This is My (Yours/Ours) Hobby

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

 This isn't like when Dark Eldar got their new range, it didn't invalidate older models. This isn't like when Sisters of Battle got their new range, it didn't invalidate older models. This isn't like when marines got their new kits back when, it didn't invalidate older models.

 

I don't agree with making models invalid and that is what Legend does. It invalidates them. They cease to be for the vast majority of players.

 

 

Yeah... See, as a Drukari player, I'd LOVE to have Trueborn, Bloodbrides, and jetbike HQ in Legends, because they'd be playable. But unfortunately, those units ARE invalid because they don't have rules at all.

 

As a sisters player I am very grateful that Jacobus and Kyrinov are in Legends so that I can still play them. As for our new range not invalidating the old one, I find the scale differences to be too much for my taste, though there are certainly others who don't mind it.

 

The only models that are truly invalid are a) models without rules for the edition you're playing models who have changed so much in size that using the old version is a huge game advantage- and even here, every group I've played in the past 30 years would have let me get away with it.

 

You know, in point of fact, Legends was created specifically to PREVENT models from become invalid. Your alternative to Legends is "no rules at all."

 

.

Im not quite sure what he was blabbering about - thanks for setting him straight. :D

 

The problem with fifth edition was vehicles... it was known as the parking lot edition.

I never had an issue with them in any of my friendly or competitive games. Leafblower was a thing for a few months but by and large competitive 5th punished parking lots bc you had to go for the 5 objectives or table quarters (this based on playing NOVA missions/rules). The only issue witb vehicles in 5th was how easy they were to pop, which is one of the tweaks I’ve been making to my revised rule set.

 

.

Chimeras for example could be very hard to remove. I remember one game an enemy rhino holding a squad of Berzerkers managed to survive my entire Drukhari army firing into it. Only at the end of fifth with the introduction of the new Necron codex could parking lots be effectively destroyed. Sixth edition saw the new mechanic for hull points introduced as a fix.

[mughi3]

 

Better idea, play what you like with like minded player groups.

 

I still use index 8th with halved ranges to play epic scale ( a far cheaper way to play 40K)  our FLGS has a dedicated group of 5th edition players. it is in our opinion, while not prefect, still the best edition of the game GW ever produced as far as core rules go. we "house rule" in some rules form other editions to make 5th even better. things like snap fire, overwatch, grenade throwing from 6th/7th or the assaulting vehicle rules from 4th. 

 

As we are casual players who will never enter the tourney scene we play among friends who enjoy the social activity of playing the game. as such the fun of playing is paramount, winning or loosing is just the icing on the cake so to speak. 

 

The great thing about playing this way (we allow any codex from 3rd-7th as they are all compatible with 5th), GW will never screw us over again. no FAQs, points changes, models being invalidated/legend, no new books to have to buy to keep our forces viable, etc...

 

It is our hobby, we make of it what we want. what GW is doing with 9th is not what i want, so i will not follow. however  i do admit primaris minis would make fine stand ins for MKIV maximus armor for a 30K army. 

 

just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary

I’m actually doing the same thing right now, though taking it in a slightly different direction. I’m using 7th Ed as my base rules and removing a lot of what broke that edition/rules bloat, and adding in a good amount of 5th edition and a dash of 9th edition to make it a more cohesive and balanced rules set. Downside of course means I have to adjust every 7th Ed codex (points and some stats) but I think the end product will be a solid rules set.

 

And I agree 5th was by far their best edition and the one that came the closest to being a balanced and competitive rules set. I’m jealous you have an active 5th community lol

 

 

 All it takes is promotion. i still own the core rule books for 3rd-6th (gave the 7th away last week to a friend) and at least half the codexes for 5th. i am still getting new players who have never played anything before 8th into 5th. 

 

 

 Yeah some of our regulars are really big into 7th and 30K (which i also love) but not formations so that is the edition they are focusing on.  i still play it with them as lo0ng as we don't use the stupid 6th/7th magic version of psychic phase or hull points. 

 

 

The problem with fifth edition was vehicles... it was known as the parking lot edition.

I never had an issue with them in any of my friendly or competitive games. Leafblower was a thing for a few months but by and large competitive 5th punished parking lots bc you had to go for the 5 objectives or table quarters (this based on playing NOVA missions/rules). The only issue witb vehicles in 5th was how easy they were to pop, which is one of the tweaks I’ve been making to my revised rule set.

 

 

It was never a problem in the hundreds of games of 5th i have played. the access in all armies across the board for AT weapons went up exponentially. keeping in mind that 5th required bringing the right weapon to the right fight  using on table tactics to pull off (instead of gimmick CP/stratagems in your list building) it was an edition much more about what you did with what you had and not just what you had on the table. 

 

In a past life, I was in an underground black/thrash metal band. We met and played with a bunch of really cool bands over the years, many of whom are big names now. I remember seeing and hanging out with all those bands when they were still playing crummy little bars and asking random bystanders for help loading their gear out of the back of a Citroen 206. It was a truly great time that I look upon with deep, intense nostalgia. But it is, regrettably, just that. Nostalgia. That time has been and gone. More than a decade has passed.

 

Cut forward to the present day and some of those bands have hit full mainstream success. They're bands any metalhead has probably heard of, signed to big labels like Nuclear Blast, Earache etc. I don't like their newer stuff- I liked what I heard back then, and how they sounded back then. They've changed and diluted their sound as they've become more successful, and (even though I really hate to admit it) they just don't feel quite so special now that everybody else listens to them. And by the same token... I'm not special just because I've seen them play at Rio's, and now they're playing arenas.

Despite that, you know what? Nothing is stopping me spinning those old CDs. And nothing is stopping me enjoying the new music coming out of today's scene, even if it is different to the one I "grew up" in.

 

You sir, are my hero. Metal forever \m/

 

 

 Been a metal head since the 80s still banging. just picked up the new testament, CELTICA(pipes rock) as well as some japanese bands fairy kingdom and rie aka suzuka

 

This is my favorite bands list https://imgur.com/gallery/b1PTQ4Z

 

Still cannot believe i forgot to add show-ya...thats like forgetting judas priest. 

 

 

This isn't like when Dark Eldar got their new range, it didn't invalidate older models. This isn't like when Sisters of Battle got their new range, it didn't invalidate older models. This isn't like when marines got their new kits back when, it didn't invalidate older models.

 

I don't agree with making models invalid and that is what Legend does. It invalidates them. They cease to be for the vast majority of players.

 

Yeah... See, as a Drukari player, I'd LOVE to have Trueborn, Bloodbrides, and jetbike HQ in Legends, because they'd be playable. But unfortunately, those units ARE invalid because they don't have rules at all.

 

As a sisters player I am very grateful that Jacobus and Kyrinov are in Legends so that I can still play them. As for our new range not invalidating the old one, I find the scale differences to be too much for my taste, though there are certainly others who don't mind it.

 

The only models that are truly invalid are a) models without rules for the edition you're playing models who have changed so much in size that using the old version is a huge game advantage- and even here, every group I've played in the past 30 years would have let me get away with it.

 

You know, in point of fact, Legends was created specifically to PREVENT models from become invalid. Your alternative to Legends is "no rules at all."

 

.

Im not quite sure what he was blabbering about - thanks for setting him straight.

 

The problem with fifth edition was vehicles... it was known as the parking lot edition.

I never had an issue with them in any of my friendly or competitive games. Leafblower was a thing for a few months but by and large competitive 5th punished parking lots bc you had to go for the 5 objectives or table quarters (this based on playing NOVA missions/rules). The only issue witb vehicles in 5th was how easy they were to pop, which is one of the tweaks I’ve been making to my revised rule set.

 

.

Chimeras for example could be very hard to remove. I remember one game an enemy rhino holding a squad of Berzerkers managed to survive my entire Drukhari army firing into it. Only at the end of fifth with the introduction of the new Necron codex could parking lots be effectively destroyed. Sixth edition saw the new mechanic for hull points introduced as a fix.

 

 

And it was a horrible non-immersive fix it added a 3rd damage mechanic that punished vehicles. instant death/vehicle damage/ and a wound system that was poorly implemented. 

 

A wound system can work if done properly DUST 1947 shows that (and might i add is a far better game system than 40K currently). 

 

I refused to play with it when they introduced it in 6th (but 6th was a terrible edition nobody in our area played anyway) and we house ruled it out in 7th ed games. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lolz well luckily you have like minded players so good for you. I’m really liking armor being converted over to wounds now... this is the true fix to instant death to armor and you could still do it in fifth as well.

 

I think of fifth edition as the beginning of the end with what sixth and seventh brought... two worst editions ever with rules bloat, formations and the crazy ally system. Luckily eighth was a complete reboot.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[mughi3]

Well i have been playing with many of the same people for nearly 10-20 years...so yeah

 

People forget the allies system worked in 3rd - 5th it was just very restricted. 

 

.it had to be within your own faction (ie chaos with chaos, imperium with imperium etc..)

.you were required to bring 1 HQ and 1 troops selection minimum for the allied force

.you were limited to 1 of everything else from the allied FOC  after that. 

 

 The exception being inquisition units for imperial forces. 

 

Even in a 2k game from that edition  it didn't allow you to abuse the system because you really could not get all that much after the FOC requirements were met

[Roland Durendal]

Lolz well luckily you have like minded players so good for you. I’m really liking armor being converted over to wounds now... this is the true fix to instant death to armor and you could still do it in fifth as well.

 

I think of fifth edition as the beginning of the end with what sixth and seventh brought... two worst editions ever with rules bloat, formations and the crazy ally system. Luckily eighth was a complete reboot.

It’s not even a good fix though, as anyone who’s played 8th can tell you. People rarely took vehicles (Or more than 1 or 2...unless they were running all knights lists, and even then) because of how easily/quickly they still died. The wounds system was implemented for “simplicity” but it didn’t change the fact that since the intro of LoW and SH in 6th (aka the apocalypsization of normal matched play 40K) weapons have become more lethal, with increased sS, # of shots, and in 8th, multiple D per hit, just to compensate for something that should never have been brought over from the realm FW rules/apocalypse/opponents permission only. So no. 8th didn’t fix anything. They just got rid of formations and gave you strategem and army rules bloat sooo...good job? I always laugh when people say/think 8th is/was the best and “fixed” the game for better. It didn’t. It just changed what broke looked like.

 

And that’s saying a lot from me because I hated 7th and 40K in general by the end of 7th. I still think 6/7th broke the game terribly and irrovocably btw allies, formations, SHs, and LoW, and only now is 9th sorta kinda starting to suture those wounds. Sorta. Kinda.

[mughi3]

superheavies were a lot less lethal back in the day. 

A baneblade could only ever move 6" , 3" if it took engine damage. 

 

And "D" weapons were originally not a thing a turbo laser destructor was a small blast S9/AP2 template in 3rd/4th. even when they introduced apoc D was still limited, just a bit more powerful ignoring cover/armor but not invul saves and doing an  auto pen/extra +1 on the damage chart to vehicles. 

 

Even in 5th i played against a warhound titan....ignored it most of the game since it could at most kill 2 things. with a 750 points sink in his army i just focused on killing the little stuff...like land raiders and troops 

Edited August 8, 2020 by mughi3

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Lolz well luckily you have like minded players so good for you. I’m really liking armor being converted over to wounds now... this is the true fix to instant death to armor and you could still do it in fifth as well.

 

I think of fifth edition as the beginning of the end with what sixth and seventh brought... two worst editions ever with rules bloat, formations and the crazy ally system. Luckily eighth was a complete reboot.

It’s not even a good fix though, as anyone who’s played 8th can tell you. People rarely took vehicles (Or more than 1 or 2...unless they were running all knights lists, and even then) because of how easily/quickly they still died. The wounds system was implemented for “simplicity” but it didn’t change the fact that since the intro of LoW and SH in 6th (aka the apocalypsization of normal matched play 40K) weapons have become more lethal, with increased sS, # of shots, and in 8th, multiple D per hit, just to compensate for something that should never have been brought over from the realm FW rules/apocalypse/opponents permission only. So no. 8th didn’t fix anything. They just got rid of formations and gave you strategem and army rules bloat sooo...good job? I always laugh when people say/think 8th is/was the best and “fixed” the game for better. It didn’t. It just changed what broke looked like.

 

And that’s saying a lot from me because I hated 7th and 40K in general by the end of 7th. I still think 6/7th broke the game terribly and irrovocably btw allies, formations, SHs, and LoW, and only now is 9th sorta kinda starting to suture those wounds. Sorta. Kinda.

 

.

vehicles are gonna be a lot more popular in ninth edition. The wound system is far superior as well. Hull points meant your vehicles could still be one shotted while Riptides and Wraith Knights you had to take them down to zero wounds which is far more resilient.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[War Angel]

An edition where all the weapons had to shoot at the same target, which was also the edition where all the weapons couldn’t possibly target the same thing (for tanks) or be useful against the same things (that lascannon in a tactical squad, or the 6 bolt guns in a devistator squad) should never be considered the best. I’m not a huge fan of how Marine armies have become clumped around characters to get buffs, but then I think back to how captains used to be nothing but a melee best stick, who against proper melee armies would always go last (other than your own units) no mater who charged.... I’m glad they at least have value.

[mughi3]

I never said it was perfect but given the whole of the rules it is still the best edition. yes it makes more sense to be able to split fire. but back then it was done for balance and only a very few rare exceptions could units split fire and they had wargear to allow it-power of the machine spirit, target lock, auspex etc... 

 

the las cannons kill all things, they are just needed VS armor/big creatures.

 

Also HQs did actually have a role. 

.master of the forge-ranged offensive commander

.chaplain-boost assault units commander

.librarian-psychic shenanigans commander, quite useful in many different areas, from shooting to melee to GAKing big things with its force weapon. 

.captains/chapter masters-powerful in their own right in CC but you forget the other things they did-table wide LD buffs for "commanding" and sometimes special skill buffs. logan grimnar could choose to give a unit he was attached to a single special skill- tank hunter, fearless, relentless or preferred enemy every turn. 

 

the problem now is the re-roll bubble, it drags out the game when you get to re-do an entire phase for any unit within 6" it also stupidly increases lethality beyond reason. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by mughi3

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

With the new rules for LoS castling your Marines is no longer a sound tactic and also since the scenarios are objective holding versus killing enemy units same thing. Your issues seem to really be with eighth edition not ninth .

[mughi3]

Oh i have a whole slew of issues with 9th that make it even worse than 8th stratagems aside. 

[War Angel]

Was in a rush to get something down on the table not to have it sit on my chest all day at work and now I got blown out like a sentinel getting hit by a volcano lance. Fair play, I got nuked and chose poor examples that I should of known better than to use half baked info in a moment of rush and emotion.

 

Welp, guess that invalidates everything I said then? 

 

Know what...going to take a small break away...gather my thoughts and put to keystrokes better my thoughts. Just know it isn't in favour of legends, isn't in favour of having land raiders replaced by awful repulsors and isn't in favour of replacing firstborn with primaris, but not against Primaris.

There’s this whole thing saying how this is (my yours and our) hobby, and how it sucks when someone else says your models are trash, and it hurts that there’s the knife of legends held to older models throats. I’m going to repeat a part of that. It sucks when someone says your model is trash. When someone says “X is awful, X is ugly, X is disgusting and I hate seeing it and hope GW stops making it.

 

And then there’s people like you who turn right around and say that the models other people love are awful, because it’s not what you want. And we have to listen to it every day on every thread, in every forum, in every sub form. Because it’s not what you wanted GW to make. We don’t all have the same taste, and if you don’t like it fine, but stop calling our models trash when you want to make a point that your models shouldn’t be left behind. It makes it hard to stand beside you when you put others against you.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

He’s on a crusade lately... I get it that some people can’t accept change and it makes them feel uncomfortable but yeah same same ole gets old real fast .

[PeteySödes]

Take it down a few notches gentlemen or we’re going on a break. There’s better ways to articulate these arguments without sounding personal or judgmental.

[smileyjim]

I do feel uncomfortable about it though... why can’t we just discuss the hobby without going places there ?

People don't grow when they are in their safe space. I'm very much against the PC culture we are sinking into and hiding from life doesn't help anyone. The poster was making a great point supported by his personal experience on why the hobby has helped him. That's more important to voice than paint schemes or model redundancies. It's nice to be reminded that this hobby provides alot of positivity to people's lives, there's alot of complaining about smaller aspects of the hobby which can often drown out the benefits that most of us get from the hobby.

 

Anyway hope this doesn't come across as attacking you mate I just wanted to put a but of support behind the poster.

[jaxom]

 

MISSION STATEMENT

The Bolter & Chainsword exists to help people better enjoy and understand the Warhammer 40,000 hobby and games set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe through constructive discussion.

 

Questions I try to ask myself before posting: 1. Is this constructive or nothing is really lost if I don't post it? 2. Could this be read as an attack against what a person enjoys about the hobby?

 

We're all here because, for some reason or another, we really like engaging in 40k content. At our best we bolster and support one another.

 

In some ways, this thread reminds of legacy servers for old multiplayer computer games. A passionate community (or part of a larger community) will find a way to make a thing work even if the company which originally produced it no longer supports it.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Folks, OP gave mental health issues as context as this hobby helped him in dark days.

Let's not overblow it and make that the discussion theme.

I believe OP is trying to pass a message of hope, that you can always find something to enjoy in this hobby, despite the changes it goes through.

Let's keep focused on OP's intent.

[Brother Sergeant Tiberius]

I am carer for my partner with degenerative conditions, I'm only 28 so we are both youngish so I fell your struggle of what to give up/whats more important. However my partner encourages me to model even though I have sold atmies and took year breaks here and there because it keeps my head focused and better. Without being in the right heads pace you can't fulfill your role as a carer. Ic you get burnt out emotionally you and they suffer so you have to enrich your life jn anyway posible.

Sorry for the rant and if other board members are struggling ill try my best to lend a digital ear as I check the board daily.

Edited August 9, 2020 by WarriorFish
Off topic removed