Hardcore Abaddon - Black Legion (9th)

[Irate Khornate]

Right now I could see a Bringers of Despair list going particularly hard for Black Legion. I have a feeling with the 9th edition codex we will finally be able to play fluffy yet effective lists again. Hopefully longer than 6 months this time.

[Relic]

I think specialist detachments have gone away for a lot of groups now that they are no longer allowed in tournament play.

 

Terminators are solid though for CSM. Versatile toolbox unit. New models look great as well!

 

Regarding secondaries, still a work in progress for me. So far in most games I have taken bring it down as people are taking tanks out to play.

 

Engage on all fronts as you tend to get that by playing the objectives anyways.

 

Last one is always a toss up... attrition currently works for my list as I have a couple of big heavy hitter units but clearly like bring it down it is matchup dependent.

 

The action types I have not really tried. I don't particularly want my expensive sorcerer doing actions and my infantry outside of terminators feel too flimsy to be throwing up banners or the like! Something I have not tried enough to really comment on though.

[Prot]

Yes that's true. We stopped playing specialist detachments because of tournament rules. 

 

I still suspect some of those abilities traits, and strats will make it into codexes.

[Prot]

If you anything about Prot's local scene, it's very competitive, and if any group can find a way to make a weaker faction compete it seems like his is the sort to pull it off.

 

Those relic missiles that do 3 +D3 damage and all the indirect fire and deep strike is just nasty. It's usually on one of the riptides, and Stormsurges are actually decent now. Taunar feels flat up broken at the moment.

 

It's true they don't play the primary well, but to set up a table legally, markers really shouldn't be in terrain (tournament set up). 

 

So it's extremely hard for you to score primary as well.  I did not pair against Tau last week, but a very good local Astra player did. He was nearly tabled in T1 (tau went first)... well tabled in the sense that his return fire was just way too diminished for him to have any true chance in the game. It was over top of T2.

 

I try very hard to make sure Tables are set up with lots of terrain. Lots of Obscuring. I don't want to make this a Tau discussion persay, but Astra are darn tough for me as well. Those command tanks with 2+ saves, and the way they can dominate the table with Sentinel movement.. it's a hard nut to crack.

 

These types of opponents have lead me to change my original opinion that this would be an assaulty flavour of 40K in 9th ed. It's more a mid table shooty to me. So I try to design my Black Legion as such.

 

(I do play Admech too, and had to put it away for a while. Just the shooting is horrendous for many opponents to overcome. I prefer playing the underdog!)

[Relic]

Tau'nar was FAQ'ed up in points significantly this week. Yeah we play objectives not in terrain as well as per the book. Some horrendous shooting armies in the game at the moment, I just don't think T'au are the top fish anymore in that regard. I might go as far as to say CSM codex is better adapted to 9th as the army has a good mixture of mid range firepower, close combat specialist units and a transport that is no frills.

[Snazzy]

Black Legion should (from a design/background stand point) imho should never have to soup. They are the ones with the resources, significant leadership and structure (if you can call it that - but driving fear into the hearts of your middle management seems to work!)

 

While i agree with you, GW seems to think that Black Legion are the glue holding the cause together.  Our rules encourage soup.  Legacy of Horus, Chosen Enforcers, Abaddon likely being the Supreme Commander for all of CSM. 

 

 

 

Secondly for... secondaries (no pun intended) I have skipped Action types entirely. When I first started playing 9th I tried them. Warpcraft in particular. I'm not sure if I just don't understand it, but I can't see a Psyker sitting on an objective (or mid table!) and just doing nothing but casting a 'fictional' power at approximately WC4 and sitting there twiddling his thumbs. Same goes for 'raising a banner' or whatever... my units are usually too important, and trying for board control.

 

 

While i agree for us Warpcraft is not good, i could see some factions put them together along with other secondaries.  There are strange candidates for these actions, like Pink Horrors, Rubric Sorcerers and Rogue Psykers if you dip into BSF.  

[Prot]

Tau'nar was FAQ'ed up in points significantly this week. Yeah we play objectives not in terrain as well as per the book. Some horrendous shooting armies in the game at the moment, I just don't think T'au are the top fish anymore in that regard. I might go as far as to say CSM codex is better adapted to 9th as the army has a good mixture of mid range firepower, close combat specialist units and a transport that is no frills.

 

I guess we'll have to simply agree to disagree. I don't know about 'top fish' but I just played them with my Ultramarines and was nearly tabled again by T2. My Black Legion just flat out don't have a chance right now against Tau.... I mean facing 60 shots at AP-2/no cover/reroll 1's/ (5 maker lights) from 1 squad of Crisis Suits pretty much is an auto delete unit. Move and shoot Broadsides became notably better, and the relic Riptide gun (3 damage plus D3 per hit) is another auto delete unit that's hard to ignore, but with drone coverage and a 3++ , you pretty much need to.

 

If my Ultra's can't touch them, I don't think my Black Legion can do better. (I experimented with White Scars... that's the only thing that made Tau players cringe.) 

(in my defense I had been turning down my Ultra's to make for closer games against other opponents.... but we don't know who faces who until we roll off.)

 

I did come close one game with Possessed. But once I lost my characters, I just couldn't quite close the deal. (I think I may have even won that game if I'm being honest, but man it's rare.)

 

 

 

 

 

Secondly for... secondaries (no pun intended) I have skipped Action types entirely. When I first started playing 9th I tried them. Warpcraft in particular. I'm not sure if I just don't understand it, but I can't see a Psyker sitting on an objective (or mid table!) and just doing nothing but casting a 'fictional' power at approximately WC4 and sitting there twiddling his thumbs. Same goes for 'raising a banner' or whatever... my units are usually too important, and trying for board control.

 

 

While i agree for us Warpcraft is not good, i could see some factions put them together along with other secondaries.  There are strange candidates for these actions, like Pink Horrors, Rubric Sorcerers and Rogue Psykers if you dip into BSF.  

 

 

For sure those are some good choices... I'm just talking in relation to this thread. I'm even seeing some armies do Raise Banners fairly well and wonder if it's a way to make Cultists more attractive, but now with 2 wound marines.... could be huge.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Prot

[Snazzy]

Yeah, Raise the Banners High and Domination seem to go well together.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I really hope GW tones down (nerf exterminatus) Riptides and drones.  They are really unfun to play against since you cant interact with them.  They feel like they belong in 7th edition.  Getting rid of the 3++ invuln would be a start since no weapons are anywhere near efficient enough at removing them.   

[Prot]

Yeah, Raise the Banners High and Domination seem to go well together.

 

I had never tried Raise Banners. I thought Chaos (Black Legion?) might actually do it better than loyalists because we do have these marginally expendable troops, and since it was a 6 Objective tournament mission, my thinking was holding less than 3 Objectives in my zone would insta loose the game for me on primary, so if that's the case then why not try for Raise Banners? The idea being once they're raised, it's hard for Tau to come turn them off. 

 

 

 

I really hope GW tones down (nerf exterminatus) Riptides and drones.  They are really unfun to play against since you cant interact with them.  They feel like they belong in 7th edition.  Getting rid of the 3++ invuln would be a start since no weapons are anywhere near efficient enough at removing them.   

 

Yea, I don't know if I'm playing Tau next with Black Legion, but I honestly don't know how to interact with it properly. I won't get into White Scars, but that worked because Advance+Charge + no Overwatch. 

 

With Black Legion that's really hard to pull off... This is one of the reasons I've been singing praises of the Baledrake. One game I did manage a single turn tie up of a Riptide. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

Yeah, Raise the Banners High and Domination seem to go well together.

 

I had never tried Raise Banners. I thought Chaos (Black Legion?) might actually do it better than loyalists because we do have these marginally expendable troops, and since it was a 6 Objective tournament mission, my thinking was holding less than 3 Objectives in my zone would insta loose the game for me on primary, so if that's the case then why not try for Raise Banners? The idea being once they're raised, it's hard for Tau to come turn them off. 

 

 

 

I really hope GW tones down (nerf exterminatus) Riptides and drones.  They are really unfun to play against since you cant interact with them.  They feel like they belong in 7th edition.  Getting rid of the 3++ invuln would be a start since no weapons are anywhere near efficient enough at removing them.   

 

Yea, I don't know if I'm playing Tau next with Black Legion, but I honestly don't know how to interact with it properly. I won't get into White Scars, but that worked because Advance+Charge + no Overwatch. 

 

With Black Legion that's really hard to pull off... This is one of the reasons I've been singing praises of the Baledrake. One game I did manage a single turn tie up of a Riptide. 

 

 

It seems like the people that designed Tau purposely want it to be an army no one likes to face but not in a competitive sense in a "feelbadsies" way.  As it is currently designed it should be north of 400 points or be limited to 1 per army.  What other unit in the game has similiar firepower/mobility and layered defense and you can take more than 1 of?   Rob G. is more expensive but has no ranged ability of his own and less durable.  Magnus and Morty are less durable but have similiar damage output.  None of these can be taken in 3s though.  Knights have similiar durability vs shooting but cost way more.  What am I missing here?  

[MegaVolt87]

It seems like the people that designed Tau purposely want it to be an army no one likes to face but not in a competitive sense in a "feelbadsies" way. As it is currently designed it should be north of 400 points or be limited to 1 per army. What other unit in the game has similiar firepower/mobility and layered defense and you can take more than 1 of? Rob G. is more expensive but has no ranged ability of his own and less durable. Magnus and Morty are less durable but have similiar damage output. None of these can be taken in 3s though. Knights have similiar durability vs shooting but cost way more. What am I missing here?

 

The design for Tau went sour basicly. I was there when it first released in 3rd ed and have been on the recieving end of it over the years more than any other xenos faction. What was once a balanced combined mixed force with a mech skew + manouver ability degenerated into a static gun line camp fest as more, bigger suit types came into being. While people hated the old Tau move shoot hide rules, the game had much more interactive counter plays and manouverability. Bikers, speeders, jump assault marines, deep strikers/ termi's, rhino rush those were the days if you wanted to counter Tau/ Eldar effectively. Tau shifting to a hard gunline + Gundam castle force from what it once was is dissapointing to see and unhealthy for 40k in general from a design perspective.

 

Against Tau with BL, mabye make an agressive play and destroy comfy objectives they could hold with that strat (despoilers?), make them fight in the gutter with you, don't leave them with easy objectives they need/leverage the terrain advantage to hold.

 

Edit- or go medieval , destroy your easy to hold objective and just focous on the neutrals, what the Tau holds, burning the boats on the shore basicly.

Edited August 18, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Relic]

Oh I have faced the three riptides and a bunch of broadsides mathematical kick your teeth list in and had my rear end handed to me. We have a good few tournament players knocking about. I don't think I have win against Eldar in a few years, but then I guess the one I do play against gets top 50 LVO so there is that..

 

I don't like the current T'au design but I think that codex is in a rough spot where a sizeable amount of the units in the codex is not good. The changes in 9th were not kind either as fly was a big thing. Of course riptides, drones, farsight crisis bombs, broadsides and commanders all have some play in them still!

 

Anyways back to CSM, what does your list currently look like or you changing it up regularly in this sandbox phase of the edition?

[MegaVolt87]

Oh I have faced the three riptides and a bunch of broadsides mathematical kick your teeth list in and had my rear end handed to me. We have a good few tournament players knocking about. I don't think I have win against Eldar in a few years, but then I guess the one I do play against gets top 50 LVO so there is that..

I don't like the current T'au design but I think that codex is in a rough spot where a sizeable amount of the units in the codex is not good. The changes in 9th were not kind either as fly was a big thing. Of course riptides, drones, farsight crisis bombs, broadsides and commanders all have some play in them still!

Anyways back to CSM, what does your list currently look like or you changing it up regularly in this sandbox phase of the edition?

I haven't played BL for years, but when I did I had great sucess with infantry heavy mech lists with terminators, fighting mid range + melee, dash of ranged via havocs, oblits, preads, defiler. I think that kind of comp will work once again as we have seemingly come full circle. In general, CSM players will need to learn to be agressive again, not passive/ reactive. SM are just the premier reactive counter puncher faction, CSM haven't been able to do that properly for a long time.

[Prot]

Anyways back to CSM, what does your list currently look like or you changing it up regularly in this sandbox phase of the edition?

 

 

So it turns out I have a game tonight. I have no idea what I'm playing against, and the range of armies is pretty vast, so think anything from GSC-Tau-Astra-Orks... mostly Xenos.

 

I am a bit unsure of certain choices because I'm torn between ideas, and a desire to try something new.

 

Here's what I have so far:

 

- Abaddon

- Sorc with Jump Pack - Delightful Agonies + Warptime

- Termie Sorc - Combibolter (usually becomes Angel's bane) - Miasma of Pestilence (new for me since dropping Dark Apostle) + Prescience

 

- 10 Cultists

- 5 Bolter marines inc. 1 Missile Launcher

- 5 CC marines inc. 1 Plasma gun.

 

- 5 Zerkers, Chainaxe + Chainsword

- 7 Terminators: MoN (-1 Miasma here) 4 x Combi Plasma  (wish I could fit more, and would love to try some melta since it came down in points?)

 

- 3 Bikers.  Chainswords Champ has Chainaxe. (This admittedly is a throw away unit/harrassment.)

 

- 5 Havocs. 4 Reaper Chaincannons. (I'm just so used to running this squad.)

- 2 Oblits (MoS)

- 3 Oblits (MoS)

 

- Baledrake (first turn harassment unit.)

- Rhino (Havocs and Zerkers start in it, Havocs get out, zerkers take over the steering wheel.)

 

 

Notes:

- Abe, Termie Sorc, and 7 Termies come in out of DS. (I've been running these units this way forever. I can't think of anything better though. If anything I just added more Combi plasma since only natural 1's cause overcharge explosions.)

 

- I haven't run 5 Oblits in a long time. I usually only run 3, and have some fun with Helbrutes/etc. (They will be in DS again.)

 

- I usually run smaller squads of Possessed in  9th but they require a lot of babysitting, and resources. Greater Possessed do work great with them, however it becomes your list theme at that point, and I thought just a pinch of Zerkers would be fun to bring out again and focus the rest of the list on board control and shooting.

 

- This is one of the first times in a while that 1) I am not running a Dark Apostle. I flip flop. In 9th he's been too expensive, and I flip between the 5++ Aura for Cultists in my zone, OR the -1 to hit, which I'm thinking Miasma would replace while still giving me a Smite option? (I will still take Council of Traitors for the CP recycle as Abe is the warlord.)

 

- Bikers: I admit I've got this old squad from my Daemonkin army (Yea... that Daemonkin!) and aside from being quick, I have a feeling this is a bad unit in this army.

 

- I wish I had more vehicles. But I don't have much Forgeworld and the rest seems too mediocre against the likes of Tau/Astra/etc. Though I still like Contemptor's and Helbrutes this edition.

 

 

Any thoughts? Good or bad? 

 

Secondaries: I never take Raise the banners, but I tried it with my Ultra's and the Ultra troops are too expensive to 'waste' time like this. But I started thinking... Cultists (preventing Deep Strike) sitting on Objectives with the Dark Apostle giving them a 5++ invuln? Perhaps? (This would cause me to remove the CSM troops to get more bodies).

 

I normally always take: Engage on all fronts (quarters), Bring it Down (if applicable), Thin their ranks (Divide kills by 10 = Victory Points), or Assassinate if they have aggressive characters.

 

It's still about the primary though.

 

EDIT: Alternate List:

 

- Thinking about the above, it made me make some changes to shift the balance a bit to include more Armour, and a Dark Apostle:

 

HQ:

(Dark Disciples)

Dark Apostle (no idea on prayer yet?)

Abaddon

Termie Sorc (Delightful Agonies)

 

TROOPS:

2 x 10 Cultists

5 CSM Missile Launcher

 

ELITE:

Helbrute: MM

Helbrute: PlasmaCannon

Berzerkers (same as above list)

Terminators (Same as above list)

 

HEAVY:

- Defiler (Scourge)

- Havocs (3 Chaincannons + 1 Autocannon - to make list fit in 2K)

- Oblits x3 (lost the 2 man Oblit squad)

 

FLYER:

-Baledrake (as above)

 

TRANSPORT:

- Rhino + havoc launcher (as above)

 

List 1 or 2?

Edited August 18, 2020 by Prot

[Relic]

Probably list two but I might suggest both seem to lack a bit of focus. It kinda strikes me as a random hodge pot of units. I find it useful to have something like:

 

Big hitter unit(s) : Like an obliterator unit or full unit of combi weapon terminators. They get the buffs and go ham.

 

Screen clearer: enables the big hitter(s) to be where they need to be without getting screened out. A large unit of bikes, chain havocs or combi bolter terminator unit can do this.

 

Screen/objective takers: Min units of cultists, marines, bare bones and/or rhino's. MSU bikes and/or terminators (chainaxe+bolters). MSU berzerkers.

 

Support: Characters.

 

I guess your list does have these components but a few choices look a bit random like hellbrutes, a random missile launcher and the like. I don't really see the fit of a DA in these lists. I ain't paying myself to protect some sacrificial cultists unless you go down the route of big units of them which is another kind of list.

[Prot]

Probably list two but I might suggest both seem to lack a bit of focus. It kinda strikes me as a random hodge pot of units. I find it useful to have something like:

 

Big hitter unit(s) : Like an obliterator unit or full unit of combi weapon terminators. They get the buffs and go ham. Oblits x3, Termies x 7

 

Screen clearer: enables the big hitter(s) to be where they need to be without getting screened out. A large unit of bikes, chain havocs or combi bolter terminator unit can do this. Havoc Chaincannon squad

 

Screen/objective takers: Min units of cultists, marines, bare bones and/or rhino's. MSU bikes and/or terminators (chainaxe+bolters). MSU berzerkers. 

 

Support: Characters.

 

I guess your list does have these components but a few choices look a bit random like hellbrutes, a random missile launcher and the like. I don't really see the fit of a DA in these lists. I ain't paying myself to protect some sacrificial cultists unless you go down the route of big units of them which is another kind of list.

 

I'm finding Helbrutes are excellent character protection. Cheap too, and go with an aggressive theme. With a 5+ invuln, the chance is there to really draw some fire away from the Drake/Rhino/Defiler.  All of which will start with that 5+ invuln. (much better than just cultsists) Not going first is a huge blow vs a lot of shooty armies. The hope is this lessens that blow.

 

DA is a bit lackluster period to me. He's just a fun unit I suppose. Another use for Council of Traitors so the Sorc can take the retreat from close combat ability for the Termies/Abaddon.

 

Perhaps it appears to be lacking in focus. I know by habit I prefer very flexible lists, and lists with one or two repetitive squads is typically not my thing. That being said in 9th I'm finding a very strong need for a mixed list. I don't think it works with pure shooty, or assault. Pure aggression, or just sitting back. Normally in 9th I'm finding it's best with my Black Legion to have the ability to sit back on 2-3 objectives, and send the rest forward if possible.

 

It's not perfect, for sure. Just looking for feedback.  Some of the random elements may just be my delusion of making some 'fun' units work. For example the Heldrake seems such an oddball, but it went from 'testing it out in 9th' to really annoying against some builds that can otherwise be super difficult... I can't tell you how nice it is when you get off that turn 1 charge on a Riptide, or a LemanRuss command tank (for example). 

 

I find it very hard to protect characters. The thing about Helbrutes I'm finding is no one really like shooting at them when a Heldrake, defiler combo is coming up the table on them. 

 

Again, no idea if this will work in this particular set up, but there is method to it. Alternate ideas are always welcome!

Edited August 18, 2020 by Prot

[Relic]

I should clarify I am not intentionally critical, I wrote that whilst working so was keeping it short. That explanation on the list is very interesting and provides a lot of insight! I find these discussions good for that purpose as it challenges my own thoughts.

 

I tend to be the type who picks a hard theme/typecast units and build a certain way flowing from that..so prone to black and white thinking like a good heretic!

 

Your point on the hellbrutes and character protection is a good one that I did not think of. I use the humble rhino for the same role in a lot of games and find them so useful for even more then just transporting models around.

 

I think the DA has a place if running him for a very specific purpose like the 5++ aura and LD for mass cultists or vehicles. I note you say units getting picked off turn one, do you not find your able to hide some key units behind terrain when going 2nd?

 

For an experimental list I am considering doing something silly like 6x10 Cultists in rhino's with havoc launchers, 3x3 biker squads, 2x3 oblit squads, a Lord,sorcerer and DA+disciples (for the 5++ aura).

Basically silly MSU to play the missions whilst two oblits units do the heavy lifting.

 

Funny thing is I tell everyone the CSM troops are bad and they are I think but the idea (which is likely flawed..) is that our transports with a 5++ and havoc launcher are..good. You blow them up and Cultists jump out and have to be killed.

 

I think now is the time to play around in general with lists and even try the oddball units/lists as you might discover something. Nothing written in stone what is good/bad right now imo.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Relic

[Prot]

Yea, well we will see if this works or not, but as you say (and really it's the point of the thread) I am trying to experiment. The trick is pushing that theory but still retaining a functional list of units you trust. 

 

I think units getting 'picked off' is more just something that happens by T2-T3 if I'm not super careful. We'll see if doubling up on my Helbrute experiment is worth it. :)

[MegaVolt87]

I think the first list has potential. I'll put up a revision for you later Prot, its a nice exercise to build a list without FW stuff for me.

 

EDIT- I'm assuming you are running 2k, not 1950 points as that is what I got from my excel using the 9th ed CA with the inital drake list ?

Edited August 19, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Brom MKIV]

My lists tend to look unfocused too. To me that's the sign of a "toolbox".list. or maybe control if we compare to mtg.

 

Anyway I don't rate DA.. Too many things working against them. On the first it's too late now I'm sure but I'd drop the troops special wespons and Max those terminators plas.

Oh and lastly your comment on angels bane makes me think you might be one of those players like me that plans ahead for flex relics and flex traits but that's dead in 9th (my buddies love this I don't).

 

Good luck!

[BrainFireBob]

Tossing this everywhere, but I'm getting one for my IW, and thinking about BL now. Terrax Drill?

 

Has three advantages. Gets you in the opponent's deployment zone at full strength, gives a unit DS that didn't have it before, and is capacity 12- which gets you a Dark Apostle or Exalted Champ a ride

[MegaVolt87]

Tossing this everywhere, but I'm getting one for my IW, and thinking about BL now. Terrax Drill?

Has three advantages. Gets you in the opponent's deployment zone at full strength, gives a unit DS that didn't have it before, and is capacity 12- which gets you a Dark Apostle or Exalted Champ a ride

I wouldn't be buying any FW unless you are using it for HH as well. No eta or indication on the status of FW units for 9th ed from GW at this stage. Safer to stick with the dex units IMO for now if you want new stuff.

[Canadian_F_H]

 

Tossing this everywhere, but I'm getting one for my IW, and thinking about BL now. Terrax Drill?

Has three advantages. Gets you in the opponent's deployment zone at full strength, gives a unit DS that didn't have it before, and is capacity 12- which gets you a Dark Apostle or Exalted Champ a ride

I wouldn't be buying any FW unless you are using it for HH as well. No eta or indication on the status of FW units for 9th ed from GW at this stage. Safer to stick with the dex units IMO for now if you want new stuff.

Which is a shame because the forgeworld units were the only things we saw locally that seamed to be able to give chaos a chance against primaris heavy armies in late 8th. Edited August 19, 2020 by Canadian_F_H

[MegaVolt87]

While it undoubtedly propped us up for 8th, we have no real idea how FW will end up in 9th ed. Bit too much of a risk for just 40k if you aren't into HH as well IMO.