This is My (Yours/Ours) Hobby

[Schlitzaf]

So what Chapter mentioned earlier in Legend thread prompted this thread. About legending of marine armies and loss of value. I was initially gonna write a post about that but decided expanded initial scope. Now for some brief context for everything:

 

I like many members of our hobby struggled with depression and more than once almost took my life. Growing up back in Middle to High School. Even once contemplated it back in College (only 3-4 years ago).

 

But one of the things I did growing up was start engaging with the hobby. And it helped get me threw worst of those moments because more than anything else it let me find friends and kindred spirits whom I could hangout with every Friday and Saturday.

 

And often times that would help me get through things. One time back in High School, my junior year, around Christmas time. One of my friends got me a metal Emperor’s Champion. And painted it beautifully. Which is one reason I hope regardless of things being legended or otherwise never be made illegal.

 

The Hobby, its not our mini’s. It not just our paint, its our hobby. Our safe haven from outside, our kindred spirits, our place to find friends and more. Its our home. And for some people firstborn going to Legends is like being forced out of there homes onto the street.

 

It makes that model your best friend, gave you before kicked a bucket, or the manager of your favorite lgs somehow less “valueable”. Because its no longer current in the range. And I think that why people are afraid, justified or not. Is that there collection might be rendered unplayable and there time in the hobby voided.

 

To which I have no good response, just the hobby is what you make it. And given leaks we are gonna be keeping the current marine range and nothing getting legended in the forseeable future. But if it is just enjoy it, and keep making your what makes your hobby worthwhile.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t know what anyone can really do to halt this process. Prolly will continue at an increasing rate over time. There are several OG Marine models I love but will just find something else to replace them when they go to Legends the reverse Rubicon. There are some units I’m glad to see go there though like the infamous Chaplain dread.

 

Legends is better than no alternative though. I don’t play tournaments for awhile now so it’s alright for me. As long as geedub can produce a good Primaris alternative I have no qualms really. It’s not just SM that are affected either. When dark eldar were first introduced some characters could ride jet bikes... so when I see the Primaris Chaplain biker that really makes me happy.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[MegaVolt87]

I just want to say about the hobby since I came back a few things. I am dissapointed with the other older players who are circling the wagons and just endlessly bashing primaris, gatekeeping SM. I'm not much of a fan myself honestly, though its clear its the future of the space marine range for modern 40k at the moment. We should shift the conversation towards how to adapt to what we dislike and how to fix it. I don't like the stripper boots, so I use greenstuff to fix them etc. Lately people have been putting up more conversion pics, how they are fixing things etc, would like to see more of that, problem > solution.

 

Idealy legends will be a tempory thing so GW can go back in time and do more specialist/ historical stuff. eg Badab War, shifting stuff out of there again over time with new sculpts, rules/ use etc.

[mughi3]

Better idea, play what you like with like minded player groups.

 

I still use index 8th with halved ranges to play epic scale ( a far cheaper way to play 40K)  our FLGS has a dedicated group of 5th edition players. it is in our opinion, while not prefect, still the best edition of the game GW ever produced as far as core rules go. we "house rule" in some rules form other editions to make 5th even better. things like snap fire, overwatch, grenade throwing from 6th/7th or the assaulting vehicle rules from 4th. 

 

As we are casual players who will never enter the tourney scene we play among friends who enjoy the social activity of playing the game. as such the fun of playing is paramount, winning or loosing is just the icing on the cake so to speak. 

 

The great thing about playing this way (we allow any codex from 3rd-7th as they are all compatible with 5th), GW will never screw us over again. no FAQs, points changes, models being invalidated/legend, no new books to have to buy to keep our forces viable, etc...

 

It is our hobby, we make of it what we want. what GW is doing with 9th is not what i want, so i will not follow. however  i do admit primaris minis would make fine stand ins for MKIV maximus armor for a 30K army. 

 

just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I just want to say about the hobby since I came back a few things. I am dissapointed with the other older players who are circling the wagons and just endlessly bashing primaris, gatekeeping SM. I'm not much of a fan myself honestly, though its clear its the future of the space marine range for modern 40k at the moment. We should shift the conversation towards how to adapt to what we dislike and how to fix it. I don't like the stripper boots, so I use greenstuff to fix them etc. Lately people have been putting up more conversion pics, how they are fixing things etc, would like to see more of that, problem > solution.

Idealy legends will be a tempory thing so GW can go back in time and do more specialist/ historical stuff. eg Badab War, shifting stuff out of there again over time with new sculpts, rules/ use etc.

.

Megavolt YESSSSH

 

I’m in my 60s now and love me aome Primaris.

 

Also I want to say in general it make me feel extremely uncomfortable when an OP discusses suicidal thoughts and or tendencies here.

[armarnis]

Well he did not "discuss" them and i feel its wrong to feel uncomfortable about it. Where if not here likeminded people from all around the world can feel like brothers and sisters, while not in blood, but in unity of purpose and love for our little plastic toys?

 

We should be proud this is a place he feels comfortable enough to speak of his darkest hours instead!

 

 

More on topic i strongly agree with Schlitzaf, it feels like a kick to the manly parts they "killed" my chaplain on bike, my first hq to my army back when i was a young boy just to see it brought back as a primaris version i shall buy again.

 

One of the best parts for me was always the knowing no matter how long i am out my models would still be working. Models i kept around despite being "out" for 15 years.

 

Legends is just a cheap and simple solution for an selfmade problem to me. Instead of killing options they should better make sure to make that chaplain on bike not the only character on a mount in the future!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I do feel uncomfortable about it though... why can’t we just discuss the hobby without going places there ?

[Lucerne]

I just want to say about the hobby since I came back a few things. I am dissapointed with the other older players who are circling the wagons and just endlessly bashing primaris, gatekeeping SM. I'm not much of a fan myself honestly, though its clear its the future of the space marine range for modern 40k at the moment. We should shift the conversation towards how to adapt to what we dislike and how to fix it. I don't like the stripper boots, so I use greenstuff to fix them etc. Lately people have been putting up more conversion pics, how they are fixing things etc, would like to see more of that, problem > solution.

 

Idealy legends will be a tempory thing so GW can go back in time and do more specialist/ historical stuff. eg Badab War, shifting stuff out of there again over time with new sculpts, rules/ use etc.

So tell me, when will those older fans get model support or rules support for their ranges?  That's literally at the heart of the problem: people aren't stupid and can see when they've been thrown under the bus in the name of short term profits.

 

Because that's all it boils down to: the fans and the iconic designs get shafted in the name of ravenous capitalism because in the short term Primaris sells.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can purchase a lot of stuff from third parties like Pop Goes The Monkey .

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There should be direct support for something so serious an issue. It goes beyond this topic though.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Firedrake Cordova]

To which I have no good response, just the hobby is what you make it ... But if it is just enjoy it, and keep making your what makes your hobby worthwhile.

Well, that there is very much the crux of the matter.  From a technical perspective, the new Primaris models are excellent models, but I just don't like the aesthetic of them - that's mostly down to person preference and probably a bit of nostalgia, and I'm happy others are getting models they like (even if Mk VI Corvus armour is the one true power armour mark ).  

 

For me personally, the hobby is about the universe, the models, and painting.  I don't actually play 40K any more - I much prefer small-scale skirmish-type games, and think 40K suffers from trying to be a mass-battle game (or to put it another way, I prefer the 2nd edition game size and ruleset).  Maybe that makes me atypical in the community - who knows.

 

So, what am I trying to say?  The hobby has numerous facets - just do what you like, and be happy with it - it's just not worth worrying, and there are more productive uses of people's time (like painting Space Marines... ).  If people are worried about the "traditional Marines" not being usable in the future, maybe it doesn't matter so much if you've got a shelf full of lovingly-painted models to look at, and the enjoyment that came from it? (OK, that could also make it worse, but hopefully it's obvious where I'm going here)

 

Applies to not only models but faction support too. Black Templars and Crimson Slaughter come to mind as one minute having a dedicated codex, to next minute being relegated to a few odd rules in their “parent” book. Say what you want about similarities in factions or wanting to reduce bloat, it freakin hurts if it’s somebodies main army and you can count on one hand how many it’s happened to.

GW tends to be pretty cyclical.  The Salamanders had their own mini-codex in 3rd edition, then got folded into the main codex, and got their own one in 8th again.  I still can't use my dual flamer Tactical Squads from 3rd edition, though - doh

[Valkia the Bloody]

Well, I have been in the hobby on and off now for more than 20 years.

I still have a metal Dogs of War mercenary army for Warhammer Fantasy, because back in the day, I loved the models most (there were some absolutely beautiful and bonkers and absurd units!), but even back then they never had a decent codex anymore and existed purely as a side-note in White Dwarf.

However, I still LOVED this army.

I hardly ever won any games with it, but I do not play games to win. I play games to have a great time, to give other people a great time and to be a good opponent in being fair and helping to get an exciting story going during a game.

I practically sold all of my other armies over the years, but that metal Dogs of War army still sits in a box somewhere in my parent's attic.

 

I admit I also had some issues with depression on and off, and painting and working on my armies also helped me along. It is just something very therapeutic, it makes you focus and be creative and gives you a sense of accomplishment.

 

Nobody can take this away from me.

Even if some stupid rules change.

If you play with good people in the right mindset, using your models will never be an issue, no matter how old they are.

 

As for all this phasing out of models and moving to legends and so on.

 

My suspicion of what is going to happen is-

yes, the older models will be phased out.

But when they do, what stops you just using them as "counts as X"?

I will certainly do that.

I have a small loyalist marine force, because I really loved the models in the Burning of Prospero box. The rules for the mark III battlesuit have by now also disappeared from the codex as far as I can see. So, well, now I might use them as normal tactical marines. I am still proud of my painting, I have given all of them names and a backstory, I am most certainly not throwing them out.

 

Because, to be totally plain and honest- I actually prefer the Mark III models over the Primaris.

All the plain and boring Primaris in the Indomitus box I have converted to my Chaos army, I only kept the knightly Crusaders for the loyalists.

I am also NOT a fan of the Primaris, neither of the design nor of the lore.

 

But I understand that the Space Marines needed an upgrade for their design.

Which is also fine, different people like different things. It would be so boring otherwise.

 

So I personally do not really have an issue... as long nobody does make it their issue with me using my old models (and even then I would have some choice words to say to that person, because I also have learned to stand up for myself over the years).

[clanfield]

i started back in the day (rt 87) i poured my meagre cash flow into a home brew i still have "green venom"  and a year or so latter when my skills worked out i started dark angels and space wolves just to frame my point .

 

 

over the years iv seen this affect over our hobby a lot in the past i got angry or sad we loose models or even factions we love deeply

 

some examples for me:

rt marines being very small now

 

dark angels going green (didn't return until 3rd edition )

space wolves grey>blue>baby blue> grey

ultra marine trims >metallic

bigger bases in 6th?

 

there's a lot more but context is 33 years (wow im old) 

 

i agree primaus marines are the new blue(ultramarine )

 my wolves have travelled with me through life grown shrunk been melted in a house fire rebuilt ,sold to pay the rent etc

 

and here's the thing i love 40k now she isn't the same girl i fooled around with when i was 17 but that's also glorious to look back on

 

change is constant but we sometimes lack perspective what matters is we are here and the fun and friends we share the game with

 

p.s.  new primarus wolves are under construction and that will be followed by some dangels maybe not the company's i built in the past 

but a force to serve the god emperor all the same

 

thanks for listening to me ramble

 

 

clanfied 

Edited August 8, 2020 by clanfield

[chapter master 454]

Better idea, play what you like with like minded player groups.

 

This is not an answer. This hobby isn't something you can't pick-up sticks and find others in close proximity easily. How do I play with other like-minded players when they are the ones who don't want to use legends? What happens when they aren't so "like minded".

 

This isn't about saying "primaris begone" and more about "what about us" in an ironic twist, Marine players are actually in dispute about their support. Think about that, the most supported faction who has really no right to complain about getting support feels like the support it is being given isn't fair or right. We didn't really ask for Primaris, no-one did actually. We just wanted our stat-line moved to what Primaris got, we wanted our weapons moved to what what Primaris got. What we got instead were models who brought a very un-settling message: move over. This isn't like when Dark Eldar got their new range, it didn't invalidate older models. This isn't like when Sisters of Battle got their new range, it didn't invalidate older models. This isn't like when marines got their new kits back when, it didn't invalidate older models.

 

I don't agree with making models invalid and that is what Legend does. It invalidates them. They cease to be for the vast majority of players. I would articulate more but I have work to attend to. I will be watching from the shadows to watch this thread but I will return later on to expand my feelings on this matter. Ultimately, as much as you can say legends doesn't invalidate models it equally does by just having "not recommended for tournament play" which indicates GW doesn't want these models in the spot-light. They want them invalid.

[Doghouse]

You can still use them though, they're in the new codex which means probably still here for another 1-3 years and usable in any setting.

 

This is my sixth refresh of the Astartes model range and I have absolutely no doubt there will be more in years to come. The main difference this time was that it was the need to protect their IP they had to make the range more distinct and 70s generic sci fi tropes were not safe enough.

 

The thing is we all can see this coming so we are forewarned, but it won't be tomorrow as we've got atleast one more codex in it so they won't get squatted or Thunder Warriored over night.

 

If you are a tourny player then you'll be used to having to change to adapt to the new meta with armies and if you are casual then chances are you're going to find someone who will play against your marines whether Firstborn or Primaris. If you are a painter then you still have years of cheap miniatures ahead as people sell their old models to get new ones ("LA's Totally Awesome" is fantastic for stripping models).

 

So try not to worry so much but if you want to talk seriously about being made unfairly obsolete, get on the vox to my Squat Exo-Armour Warlord and his loyal warriors. They're currently rampaging around the inside of a Tyranid hiveship's stomach somewhere waiting for help that is never coming. :D

[Roland Durendal]

Better idea, play what you like with like minded player groups.

 

I still use index 8th with halved ranges to play epic scale ( a far cheaper way to play 40K)  our FLGS has a dedicated group of 5th edition players. it is in our opinion, while not prefect, still the best edition of the game GW ever produced as far as core rules go. we "house rule" in some rules form other editions to make 5th even better. things like snap fire, overwatch, grenade throwing from 6th/7th or the assaulting vehicle rules from 4th. 

 

As we are casual players who will never enter the tourney scene we play among friends who enjoy the social activity of playing the game. as such the fun of playing is paramount, winning or loosing is just the icing on the cake so to speak. 

 

The great thing about playing this way (we allow any codex from 3rd-7th as they are all compatible with 5th), GW will never screw us over again. no FAQs, points changes, models being invalidated/legend, no new books to have to buy to keep our forces viable, etc...

 

It is our hobby, we make of it what we want. what GW is doing with 9th is not what i want, so i will not follow. however  i do admit primaris minis would make fine stand ins for MKIV maximus armor for a 30K army. 

 

just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary

I’m actually doing the same thing right now, though taking it in a slightly different direction. I’m using 7th Ed as my base rules and removing a lot of what broke that edition/rules bloat, and adding in a good amount of 5th edition and a dash of 9th edition to make it a more cohesive and balanced rules set. Downside of course means I have to adjust every 7th Ed codex (points and some stats) but I think the end product will be a solid rules set.

 

And I agree 5th was by far their best edition and the one that came the closest to being a balanced and competitive rules set. I’m jealous you have an active 5th community lol

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The problem with fifth edition was vehicles... it was known as the parking lot edition.

[Roland Durendal]

The problem with fifth edition was vehicles... it was known as the parking lot edition.

I never had an issue with them in any of my friendly or competitive games. Leafblower was a thing for a few months but by and large competitive 5th punished parking lots bc you had to go for the 5 objectives or table quarters (this based on playing NOVA missions/rules). The only issue witb vehicles in 5th was how easy they were to pop, which is one of the tweaks I’ve been making to my revised rule set.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Roland Durendal

[ThePenitentOne]

 

 This isn't like when Dark Eldar got their new range, it didn't invalidate older models. This isn't like when Sisters of Battle got their new range, it didn't invalidate older models. This isn't like when marines got their new kits back when, it didn't invalidate older models.

 

I don't agree with making models invalid and that is what Legend does. It invalidates them. They cease to be for the vast majority of players.

 

 

Yeah... See, as a Drukari player, I'd LOVE to have Trueborn, Bloodbrides, and jetbike HQ in Legends, because they'd be playable. But unfortunately, those units ARE invalid because they don't have rules at all.

 

As a sisters player I am very grateful that Jacobus and Kyrinov are in Legends so that I can still play them. As for our new range not invalidating the old one, I find the scale differences to be too much for my taste, though there are certainly others who don't mind it.

 

The only models that are truly invalid are a) models without rules for the edition you're playing b) models who have changed so much in size that using the old version is a huge game advantage- and even here, every group I've played in the past 30 years would have let me get away with it.

 

You know, in point of fact, Legends was created specifically to PREVENT models from become invalid. Your alternative to Legends is "no rules at all."

[FinalCookie]

 

I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with existing army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

 

Best regards,

 

Jervis Johnson

Head Fanatic

 

This is always the excerpt I go back to whenever I hear worries about the loss of old school marine models. I have a few models knocking around from 3rd edition, and one or two from the old space crusdae box I got from a cousin. They are on 32 MM bases, and while right now they get played as tactical marines, someday, they will be upgraded to Intercessors. And who the hell is going to stop me? Why would anyone care? They're GW products made of plastic on the correct sized base! I have literally NEVER been confronted for using those old school models, and usually, get nothing but positive attention from people who remember when they were released.

 

As long as you are using rules for an army that currently exists, and you are using actual GW product, no one can stop you from playing with your war dolls. And anyone who tries isn't worth your playing time. 

[Scribe]

 

So tell me, when will those older fans get model support or rules support for their ranges?  That's literally at the heart of the problem: people aren't stupid and can see when they've been thrown under the bus in the name of short term profits.

 

Because that's all it boils down to: the fans and the iconic designs get shafted in the name of ravenous capitalism because in the short term Primaris sells.

 

 

Never. Its not 'short term Primaris'. Its long term, slow drip, replacement. Its planned obsolescence. Its selling the same faction to the largest player base, a second time.

 

Many of us knew it years ago. I'm honestly shocked this is still surprising people.

[Evil Eye]

 

I just want to say about the hobby since I came back a few things. I am dissapointed with the other older players who are circling the wagons and just endlessly bashing primaris, gatekeeping SM. I'm not much of a fan myself honestly, though its clear its the future of the space marine range for modern 40k at the moment. We should shift the conversation towards how to adapt to what we dislike and how to fix it. I don't like the stripper boots, so I use greenstuff to fix them etc. Lately people have been putting up more conversion pics, how they are fixing things etc, would like to see more of that, problem > solution.

 

Idealy legends will be a tempory thing so GW can go back in time and do more specialist/ historical stuff. eg Badab War, shifting stuff out of there again over time with new sculpts, rules/ use etc.

So tell me, when will those older fans get model support or rules support for their ranges?  That's literally at the heart of the problem: people aren't stupid and can see when they've been thrown under the bus in the name of short term profits.

 

Because that's all it boils down to: the fans and the iconic designs get shafted in the name of ravenous capitalism because in the short term Primaris sells.

 

You HAVE model support. The Firstborn range is complete and modern and everything has rules. Yes, some of the rules are in Legends, but they're still perfectly usable in anything outside of especially anally retentive tourney environments; you don't even have to buy a new book, it's a free PDF.

 

And if you really can't stand the existence of a ruleset with Primaris in it? Play 7th/5th/your favourite edition. The books haven't self destructed, the letters haven't fallen off of the pages. Suggest it to your friends/gaming group. There's plenty of people who still use non-current rules- I know people who play 3rd edition WHFB.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

It is and always has been the Primaris' impact on the lore and mechanics that bums me out the most. Everything I dislike about their look I can fix. But Primaris are just a continuation of the lore issues we were having from UM before hand. GW gets focused on a branding issue, and to try and make their product seem cooler they bend the universe around the new thing in some weird attempt to trick us into liking it more. Then, after they've warped the world to fit this new image, they start mucking about in the rules and really drive it home. Primaris have the stat block I want, but I can't use them as normal marines because then I suddenly lose the ability to use Drop Pods, etc. If I then change that, I have to take these altered rules to people and explain how I chose to change it because I don't like the direction GW is going, while half of the marine players in my shop are using normal Primaris as Primaris and chugging along with the rules restrictions just fine.

 

Everything about this mess has left a bad taste in my mouth, and I'm not one of the Old Guard or whatever. I'm 26 years old. I'm going to be hobbying for decades to come. The only reason I still work on 40K armies at all is because its the only wargame my buddies currently play. If I had my way we'd collectively find something else. But maybe 9th will fix some of my non marine armies and I can start enjoying the game again, rather than showing up only for the company.

[Vermintide]

In a past life, I was in an underground black/thrash metal band. We met and played with a bunch of really cool bands over the years, many of whom are big names now. I remember seeing and hanging out with all those bands when they were still playing crummy little bars and asking random bystanders for help loading their gear out of the back of a Citroen 206. It was a truly great time that I look upon with deep, intense nostalgia. But it is, regrettably, just that. Nostalgia. That time has been and gone. More than a decade has passed.

 

Cut forward to the present day and some of those bands have hit full mainstream success. They're bands any metalhead has probably heard of, signed to big labels like Nuclear Blast, Earache etc. I don't like their newer stuff- I liked what I heard back then, and how they sounded back then. They've changed and diluted their sound as they've become more successful, and (even though I really hate to admit it) they just don't feel quite so special now that everybody else listens to them. And by the same token... I'm not special just because I've seen them play at Rio's, and now they're playing arenas.

 

Despite that, you know what? Nothing is stopping me spinning those old CDs. And nothing is stopping me enjoying the new music coming out of today's scene, even if it is different to the one I "grew up" in.

[Roland Durendal]

In a past life, I was in an underground black/thrash metal band. We met and played with a bunch of really cool bands over the years, many of whom are big names now. I remember seeing and hanging out with all those bands when they were still playing crummy little bars and asking random bystanders for help loading their gear out of the back of a Citroen 206. It was a truly great time that I look upon with deep, intense nostalgia. But it is, regrettably, just that. Nostalgia. That time has been and gone. More than a decade has passed.

 

Cut forward to the present day and some of those bands have hit full mainstream success. They're bands any metalhead has probably heard of, signed to big labels like Nuclear Blast, Earache etc. I don't like their newer stuff- I liked what I heard back then, and how they sounded back then. They've changed and diluted their sound as they've become more successful, and (even though I really hate to admit it) they just don't feel quite so special now that everybody else listens to them. And by the same token... I'm not special just because I've seen them play at Rio's, and now they're playing arenas.

Despite that, you know what? Nothing is stopping me spinning those old CDs. And nothing is stopping me enjoying the new music coming out of today's scene, even if it is different to the one I "grew up" in.

 

You sir, are my hero. Metal forever \m/