Repulse or Attrack, the debate of tanks and merit

[Ishagu]

Cawl worked under the order of the Lord Regent, and prior to that studied and worked alongside the Emperor himself. They both have the blessing of the Custodes.

 

Anyone fighting against the Primaris is strictly a Heretic and a traitor to the Imperium

[MegaVolt87]

Cawl worked under the order of the Lord Regent, and prior to that studied and worked alongside the Emperor himself. They both have the blessing of the Custodes.

Anyone fighting against the Primaris is strictly a Heretic and a traitor to the Imperium

Just remember though every primaris contingent that was shipped to an old marine chapter had a custodes contingent to have to tell the old marines, this is ok and the Emperor approves. RG also directly petitioned the Ordos Xenos to formally add many primaris to the deathwatch. Always thought it interesting the inquisition was complying with marching orders from a primarch instead of the custodes. Just imagine how poorly the majority of the primaris hand over would have been without the custodes there.....

[War Angel]

 

Cawl worked under the order of the Lord Regent, and prior to that studied and worked alongside the Emperor himself. They both have the blessing of the Custodes.

Anyone fighting against the Primaris is strictly a Heretic and a traitor to the Imperium

 

Just remember though every primaris contingent that was shipped to an old marine chapter had a custodes contingent to have to tell the old marines, this is ok and the Emperor approves. RG also directly petitioned the Ordos Xenos to formally add many primaris to the deathwatch. Always thought it interesting the inquisition was complying with marching orders from a primarch instead of the custodes. Just imagine how poorly the majority of the primaris hand over would have been without the custodes there.....

 

Think about it. A bunch of people you’ve never met before wearing armor marks you’ve never seen before show up and tell you that a primarch you thought died along time ago told them they were to join you in your secret armed bouncier fortress.

 

That sounds like the absolute worst Saturday morning alpha legion trickery attempt to infiltrate cobra command ever.

[chapter master 454]

Cawl worked under the order of the Lord Regent, and prior to that studied and worked alongside the Emperor himself. They both have the blessing of the Custodes.

 

Anyone fighting against the Primaris is strictly a Heretic and a traitor to the Imperium

 

So that would include the Custodes who merced an entire chapter-reinforcement worth of them purely because the chapter they were being sent to (and thus had never met and only heard of) had gone rogue and so the custodes decided to merc them purely on that basis alone. Just saying, the Custodes don't like them and only ship them because the Primarch told them too and that is purely under the the fact their weird "I speak to the dead" sect were like "na its cool, Big E said yea, my son made some more babies for my main army babies" which under all other accounts the custodes thus now begrudgingly ship these primaris to their chapters because they were told too but would rather merc them given even the slightest reason, much like how the inquisition is with exterminatus.

 

-Ahem-

 

I will continue to point that the thread was aimed for discussing the visuals of the primaris tanks and rapidly got de-railed so quickly it was leaving a different platform than intended! It is without question that the designs have been divisive on various points, my primaris point of note -heh- is that I personally think the grav plates look Xenos-Ugly however most of the chassis I actually don't mind (though the repulsor baby turret isn't a great look).

 

However I would like to comment that I feel my thread served its purpose, and now is valid for the Emperor's peace. No further ground can be made as we all have made our very vocal opinions on the designs and neither side will be swayed one way or the other. One side wants tracks, the other wants Xenos tech ( ;) ). Clearly we have different opinions of what the factions should be and that is the nature of the beast that is a forum of many fraters.

[Ishagu]

The example above is a garbage fire story that damages the setting and makes the Custodes look stupid more than anything else.

 

Trash like this exists, unfortunately. There is a lot of 40k fiction.

[War Angel]

 

Cawl worked under the order of the Lord Regent, and prior to that studied and worked alongside the Emperor himself. They both have the blessing of the Custodes.

Anyone fighting against the Primaris is strictly a Heretic and a traitor to the Imperium

 

 

So that would include the Custodes who merced an entire chapter-reinforcement worth of them purely because the chapter they were being sent to (and thus had never met and only heard of) had gone rogue and so the custodes decided to merc them purely on that basis alone. Just saying, the Custodes don't like them and only ship them because the Primarch told them too and that is purely under the the fact their weird "I speak to the dead" sect were like "na its cool, Big E said yea, my son made some more babies for my main army babies" which under all other accounts the custodes thus now begrudgingly ship these primaris to their chapters because they were told too but would rather merc them given even the slightest reason, much like how the inquisition is with exterminatus.

 

-Ahem-

 

I will continue to point that the thread was aimed for discussing the visuals of the primaris tanks and rapidly got de-railed so quickly it was leaving a different platform than intended! It is without question that the designs have been divisive on various points, my primaris point of note -heh- is that I personally think the grav plates look Xenos-Ugly however most of the chassis I actually don't mind (though the repulsor baby turret isn't a great look).

 

However I would like to comment that I feel my thread served its purpose, and now is valid for the Emperor's peace. No further ground can be made as we all have made our very vocal opinions on the designs and neither side will be swayed one way or the other. One side wants tracks, the other wants Xenos tech ( ;) ). Clearly we have different opinions of what the factions should be and that is the nature of the beast that is a forum of many fraters.

To be fair, the propose of the thread is for fraters to trash on the models they don’t like purely because it doesn’t fit the ascetics that those individuals prefer.

[Fajita Fan]

That isn't the point a lot of people are making, it's not a binary choice like that.

 

For example, I don't like repulsors. I do like most Primaris units. I do like Land Raiders. So I want the tracked LR and I want to stick Primaris in it.

This this this.

 

Gimme a Landraider on steroids with a big plow on the front and the turret from the Repulsor. Space Marines don’t need hover tanks regardless of lore changes or advancements. It makes Tau or Eldar less special too and that’s a big part of those armies’ appeal.

[chapter master 454]

For War Angel: Yes, It was a venue for me to express my opinion which is no secret that I am pointing all Godhammers at those safety bumpers you love but in the same way you've had all Laser Destroyers pointed at my old fashioned tracks that trudge along. However that is what I to some extent intended to happen (not us specifically) but in some way of being constructive however I suppose that sunk fast didn't it? I suppose at the very least we haven't gone the route of most Primaris vs. Firstborn threads which devolves into attacks on fellow fraters instead of the tracks and plates!

 

I will point that we have had others way in with opinions both side of the road.

 

Also, I am surprisingly agreeing with Ishagu with that story that I referred to. I only presented it as a comical counterpoint to his statement, however it does cheapen mainly the custodes who are supposed to be about logic, not superstition (with only exception being their Misercordia).

 

Now I will attempt to tank control ourselves onto some points since the Emperor's peace seems out of the question so to zogg with it, lets have some good ol' armoured engagements!

 Ok, so lets do some probing what part of the new designs resonates with you war angel compared to the older designs? For the instance what parts of the old design are improved by new Primaris designs? I won't debate the sponsons, the new versions look much better. In fact I wager we could agree on many areas but may as well see where you come from, are the Primaris tanks 100% like or are there things you don't like.

 

Right well, there's my shooting phase done. No charges, no fights. We know no fear so no morale. Your move, any beginning of turn abilities?

[Snazzy]

 

Cawl worked under the order of the Lord Regent, and prior to that studied and worked alongside the Emperor himself. They both have the blessing of the Custodes.

Anyone fighting against the Primaris is strictly a Heretic and a traitor to the Imperium

Just remember though every primaris contingent that was shipped to an old marine chapter had a custodes contingent to have to tell the old marines, this is ok and the Emperor approves. RG also directly petitioned the Ordos Xenos to formally add many primaris to the deathwatch. Always thought it interesting the inquisition was complying with marching orders from a primarch instead of the custodes. Just imagine how poorly the majority of the primaris hand over would have been without the custodes there.....

 

 

I mean, i was introduced to the game from the perspective of a Rogue Trader with unlimited ability to command the resources of the Imperium.

 

On the other hand, Chapters have gone rogue on the Imperium for less.

[jaxom]

Here's how I'd go about converting the Repulsor to meet my aesthetic needs. 

1. Fill in the "handles" on the front 'track' grav-plates.
2. Remove the top half of the 'bumper' grav-plates and reinforce the prow to resemble either land raider or rhino.
3. Remove the stowage on the back-sides.
4. Remove the turret. A key feature of land raiders and rhinos is the brick profile and the turret ruins that. As an aside: compare the turret profile of the predators, the gladiators, the executioners, and the repulsor. The repulsor turret is a wart on the silhouette rather than adding to it.
5. Move the weapons to side sponsons.

[MegaVolt87]

Here's how I'd go about converting the Repulsor to meet my aesthetic needs.

 

• Fill in the "handles" on the front 'track' grav-plates.
• Remove the top half of the 'bumper' grav-plates and reinforce the prow to resemble either land raider or rhino.
• Remove the stowage on the back-sides.
• Remove the turret. A key feature of land raiders and rhinos is the brick profile and the turret ruins that. As an aside: compare the turret profile of the predators, the gladiators, the executioners, and the repulsor. The repulsor turret is a wart on the silhouette rather than adding to it.
• Move the weapons to side sponsons.

Point 4 and 5 is no bueno, that completely changes the whole tank profile far too much for a rules perspective, especially for LOS. The other points would be how I would mod it though. Edited August 25, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[jaxom]

Darn modeling for advantage ruining it for the rest of us (joking). I’d just raise the flying stand so the height remained the same. Sponsons don’t really impact line if site too much... wait, the Repulsor has a base. Hmm, has that ever been addressed regarding how it functions for measurement and line of sight?

[War Angel]

The difference between you and me CM 454, is that you think we are the same but on different ends of the spectrum, while I know we are different entirely. You say I’ve targeted your tracked tanks, which, correct me if I’m wrong, was a metaphor for hating it. (That post was a lot of metaphors, which I can appreciate) but the reality is I like both ranges, and still play with my old tracked tanks, going so far as to buy more so I can continue to expand them along side my hover tanks. I applaud GW’s design team for making the new models different from the old, so that they can have two different feels to them, and not feel like the new is replacing the old. The Repulsor could have easily been a tracked tank, with no turret, and immediately invalidated the land raider. Could have even allowed it to transport termies. Many players would then still hate it because it would invalidate the older molders, and there honestly wouldn’t be a lot they could do to make it look different from the old kit anyway.

 

You don’t like the model and that’s on you, but you get real upset when there’s a possibility the models you like going away, while actively voicing that GW should change their direction away from models that other people like. Then turn around and lie about what this thread was about.

[Ishagu]

 

That isn't the point a lot of people are making, it's not a binary choice like that.

 

For example, I don't like repulsors. I do like most Primaris units. I do like Land Raiders. So I want the tracked LR and I want to stick Primaris in it.

This this this.

 

Gimme a Landraider on steroids with a big plow on the front and the turret from the Repulsor. Space Marines don’t need hover tanks regardless of lore changes or advancements. It makes Tau or Eldar less special too and that’s a big part of those armies’ appeal.

After reading books about battles that take place on unstable ground or over water, yes, the Astartes 100% need hover tanks.

[Brother Casman]

Darn modeling for advantage ruining it for the rest of us (joking). I’d just raise the flying stand so the height remained the same. Sponsons don’t really impact line if site too much... wait, the Repulsor has a base. Hmm, has that ever been addressed regarding how it functions for measurement and line of sight?

That's covered in the rules of the Repulsor (and Impulsor) at the moment - their datasheets have an ability called something like "hover tank" where you measure to and from the hull of the vehicles, rather than their bases. I would guess that the future codices will keep a rule along those lines.

[chapter master 454]

War Angel, was it ever a secret what I intended? I mean at the time of this threads creation there was heightened tension of firstborn redundancy which I admit had taken me to a very strung out person, the thought of my land raiders going away was a very very sore thought as it has already been done to one of them (my dear Excelsior that I had gotten from my trip to warhammer world) so there was a strong rejection to the new stuff because it felt not only like they were trying to replace what I liked but also push something I felt strongly that doesn't fit the Imperium. So no secret that I was putting on a full blast assault against grav-tanks, I mean it even caused me a brief period of depression which was sparked by one of your posts actually which highlighted the concept that I was slamming designs you liked and it was getting tiresome for you to always read and know I wasn't far to berate those designs and that made me feel like a fool who hadn't considered his fraters proper. It isn't obvious but you may of noticed I disappeared for a day or 3 from activity following that post.

 

I was torn and pulled in all directions, one to respect that my fellow fraters may indeed enjoy the designs of new and would become strung out over someone constantly stepping up on the soap box to shout how bad they are because of one detail however on the other end I didn't want to stay silent it caused me to act like a child.

 

Then came the announcement. Firstborn to 2 wounds.

 

That changed everything like the fire nation, though not so negatively (less world oppression and more freedom and liberation). This direction shown which had no evidence until the leaks started was the core of my mental push-back. At the time, I was accepting that Primaris were coming, staying and replacing but was extremely adverse to their armour and personally feel like I was getting forced into something I didn't like. I like the new Primaris Infantry (with only a few exceptions...inceptors still look weird to me. Not bad just weird) but detest their tanks and I am a very passionate tread-head of 40k. I don't mind grav tanks in Eldar and Tau (in fact their tanks look pretty good) but then these things started showing up and it seriously went against my grain. However now Firstborn are seemingly being planned to not going anywhere with this change and now a strange flip of moods has happened with some Primaris people getting antsy if they are getting squatted already (which I think is silly but hey, weren't some saying it silly to say Firstborn were getting squatted. We are all fools at some point).

Coming to a point near to when those leaks were about to happen, I had begun to try and reconcile my feelings and see if I could in someway at least make the models more enjoyable for myself (the executioner and in the future the gladiator) as my only gripe was only ever the grav plates so why not put on some big boy pants and see if I can't take the kit and work with it and make it more pleasant for myself, it is a model making hobby after all.

 

However it does appear War Angel we are the same but different. Mainly in that we still love the old designs but I think one of us was more ready to accept the new things than the other. I would appreciate however that you stop thinking I am someone who is subtle, what you may interpret as me trying to hide an agenda is just trying to keep things civil and not outright me on a megaphone and thus keep myself sensible (I know, didn't really work did it) and I never intend to hide my feelings or meaning. I mean, how much more of a loaded thread could I have made at the time of making it and how was it not obvious it was partly me venting some frustration in a more meaningful way than making a thread called "Grav tanks sucks!" with the content being "Fight me". I wanted to open dialogue, and in turn thus help give me a sense of perspective that I at the time wasn't ready to accept which is just poor manners.

 

I ain't a subtle frater. I talk flowery, each post a novel, responses are filled similar verbosity but ultimately...I just want to be honest and hopefully in the long run somewhat respectable frater. Though I have, I suppose, gained a bit of a reputation for my anti-grav shouting.

[jaxom]

Serendipity, I have this in a work presentation today:

 

“[Civil discourse] is imbued with mutual respect. Civil discourse makes no demands for agreement or compromise on all viewpoints. It neither diminishes the other’s moral worth, nor questions their good judgement, it avoids hostility, direct antagonism, or excessive persuasion; it requires humility and an appreciation for the other participant’s experiences” Dr. Kenneth, J. Gergan, social psychologist.

 

Design critique, aesthetics, any of these subjective issues are going to be sore topics if approached from a sense of "right answer, wrong answer." Agreement and disagreement may not work either. They are psychologically weighted terms that may seem innocent, but aren't; rather it's more about sharing or not sharing perspective. An analogy often used is sight: if I am shorter or taller than someone else, it's not quite right to say our perspectives on what we see disagree, but that they are different or not shared.

 

I can only offer my own opinions and thoughts. I can't speak for anyone else, but my engagement with the hobby is not going to be the same as someone else's. It's tied into to so many other aspects of who I am and my life experience. I can say that I'd want to make sure that there'd always be a way to enjoy playing the game with the minis I've worked on. I'd hope others would feel the same.

[Mandragola]

I feel pretty much the complete opposite way about this subject. Starting with the storm raven, I think marines have started to get vehicles that are actually suitable for an elite force of super soldiers to use.

 

The rhino was never that. Unarmed, virtually unarmoured, slow and yet highly visible. It would be tactically and strategically useless. Marines would be better off on foot.

 

The land raider at least has a purpose. It can bring troops through fire and allow them to storm objectives. That’s quite a narrow role but it’s able to perform it.

 

Storm ravens are interesting. They can put throops anywhere very quickly and provide close air support. They’d be a valuable unit to a real military. It’s worth noting that according to the fluff pretty much all imperial flyers Like this use skimmer tech when they take off and land.

 

So now we have the repulsor, which is an awesome squad transport. This is a thing that looks like it’s been designed the way real stuff actually gets designed. What are the requirements of a space marine squad? They want to go places in safety and have fire support to tackle all kinds of enemies. That’s how you end up with the repulsor. The impulsor is a smaller, faster transport to insert small units like reivers.

 

The question over tech is odd. The problem has always been that you’ve had wildly divergent tech levels in an army. It never made sense to me to have genetically engineered super soldiers in power armour going around in either a spaceship the size of a city that can travel through a different universe... or a 1960s APC.

[War Angel]

I have not claimed you to be subtle, when I call you a liar I am referring to your comment “the purpose of this thread is to discuss”.

[Captain Idaho]

=][= Okay this topic has descended beyond good taste or constructive discourse so I think we've gotten the most out of it we can =][=

Edited August 25, 2020 by Captain Idaho