Repulse or Attrack, the debate of tanks and merit

[Volt]

They look good, the problem is purely one of thematics with Cawl taking all of Priestly's themes and intentions and   them. The Imperium is supposed to be stagnant, while technological progression happens it is slow and half archeology instead of pure innovation. While the Imperium used to have grav vehicles (such as in the prieslty days) these were incredibly old vehicles that had been around forever, and used antigrav instead of new repulsor technology. While GW may argue that repulsor tech fits the themes of the Imperium by being brutal, frankly they're wrong and not paying attention to the core of Warhammer's idea at inception where totally new technology doesn't happen. The Imperium is not sleek, it is not evolutionary, it is decaying and stagnated. What would make far more sense is that, if Space Marines must have antigrav technology by GW's obsessions, then they should have been made from frakenstein assembly of landspeeder grav plates. Cawl merely taking existing technology and dabbling in semi heretical cobbling rather than simply pulling totally new tech out of his arse.

 

Namely the problem is that GW's attempt to dodge 'advanced' true antigrav is in fact actually the problem, as instead of taking what exists and modifying it (which is very imperial in behavior), we have this totally new technology even though that is certainly not supposed to happen in the Imperium.

[Captain Idaho]

That is certainly an aspect that has been in decline in the fiction with the focus on Space Marines and Primaris in particular. Imperial stagnation is still there, mostly in the novels etc but playing the game there is none of that feeling anymore.

[Minsc]

That is certainly an aspect that has been in decline in the fiction with the focus on Space Marines and Primaris in particular. Imperial stagnation is still there, mostly in the novels etc but playing the game there is none of that feeling anymore.

Agreed.

 

Remember when Tau was the new kid on the block who's sole shtick was rapid innovation and increasingly advanced technology, which resulted on the tabletop as basic Troops with 30" range weaponry (unheard of at the time) and anti-grav technology that just like the two old technological advanced powerhouses (Eldar and Necrons)?

 

Remember when Imperial armies felt robust but stagnant, using outdated technology that still worked after thousands of years and where new forms of tools of war was rare and met with skepticism if not outright hostility? 

 

Those where the days...

 

[Dracos]

I have to say while I love the game and many of the themes, the stagnation of technological innovation ... for 10,000 years was always one of the hardest ideas to try to immerse oneself into. It's a concept that lacked any basis in reality. Sure could be something that hampers it for a while, but war itself is a driving force in technological advancement. An empire spanning the galaxy is going to be so massive so divisive, so widespread, that accidental invention, let alone directed research from "heretics" is going to unleash the genie from his bottle, and as we all know from society today, once that genie is out there, there's no putting it back in the bottle. 

 

It was unrealistic and hard to go with in the 80's, it has to be almost impossible for the current generation of new players to "buy into". I grew up with rotary phones and I thought it was counter-intuitive to human nature, these kids have grown up with smartphones as part of their grade school experience. If you want what is good for the future of the hobby GW better find a way to appeal to the current and future generation ideas of what basic technology is and what they consider cool sci-fi. That would include having an App that actually works with the game smoothly but that's another discussion.

 

Plus it's not Repulsor tech is all over the place. It is represented on a select type of vehicle for a very select organization. Custodes, Sisters, Guard, Inquisition none are rocking Repulsors ... unless they are dealing with Primaris Marines. In the grand scheme of the Imperium that's a pretty small number. It just seems bigger because of the focus on the Primaris line. Give it another year or two and it'll be old hat. Take it from someone whose been with the game fro 30 years. The models are gorgeous, the game is streamlined, and the lore is deeper than ever. Change isn't bad. The game either grows or it dies. I want growth.

 

 

Adapt, Improvise and Overcome ... if you can't live by those words, you deserve to consider yourself a Marine.

[Gothical]

If you clean up the Repulsor then I really like it. The Impulsor is OK, and the new Gladiator seems pretty good from what we have seen so far.

 

I don't hate tracked vehicles - far from it, I am a massive tread-head both in-game with my Imperial Guard and in the real world with tank museums! The Land Raider is iconic and a really nice design, and whilst I love the silhouette of the Rhino and Predator, I find the models themselves to be a bit bland - the sides are just plain and flat (the Imperial Guard vehicles are sectioned armour plates with rivets and fittings for sprockets and suspension as well as access hatches). For the Predator I find this really annoying as it has no additional armour plating (I miss the old Forge World kit for this). The Vindicator is nice because of the additional armour sitting over the hull and front third of the side whilst the Hunter/Stalker are packing additional plating as well as the bracing poles. The biggest issue I have is the massive hatch at the back, rather than having a more appropriate crew-access portal. I also absolutely hate the Demios turrets from the Forge World Heresy range for their weird bubble-ness (far more anti-imperial-aesthetic than grav)!

 

The Land Raider does have some additional detail as well as a brutal silhouette and profile so I love that beast.

 

The Repulsor has a great profile too but does need decluttering - leave off the big gunsight, don't use the co-axial Heavy Stubber, reposition the krak grenade launchers, use Auto-Launchers instead of Fragstorm Launchers and use Storm Bolters instead of Fragstorm Launchers. The rear weapon looks best as either Storm Bolter or Icarus Rocket Pod. Once you have done all of that you have a fairly clean-looking and brutal vehicle. You can even avoid using a pintle-mounted weapon if you use the turret co-axial point as a mount instead of the pintle (works best with the stubber for ease of fitting and not dominating the small turret with two gatling cannons!) to keep the overall silhouette more compact.

 

I like the bulk of the Repulsor Executioner turret layout - I prefer the Storm Bolters up there instead of over the doors, the larger turret looks a lot more menacing but I can't stand the even larger rear gun an the fact it kept so many grenades/assault launchers! (I wonder if my locals wouldn't object to me making a "down-gunned" Executioner and running it as a regular Repulsor for the looks...)

 

The main thing I dislike is the "ski" where the tracks would normally be, especially as it appears to end in a handle. I would certainly prefer the design if it didn't had that, and kept to the "bumper" repulsor plates elsewhere on the model.

[Urkh]

I'm personally not a fan of the entire aesthetic of primaris at all, including the tanks. I also agree with what OP said about them being able to do things like flatten enemies or bash through buildings while a land raider can't? Remember the old days of tank shock and ramming? I loved that stuff.

 

Oh well... I'm more of a drop pod guy anyways. Just wish dreads could use them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Forgeworld has a Dreadnaught drop pod .

[MegaVolt87]

Eh, its too late already. Just should front port the HH vechiles like that new bombard thing for old marines and anything else that gets released there. Primaris getting tanks with treads isn't going to happen.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Personally, although my Chapter is full Primaris, I'm still using the old tracked support tanks (old Dreadnoughts too), as I just say that it's an unarmoured Primaris piloting it. Sure, they can't fit Primaris into the troop compartment of a Rhino, but they can certainly fit one in the "drivers seat" of a Predator, even if some things had to get shuffled around a bit.

[Zustiur]

Like many here, I can't stand the new vehicles. Including both dreadnoughts. I don't think the repulsor is salvageable, but the impulsor and Gladiator may be. If only there was an easy way to give them tracks.

 

It's the models that really break it for me. The fluff is fine. Smashing the ground works as 40k tech. I like that. It just looks dumb and isn't helped by the fly rule meaning they can leap tall buildings in a single bound. Also, floating on water does not fit with pulverising the ground.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Zustiur

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well just take the old tanks and transports... I heard OG Marines are making a big comeback ...

[WrathOfTheLion]

That isn't the point a lot of people are making, it's not a binary choice like that.

 

For example, I don't like repulsors. I do like most Primaris units. I do like Land Raiders. So I want the tracked LR and I want to stick Primaris in it.

[War Angel]

You can punch water to stay afloat too.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Ask your opponents if they’ll let you house rule it - that's prolly your best chance .

[chapter master 454]

The main trouble I have had with any plans for tracking the tanks as I have seen conversions, is sourcing the tracks. The Repulsor Chassis needs land raider tracks (and some minor extras for fitting to make it clean) while for the Impulsor Chassis it is likely good enough with rhino tracks but again, sourcing and the awkward little rise at the back makes it awkward.

 

Really the Grav-Tanks of Marines shouldn't ever of had fly to begin with, similar to how the mechanicus tank thing in fluff hovers but doesn't have the fly keyword. However I have made notes that certain key elements of the grav-plates can be modified to help the visual of the tank. Notably: Not putting all 50 thousand safety bumpers on. There is a seriously nice looking chassis in there that hardly gets to show those sexy hard edges it has because of the foul borderline xenos tech grav plates!

 

...you know...starting to feel like that character from one of the Oglaf comics.

 

"Anything that floats is Sorcery"

"You can punch the ground to float, do you consider that Sorcery?"

"Borderline"

[War Angel]

You got a lot of hate for the model.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Part of the fun of the hobby is converting... could be a fun project too .

[chapter master 454]

You got a lot of hate for the model.

 

I will point out that there would be much less conversation about the vehicles if they were tracked. This isn't even me, a big sticking point for many is the grav plates yet what if they were traditional tanks? Would anyone be saying "man, I wish they were grav tanks" "I wish they have plates on the side for grav instead". I don't think so. It really comes down to something that we didn't really ask for and at the time being forced to likely at some point ether take it or be screwed out of armour. However now with the firstborn boosts that seems much less likely and so my strong repulsion of the design has lessened but not abated.

 

However that being said, underneath the rather poor design of the tanks is something that could be made to look much better and I theorise that it is from having too many of those grav-plates on the tank along with their design (mainly just getting rid of the carry handles). Doesn't stop you liking the model much like you liking it doesn't stop me hating it, you just need to remember that if you see my name, likely my opinion of the grav-tanks will be negative and not pleasant.

Key exceptions are the Impulsor and the new Storm Speeder where being grav is something that can work (the impulsor to help it move fast as is its lore and the storm speeder is based on the Land Speeder so naturally it would be grav. However I will point out I only have 2 land speeders and they don't get much love anyway!)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I mean like this is sci-fi seriously ...

 

grav tech just makes sense really. Could you imagine like watching the Flintstones and they have say Space rockets? It wouldn’t make any sense right and would kill the immersion. Hopefully we will see new tech for guard eventually as well. I think that would be cool... for example rough riders only jet bikes and grav russes.

[War Angel]

I mean like this is sci-fi seriously ...

 

grav tech just makes sense really. Could you imagine like watching the Flintstones and they have say Space rockets? It wouldn’t make any sense right and would kill the immersion. Hopefully we will see new tech for guard eventually as well. I think that would be cool... for example rough riders only jet bikes and grav russes.

I would love to see some jet pack infantry for guard. I know they have them in the fluff (not just limited to one regiment either)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah that would be cool Cawl sharing some of his love .

[9x19 Parabellum]

+1 for tracks here.  I just prefer the aesthetics.

[MegaVolt87]

I mean like this is sci-fi seriously ...

 

grav tech just makes sense really. Could you imagine like watching the Flintstones and they have say Space rockets? It wouldn’t make any sense right and would kill the immersion. Hopefully we will see new tech for guard eventually as well. I think that would be cool... for example rough riders only jet bikes and grav russes.

Heck, just may as well reinstate the 30k Solar Auxillia at that point if you want to give high tech stuff like that out lol. At least it would be cheaper for HH players as well with Solar Auxillia plastics replacing the resin infantry.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I like the modeling and painting that you can do with tracked vehicles. I think they're more fun for the hobby, can do things like weathering, mud effects, etc. on them.

From a lore perspective as well, we know that the universe is a futuristic one. However, the imperium is meant to look regressive. Having things that we know are inferior or more primitive makes it more immersive to me and matches the theme of what the imperium is. The new tanks break that immersion, and then in lore they have to spend all this effort reestablishing the context of the imperium and its regressive nature, as we don't see that visually.

[tychobi]

For me this question boils down to how you feel about the primaris expansion.

 

There should be an Imperial civil war over Cawls heresy. Like most issues in 40k usually the best way forward is a good war! Truemarine vs Primaris for the heart of the emperor and the fate of man. It writes itself and gives backround to the loyalist marine scrum meta.

 

I like look of the new tanks. Have not figured out sloped armor but hover tek no prob! We do not want 40k to make sense. I just wish they tried a bit harder fluff wise.