Qin Xa on the tabletop

[b1soul]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRXJ15V9DW4zA_4s3dxdIjhrWtq83K9bf2QrA&usqp=CAU

 

The official release of Qin Xa on FW just had me thinking...how good is ol' Qin on the current tabletop? How much value does he contribute relative to other Praetor characters, including optimized generic Praetors? Looking forward to any thoughts and analyses by fellow craters.

[The Scorpion]

I believe he is tailor made for Zone Mortalis, with his Terminator bodyguard outside the elites slot and MotL.

[SixOfOne]

Giving a vague breakdown of vacuum combat in terms of pure statistics:

 

Qin Xa vs. Generic Praetor w. 'standard loadout - digital weps, paragon blade, other specialist wep, iron halo'

 

Qin Xa (PtHM) strikes first

 

5 attacks, 2.75 hits (MC), 1.815 wounds, 0.9075 wounds after saves

 

Qin Xa (StM) strikes last

 

5 attacks, 2.75 hits (MC), 2.2825 wounds, 1.14125 wounds after saves

 

Generic Praetor strikes

 

6 attacks, 3 hits, 1.98 wounds, 0.99 wounds after saves

 

As Qin Xa has 4 wounds, he will kill the Praetor in either round 3 (StM) or round 4 (PtHM) before the Praetor strikes.

 

Qin Xa vs. Eidolon (for PoH purposes)

 

Qin Xa (PtHM) strikes first

 

5 attacks, 2.75 hits (MC), 1.815 wounds, 0.9075 wounds after saves

 

Qin Xa (StM) strikes last

 

5 attacks, 2.75 hits (MC), 2.2825 wounds, 1.14125 wounds after saves

 

Eidolon

 

4 attacks, 2.25 hits (MC), 1.8675 wounds, 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

As Qin Xa doesn't have eternal warrior, Eidolon will ID him in round 2. Realistically though this would probably be a relatively close fight.

 

However, Qin Xa will always have 6 attacks on the first round of combat and, more importantly gets +1 STR when he charges. 

 

This has the following affects:

 

Qin Xa (PtHM) - Charge

 

6 attacks, 3.25 hits (MC), 2.6975 wounds, 1.34875 wounds after saves (4++)

 

Qin Xa (StM) - Charge - STR 8 attacks, so ID

 

6 attacks, 3.25 hits (MC), 2.6975 wounds, 1.34875 wounds after saves (4++).

 

TL:DR - Qin Xa is pretty good. He has enough attacks to effectively take on characters and units and high initiative so will almost always strike before them. The former (and multiwound T4 models) you would always want to use StM on, as he will ID them on the charge. PtHM is very much for killing infantry. As the Scorpion pointed out though, one of his main strengths is giving Keshig power glaives and being able to force when a unit arrives from reserve. Overall - flexible but quite expensive.

[Marshal Loss]

He's good, although I'd mainly take him because of his Keshig upgrade. I also like that he loses to Eidolon on the tabletop. How appropriate!

[b1soul]

Out of curiosity, do any characters whom we know do not survive long after the Heresy have Eternal Warrior? Edited August 8, 2020 by b1soul

[SixOfOne]

Out of curiosity, do any characters whom we know do not survive long after the Heresy have Eternal Warrior?

 

Ferrus Manus

[b1soul]

Ah yes...but all Primarchs have EW?

[Indefragable]

Off the top of my head Sigismund and one of the Blackshields are the only characters with EW, outside of the gear they lets generic Salamanders get it and I think the IF and SoH have Relics that may do it.

 

Eternal Warrior is quite rare in 30k.

[SkimaskMohawk]

He's a good blender and has synergy with chogorian brotherhood. The dual profile means that he's comparable to a paragon+powerfist praetor in the first round while being cheaper. He only really loses out against mechanicum and daemons. Plus the keshig are pretty good, though I don't think the cost is accurate on the power glaive upgrade for them.

 

The only real problem is that everyone who read wraight's scar books expected more out of qin xa and jaghatai in terms of melee output/duelling. They're both basically blenders who are annoying to kill due to hit and run and the primarch even more so eith his bike. But they're not the best swordsman in the imperium or a captain mistaken for him.

[b1soul]

They kinda turned Corax into a blender as well, no?

 

Perhaps it could be said that duelists win duels while blenders win wars?

[SkimaskMohawk]

They kinda turned Corax into a blender as well, no?

 

Perhaps it could be said that duelists win duels while blenders win wars?

Kind of? He's a blender, but can also kill vehicles with str 10 on the charge or outlast duels when you stack shadow-walk to be hit on 5s/6s depending on opponent.

 

Imo the problem is that jaghatai is just kind of bland. Hes supposed to be a superlative swordsman, to the point where he told fulgrim he'd stomp him. But you look at his combat stats and that doesn't hold up; he's just fast. His weapon skill is a primarch-low of 7, he doesn't have any way to inflict instead death, his strength is 7 at most. Hes simply unimpressive in combat for a primarch who was supposed to be.

 

Going by stats, Qin Xa is a more efficient blender of dudes when having moved 6" than his primarch by 0.10 wounds and can instant kill toughness 4/threaten vehicles if the need arises. No wonder why eidolon mistook him for the primarch lol.

[The Scorpion]

They kinda turned Corax into a blender as well, no?

 

Perhaps it could be said that duelists win duels while blenders win wars?

 

Based and Chogorispilled

[b1soul]

The Jaghatai verbal smackdown of Fulbrim is just that though, a verbal smackdown. Like when Russ goes on about how he's able to kill every other primarch or when Corax thinks he's one the best save for Angron.

 

I do agree with you though...that the Khan should be one of the more combat-oriented Primarchs with higher WS and dueling anility. But I think FW wanted to make him a hit-and-run blender on a scaled-up jetbike, because no other primarch fits that niche. Maybe not even Corax...whereas there are a bunch of strong dueling Primarchs already in the mix.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The end result of Khan's stats on bike makes him impossible to deal with disruption. Between the speed, t7, 6w and 3+ jink he's very hard to kill without dedicated weapons. You can't pin him combat, so he's going to around and throw out a bunch of attacks and either sweep the unit or just kill them.

[b1soul]

Are you saying jetbike Jaghatai is a tad overpowered or just a nuisance?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Are you saying jetbike Jaghatai is a tad overpowered or just a nuisance?

I feel like a bit of both? He's one of the few primarchs you can run solo, he has the speed to put himself in an extremely good position to charge turn 2, and he shouldn't be able to be blown away depending on terrain quality. Even the heaviest of melee units shouldn't be able to kill him and you can then just hit and run away or countercharge (or both). Maneuverability gives you a lot of options and defensive stats let's him survive to take advantage of them.

[Indefragable]

 

Are you saying jetbike Jaghatai is a tad overpowered or just a nuisance?

I feel like a bit of both? He's one of the few primarchs you can run solo, he has the speed to put himself in an extremely good position to charge turn 2, and he shouldn't be able to be blown away depending on terrain quality. Even the heaviest of melee units shouldn't be able to kill him and you can then just hit and run away or countercharge (or both). Maneuverability gives you a lot of options and defensive stats let's him survive to take advantage of them.

 

 

Personally, I think there's been some odd design decisions in 30k overall (but hey, we all have our gripes so nothing new there). I do feel like some stuff has gotten lost in translation between the original design notes and their actual implementation on the table, let alone with the changeover to the new team. I don't blame the new team, per se, like a carpenter or software engineer stepping into a half-done project there's always a balance between figuring out and completing what the previous crew did and just finishing it off with your own know-how. Personally I think books 7 and 8 suffer the most from that, but hey, I could just be biased...book 9 already seems to have a touch of the new crews really getting to own a piece of it, though book 10+ will truly be their time to shine (or not). 

 

As @SkimaskMohawk mentions above, Khan has an interesting role on the tabletop, being a truly solo-able dude on his bike. He's basically the Primarch Distraction Carnifex off doing his own thing to distract you from the rest of the army doing things: ignore him at your own peril, yet you also can't commit too much to him otherwise the other 2100pts of White Scars will :cuss you up. Like being trapped in a storm, eh? The issue is when you take him off his bike, his only really shtick is the "always strike first" thing which can easily be undone with Concussive or a (theoretical) failed H&R roll. If he had the ability to ignore Concussive so he was always going first--with at least I8--then suddenly he becomes an interesting option and the imagery of the Khan landing blow after blow with lightning speed on Mortarion while Morty just takes it becomes quite vivid. I do think he should be WS8. 

 

By 7th Ed rule standards, the V Legion "should" be the Hit & Run legion, yet the VIII and XIX kind of already have that shtick (benefits of being released earlier?) as do Curze and Corax. 

 

Qin Xa fits into this in the sense that he is by no means a slouch, with AP2 @ I6 which is almost Eldar-y and really only Sevatar comes close to. But just like with Khan, Initiative is almost a red herring in 30k due to how easily it is undone by a single Concussive blow....something that is quite prevalent in the game. Arguably one of the reasons the III Legion are considered a bit weak in the current state of the game. Where high-Initiative characters shine is when they also have Instant Death (Sevatar), multi-wound (IX Legion Blade of Perditions), some form of Shred (Khârn), or just a truckload of attacks. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well it's interesting that the always strike first thing isn't stopped by concussive; tagging him with it by shooting won't stop him attacking above initiative 10. He does get trapped in combat by concussive, but if he's not on the bike he should be with dudes, in which case it's hard enough to dedicate thunder hammer hits to him due to LoS!

 

Night lords and raven guard only get hit and run on their primarchs. They have very good deployment options due to infiltrate, pods and other deepstrike, but very limited hit and run. The scars all get it in chogorian brotherhood, more or less.

 

I was wrong that qin xa has synergy with the rite though, your warlords gotta be on bike and it's his trait that lets him manipulate reserves.

 

Imo, the reason why the EC are a little weak comes down to a few factors. The first are their special units are only so-so and require over commitment to make them stand out; their melee units especially need to be charging. The second problem is their rites; 3rd company elite is that overcommitment to noise marines which then doesn't particularly synergize with the rest of the legions rules. And maru skara, which is still written for 5th edition where outflankers could charge; the best use is to dump medium range shooting units on their flank (like contemptor mortis). Which again has counter synergy to their trait.

 

Their characters are actually quite powerful at what they do; charging in with a Phoenix spear or paragon blade will let you beat up on most characters.

[Mogsam]

The issue with EC is that their spears don't work past turn 1 charge.

 

Sure, a palatine blade or phoenix terminator squad will utterly massacre other infantry squads on the charge, but the second you do the next unit can counter charge you and you have a very expensive power sword unit in 2+ armour that can't reliably kill other elite units.

 

What makes this worse is that a dread can hold a terminator squad up indefinately. I don't use phoenix anymore, I just use the models as the base for normal terminators. While their fluffy and awesome models their complete inability to deal with half the units in the game makes them pointless.

 

I'm also not a massive fan on the gets hot on noise marines. I've killed far more of my own men than their special rule ever has of theirs!

[b1soul]

@SixOfOne

"However, Qin Xa will always have 6 attacks on the first round of combat and, more importantly gets +1 STR when he charges.

 

This has the following affects:

 

Qin Xa (PtHM) - Charge

 

6 attacks, 3.25 hits (MC), 2.6975 wounds, 1.34875 wounds after saves (4++)

 

Qin Xa (StM) - Charge - STR 8 attacks, so ID"

 

Does this mean he pretty much Instant Deaths any other SM character (without EW) if he charges?

[SixOfOne]

@SixOfOne

"However, Qin Xa will always have 6 attacks on the first round of combat and, more importantly gets +1 STR when he charges.

 

This has the following affects:

 

Qin Xa (PtHM) - Charge

 

6 attacks, 3.25 hits (MC), 2.6975 wounds, 1.34875 wounds after saves (4++)

 

Qin Xa (StM) - Charge - STR 8 attacks, so ID"

 

Does this mean he pretty much Instant Deaths any other SM character (without EW) if he charges?

 

As long as they have T4, yes.

 

STR 4 + 3 (StM) + 1 Furious Charge = STR 8 on the charge.

[SkimaskMohawk]

And if they don't have a 3++ or catch him with a lucky instant death.

[Kizzdougs]

Imo, the reason why the EC are a little weak comes down to a few factors. The first are their special units are only so-so and require over commitment to make them stand out; their melee units especially need to be charging. The second problem is their rites; 3rd company elite is that overcommitment to noise marines which then doesn't particularly synergize with the rest of the legions rules. And maru skara, which is still written for 5th edition where outflankers could charge; the best use is to dump medium range shooting units on their flank (like contemptor mortis). Which again has counter synergy to their trait.

Yeah, even with the Playtest rules the Palatine Blades don't measure up well to comparable units such as the Dawnbreakers. 

• A 10 man Dawnbreaker squad costs 335pts.
• A 10 man Palatine Blade squad with power spears, jump packs, and artificer armour costs 450pts.

A 115pt difference for two pretty similar units.

 

The Dawnbreakers also have grenade launchers, can take squad wide melta-bombs, and don't have to rely on charging for their LA rule to kick in. It gets even better if they're taken in a Day of Revelations list where they also get the +1 Initiative on the charge. Add in Sanguinius and they become Troops (scoring).

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea the jump pack blood angel units are hilariously undercosted, do a point break down of angel tears and prepare to cry when the math tells you what they should cost. At least you can take solace in the fact that not a single legion special unit is as bad as the crimson paladins lol.

[Indefragable]

How would ya’ll rectify the EC/their special units?

 

Also, would you say it’s a matter of Dawnbringers being undercosted or Palatine Blades being overcosted?