules, as they might have restrictions specific to those games. I'd do so myself but the book isn't out in digital and thus I don't have a coppy.

[BluejayJunior]

Double check the matched play rules, as they might have restrictions specific to those games. I'd do so myself but the book isn't out in digital and thus I don't have a coppy.

This ^

It's the same as 8th. The core rules don't prevent you from deep striking on Turn 1, but the matched play rules do. It is in the strategic reserves section of the matched play rules. 

[Holier Than Thou]

Yep, found it. That’s a shame, oh well. Thanks.

[Brother Bahram]

Oh- must check that....

[MasterDeath]

I know this is kinda Necro, but the Strategic Reserve rules do not apply to "natural" Deepstrikers like Terminators (p. 256 paragraph 2). I cannot find a limitation that stops a turn 1 deepstrike. Did one of you guys? Edit: If anyone is still looking: p. 282 para 3)

Edited September 14, 2020 by MasterDeath

[Oxydo]

I know this is kinda Necro, but the Strategic Reserve rules do not apply to "natural" Deepstrikers like Terminators (p. 256 paragraph 2). I cannot find a limitation that stops a turn 1 deepstrike. Did one of you guys? Edit: If anyone is still looking: p. 282 para 3)

 

If you look at page 208 it describes Reinforcements and how they are defined, i e everything that's not set up on the board is Reinforcement. This includes terminator deepstrike for instance.

Page 282 talks about both Strategic Reserves and Reinforcement, and how they have the same limitations as to when they can arrive. So no, you can't deepstrike/any other reinforcement ability during turn 1 in Matched Play unless said ability explicitely says you can, drop pods being such an example.

[bristlybadger]

Ok, I'll bite:

 

Quote, Matched Play:

"In Eternal War missions, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battle round."

 

Quote, Crusade Mission Pack:

"In these missions, Reinforcement units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battle round (but Strategic Reserve units can)."

 

I suppose we should read that as Strategic Reserves being a subgroup of reinforcements and specifically pointed out to have lighter restrictions in this (Crusade) case.

 

However, since Strategic Reserves have specific rules for arrival, it seems that in the BRB they cannot arrive turn 1 anyway.

 

P256:

Starting from the second battle round, Strategic Reserve units that arrive can be set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge other than the enemy's battlefield edge, but no model can be set up within the enemy's deployment zone. Starting from the third battle round, Strategic Reserve units that arrive can be set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge other than the enemy's battlefield edge.

 

I guess future Crusade missions will override this and give us rules for arriving turn 1? Or have I missed something?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yeah - I don't know how you can read those 2 rules regarding Strategic Reserves and Crusade missions - one of them has to be false.  Given that there are no rules for where Strategic Reserves arrive on the 1st turn, it has to be the Crusade Mission Pack that is wrong - it tries to make an exception to a rule without giving the rules that would allow that exception to occur.

[Dam13n]

Don't forget that some armies can summon Reinforcements using left over points. Like Chaos Marines summoning Daemons for example.

 

It looks like the Crusade rules prohibit those sort of reinforcements on turn 1 while allowing pre-bought units (that appear on your starting roster) to use strategic reserves based abilities (like jump/jet packs etc.) to arrive on turn 1.

 

Essentially Reinforcements and Strategic Reserves are 2 completely different things. Even though they both allow units to arrive during the battle, the way they work is different.

 

As far as the quote from p256 goes, maybe GW implemented redundancy by stating the 2nd turn onwards restriction in both places, then decided to change the rules for Crusade missions but forgot about the redundancy, thus leaving a conflict.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Dam13n

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Except that's not how the new rules use the 2 terms, neither of which seems to include units bought from points during the game.

 

"Reinforcements" is a general term that refers to units that are with held from the battlefield and brought on during the Reinforcements sub-phase. (see page 64 of the Mission Pack, page 208 of the Core Rule Book).  This is the category that includes jump/jump pack troops (and deepstriking termies, etc)

 

In 8th, Strategic Reserves are a specific type of reserves that aare withheld from the battlefield using the Strategic Reserves rules (see pages 80 and 81 of the Mission Pack, pages 256-257 of the Core Rule Book) - which costs CP based on the total power level of units put into Strategic Reserves, states you can't come on in Turn 1, and requires you to deploy within 6" of a table edge, with which table edge that must be expanding from turn to turn.  So, a very specific set of rules on how units can be put into reserves, and how and when they can come out of reserves.

 

Aircraft leaving the battlefield and returning ostensibly also use the Strategic Reserves rule, though they use the more traditional '"deepstrike" more than 9" from enemy' rule for coming on. 

 

 

The rules also specifically deal with Repositioned and Replacement units (page 90 of the Mission Pack, page 363 of the Core Rules), neither of which are Reinforcements or Strategic Reserves.

 

 

Neither term (Reinforcements or Strategic Reserves) applies directly to units that are purchased from a pool of points during the battle, such as chaos demons.  Indeed, I could find no such mention of such units in the rules.  Since such units depend entirely on their specific rules for how and when they come on the battlefield, I don't think they fall under the terms Reinforcements or Strategic Reserves.  For example, some such units (for example, horrors that split when killed) by their rules come in at different times than the Reinforcement sub-phase, so really can't fall under the Reinforcements rule.  Likewise, such units don't even exist until they are brought on (unlike units put into reinforcements or strategic reserves from your army) as there only a pool of points that don't form units until you "create" those units by bringing them onto the battlefield, so can't form a unit that count as destroyed if unused by the end of the game - which is a rule that applies to Reinforcements.

 

So, neither Reinforcements or Strategic Reserves are limited to units bought from a pool of points after the battle is started, and it is questionable whether such mid-battle purchased units even classify as reinforcements (they certainly aren't strategic reserves).

 

 

Now the problem is that, while Reinforcements have the rules for deployment built into the individual units' rules, Strategic Reserves do not.  Rather, the rules for coming onto the table depend on what turn it is.  There are literally no rules for how something is to come onto the table from Strategic Reserves on turn 1.   That means that, with the conflict of rules between the Strategic Reserves rules and the Crusade Mission Pack rules, it is impossible to resolve that dispute in favour of the Crusade rules within the rules that exist, as doing so would require the players to make up rules to allow that to occur.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Dr_Ruminahui