Qin Xa on the tabletop

[Kizzdougs]

How would ya’ll rectify the EC/their special units?

 

Also, would you say it’s a matter of Dawnbringers being undercosted or Palatine Blades being overcosted?

To be honest I think it's a bit of both. The Dawnbreakers should probably be at least 30pts and some of the Palatine Blade upgrades should be cheaper. If you take the cost of the equipment on a Palatine Blade and apply it to the Dawnbreakers, the base cost of a Dawnbreaker minus the wargear would be 0pts (and that's not even considering the grenade launchers).... Spear 10pts, armour 10pts, jump pack 5pts.

So the Dawnbreakers are a bit too cheap and the Palatine Blade equipment is too expensive. The disparity is magnified by the great synergies between the Dawnbreakers, Day of Revelations, and Sanguinius.

 

I'm a total EC fan so I don't know if I'm the best person to suggest new rules for them, but I'd go for something like this:

• +1 Initiative in the first round of every combat.
• Preferred Enemy in challenges (seems appropriate as they're all obsessed with duelling, and +1 initiative in challenges on top of the +1 in the first round of combat seems a bit superfluous).
• Fleet (generally more useful than Crusader and will help get those charges off).
• Phoenix spears gain either Rending or Shred (they'd be better than they are now, but still not as good as the WS power-glaives). 
• I also think the Ultramarines' Rigid Chain of Command would be a more suitable drawback for the EC than it actually is for the UM. The EC are obsessed with hierarchy and where probably the most rigidly organised Legion. Not sure how I'd adjust the rule for the EC. 

That might seem like quite an upgrade (it is), but I don't think it's unreasonable compared to LA rules such as the Space Wolves.

I would have liked to add something similar to Preferred Sense to represent the EC's extreme level of planning and battlefield coordination, but these aspects are already represented by the Maru Skara and Fulgrim's ability to re-roll some reserve rolls.

[Indefragable]

 

 

How would ya’ll rectify the EC/their special units?

 

Also, would you say it’s a matter of Dawnbringers being undercosted or Palatine Blades being overcosted?

To be honest I think it's a bit of both. The Dawnbreakers should probably be at least 30pts and some of the Palatine Blade upgrades should be cheaper. If you take the cost of the equipment on a Palatine Blade and apply it to the Dawnbreakers, the base cost of a Dawnbreaker minus the wargear would be 0pts (and that's not even considering the grenade launchers).... Spear 10pts, armour 10pts, jump pack 5pts.

So the Dawnbreakers are a bit too cheap and the Palatine Blade equipment is too expensive. The disparity is magnified by the great synergies between the Dawnbreakers, Day of Revelations, and Sanguinius.

 

I'm a total EC fan so I don't know if I'm the best person to suggest new rules for them, but I'd go for something like this:

• +1 Initiative in the first round of every combat.
• Preferred Enemy in challenges (seems appropriate as they're all obsessed with duelling, and +1 initiative in challenges on top of the +1 in the first round of combat seems a bit superfluous).
• Fleet (generally more useful than Crusader and will help get those charges off).
• Phoenix spears gain either Rending or Shred (they'd be better than they are now, but still not as good as the WS power-glaives).
• I also think the Ultramarines' Rigid Chain of Command would be a more suitable drawback for the EC than it actually is for the UM. The EC are obsessed with hierarchy and where probably the most rigidly organised Legion. Not sure how I'd adjust the rule for the EC.

That might seem like quite an upgrade (it is), but I don't think it's unreasonable compared to LA rules such as the Space Wolves.

I would have liked to add something similar to Preferred Sense to represent the EC's extreme level of planning and battlefield coordination, but these aspects are already represented by the Maru Skara and Fulgrim's ability to re-roll some reserve rolls.

I appreciate the honest reply. I also truly appreciate the self-awareness around your own biases...

 

...I’m a big Blood Angels guy, so I actually find too many faults with their current setup. Sangy+ Dawnbringers + DoR is indeed a helluva combo, but BA are kind of a one-trick pong currently in 30k: that precise setup is the single basket holding all the eggs to the point that every single BA 30k player has it and everyone who has or ever will fight against BA is prepared for it.

 

Aside:

Hidden Content

My gripes with BA as they currently exist are:

 

-Sangy has the least buffs for his army out of all the Primarchs. Think about it: he only buffs a unit type (Jump) that has 4 options and friendly units need to be within the might-as-well-be-in-the-same-unit distance of 3”. Yes he unlocks DB as Troops, but so many other Primarchs allow special units as Troops

 

-Sangy and Raldoron have no synergy. It seems beyond bizarre to me that they not only don’t work together, but pretty much half the reason for taking Raldoron (choose your WLT) simply ceases to exist if you bring them together

 

-Dawnbringers are cool, but they are a unit that needs to Charge, but also wants to Deep Strike right in your enemy’s counter-charge range.

 

-Others, but I’ll cut it off there for this discussion

 

Even though I’ve never even seen them in person, I do think 30k EC are a bit off. I feel like something like +1I in general would be interesting, though it’s one of those things where against high-defense units just waiting for I1 it’s kind of pointless while units trying to strike first as well it’s almost OP...but I guess that’s more my frustrations with the current state of the binary melee game at the moment. It’s a bell curve: either go the best defense you can and a thunder hammer or go the highest initiative you can with AP2...anything in between is kind of pointless.

 

I do like the idea of EC being a literal risk-reward faction where they are quite good at things like challenges but losing them hurts them all the more. I feel like they should be a good asymmetric Legion where they can take on fights above their weight class, yet should suffer morale even worse then others when things go awry (though that bleeds into Night Lord territory).

 

How should EC compare to WS? Their both considered the fast ones in their own way?

[b1soul]

On a fluff level, seems like the EC emphasise a highly choreographed, micro-planned form of speed

 

...whereas the WS emphasise a very loosely choreographed form of speed just a hair's breadth removed from chaos thanks to Chogorian gestalt intuition

Edited August 11, 2020 by b1soul

[Kizzdougs]

 

...I’m a big Blood Angels guy, so I actually find too many faults with their current setup. Sangy+ Dawnbringers + DoR is indeed a helluva combo, but BA are kind of a one-trick pong currently in 30k: that precise setup is the single basket holding all the eggs to the point that every single BA 30k player has it and everyone who has or ever will fight against BA is prepared for it.

Yeah, I don't know anyone that is completely happy with how their favourite Legion is represented by the rules. I saw SW and WS players complain when they got their rules and in my mind they have some of the very best LA rules and wargear. My main army is Alpha Legion and it's generally accepted that they have some pretty good rules, but I'm still not 100% happy with them.

 

I can appreciate that it could be frustrating being a one trick pony with the BA, but the EC are a no trick pony... The best way to write an EC list is to write a generic Legion Astartes list and forget about the EC specific rules (except for spears on sergeants and some Consuls). I would absolutely love to take Day of Revelation as a Row. As an outsider, I'd love to have the BA rules.

 

At least with the BA their one trick is very fluffy/appropriate and is a very good trick.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@indefragabal you know you can always...not use your primarch and day of revelation right? Like change up the army comp and rite to be less predictable, while still retaining some great special units and legion rules? I get that these armies are expensive and it takes time to collect and paint, but expand the focus off deepstriking turn 1 lol.

 

On the topic of scars and ec and speed.

 

The ec rules don't make them particularly fast; crusader gives you a small boost to speed, but most of their units want to get in position to charge via assault vehicle, not slog it up. They do have a ton of deployment options from maru skara and master of ambush off fulgrim. Their speed is a result of needing to charge to have any value in their trait or majority of special units.

 

The scars on the other hand are actually fast and are incentivised to move at full speed. Their main rite makes you fill up on outriders and jetbikes, and also gives hit and run, their trait gives reroll to wounds in shooting and combat when you go your full movement. All those fast models you want to take also happen to have some pretty good shooting weapons, so it's not all about driving right into combat.

[Indefragable]

@indefragabal you know you can always...not use your primarch and day of revelation right? Like change up the army comp and rite to be less predictable, while still retaining some great special units and legion rules? I get that these armies are expensive and it takes time to collect and paint, but expand the focus off deepstriking turn 1 lol.

 

On the topic of scars and ec and speed.

 

The ec rules don't make them particularly fast; crusader gives you a small boost to speed, but most of their units want to get in position to charge via assault vehicle, not slog it up. They do have a ton of deployment options from maru skara and master of ambush off fulgrim. Their speed is a result of needing to charge to have any value in their trait or majority of special units.

 

The scars on the other hand are actually fast and are incentivised to move at full speed. Their main rite makes you fill up on outriders and jetbikes, and also gives hit and run, their trait gives reroll to wounds in shooting and combat when you go your full movement. All those fast models you want to take also happen to have some pretty good shooting weapons, so it's not all about driving right into combat.

 

Oh I absolutely know you don't have to go mono-build with an army. However*....

 

As for EC/WS: I guess the comparison I was making was that EC have for quite a while been the ones that are fast in combat (highest initiative all around typically), both fluff and crunch, where as the WS have been fleshed out to be the fast on the ground ones, with not only a preponderance of bike units of all flavors, but bonuses for moving fast as you mentioned. 

 

For me, part of the design issue is the lack of nuance with the Initiative system. It's swing-last with a PF/TH or swing first with a Paragon Blade or other AP2-at-Initiative weapon and the higher the better. I would personally love to the design space of things like the -1I scythes that DG get expanded and explored more, but I'm not holding my breath. 

 

*Aside

Hidden Content

...we all know how armies "really" play on the tabletop. 

 

The issue I have with the Sangy + Dawnbringers + DoR combo is that it's very good, but you take apart those elements and it falls apart quite quickly. The combo actually holds the Legion back b/c everyone can just point to it and say "see? They're good/too good/OP/whatever" but then if you take Dawnbringers just on their own, or DoR without the special units. And you also look at how the Legion's elements work together, and it's an almost handicapping logic to it. Is there any other Legion that is as pigeonholed to a single RoW? Perhaps WS with Chogorian Brotherhood? 

 

I also play IW and the variations that work for IW seem vastly more so than BA b/c of their rules interact with each other: Pert's style of play and bonuses allow for more flexibility overall, whereas with Sangy if you're not using him with jump pack melee units, than you miss out on his army-buffing opportunities, and if you're running jump pack melee units you're either bringing Dawnbringers or Assault Marines or both. Thus, logically, you might as well go DoR. 

 

FWIW, I'm not saying BA are in a bad spot at the moment, I just know from the experience of 7th Ed overall that armies that are so constricted in how to get them "good" tend to suffer overall. 

 

Personally, I would spread things out a bit and make DoR more about Deep Striking well and have a third RoW that was more about the +1I and such, but that's more of a wishlist thing. 

 

[The Scorpion]

 

 

@indefragabal you know you can always...not use your primarch and day of revelation right? Like change up the army comp and rite to be less predictable, while still retaining some great special units and legion rules? I get that these armies are expensive and it takes time to collect and paint, but expand the focus off deepstriking turn 1 lol.

 

On the topic of scars and ec and speed.

 

The ec rules don't make them particularly fast; crusader gives you a small boost to speed, but most of their units want to get in position to charge via assault vehicle, not slog it up. They do have a ton of deployment options from maru skara and master of ambush off fulgrim. Their speed is a result of needing to charge to have any value in their trait or majority of special units.

 

The scars on the other hand are actually fast and are incentivised to move at full speed. Their main rite makes you fill up on outriders and jetbikes, and also gives hit and run, their trait gives reroll to wounds in shooting and combat when you go your full movement. All those fast models you want to take also happen to have some pretty good shooting weapons, so it's not all about driving right into combat.

Oh I absolutely know you don't have to go mono-build with an army. However*....

 

As for EC/WS: I guess the comparison I was making was that EC have for quite a while been the ones that are fast in combat (highest initiative all around typically), both fluff and crunch, where as the WS have been fleshed out to be the fast on the ground ones, with not only a preponderance of bike units of all flavors, but bonuses for moving fast as you mentioned.

 

For me, part of the design issue is the lack of nuance with the Initiative system. It's swing-last with a PF/TH or swing first with a Paragon Blade or other AP2-at-Initiative weapon and the higher the better. I would personally love to the design space of things like the -1I scythes that DG get expanded and explored more, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

*Aside

Hidden Content

...we all know how armies "really" play on the tabletop.

 

The issue I have with the Sangy + Dawnbringers + DoR combo is that it's very good, but you take apart those elements and it falls apart quite quickly. The combo actually holds the Legion back b/c everyone can just point to it and say "see? They're good/too good/OP/whatever" but then if you take Dawnbringers just on their own, or DoR without the special units. And you also look at how the Legion's elements work together, and it's an almost handicapping logic to it. Is there any other Legion that is as pigeonholed to a single RoW? Perhaps WS with Chogorian Brotherhood?

 

I also play IW and the variations that work for IW seem vastly more so than BA b/c of their rules interact with each other: Pert's style of play and bonuses allow for more flexibility overall, whereas with Sangy if you're not using him with jump pack melee units, than you miss out on his army-buffing opportunities, and if you're running jump pack melee units you're either bringing Dawnbringers or Assault Marines or both. Thus, logically, you might as well go DoR.

 

FWIW, I'm not saying BA are in a bad spot at the moment, I just know from the experience of 7th Ed overall that armies that are so constricted in how to get them "good" tend to suffer overall.

 

Personally, I would spread things out a bit and make DoR more about Deep Striking well and have a third RoW that was more about the +1I and such, but that's more of a wishlist thing.

 

In my opinion, the best RoW for Sangy and the Dawnbreakers is not DoR, but the vanilla "Angel's Wrath", since it grants them Hit & Run, allowing them to benefit from charge bonuses multiple times.

[The Scorpion]

I agree that DoW is an ugly RoW though: it pushes armies to be jump-pack centric, and as a result you rarely see other BA builds on the table.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The EC's main flaw is that the initial 4 legions (SoH, death guard, world eaters and EC) were designed during 5th edition where you could run and charge with fleet and charge from outflank/infiltrate/scout. Black Reaving for SoH is especially hampered by being designed around that stuff, but Maru Skara comes 2nd. And then needing to charge with everything to even get a legion trait.

 

In terms of blood angels and rites of war, I agree the jump pack units are pretty insane points, and then you might as well take DoR since it has such good synergy. But the legion doesn't become bad without day of revelatio, or even its special units; the trait is very, very relevant. Sanguinius' biggest strength is his ability to basically win any combat, by himself, on the charge; the math works out to anything not stubborn/fearless will break and be swept by him. The jump pack thing is a bonus. He's very similar to angron in that regard.

 

In terms of legion needing to take a certain rite to get the most out of its mechanics? World eaters with berserker assault and night lords with terror assault. Both of those have way better overall synergy with the legion rules and units than DoR. Ironically, white scars are extremely flexible with their legion trait; chogorian brotherhood just incentives a specific and iconic build.

[b1soul]

This gets me excited for another EC vs. WS confrontation written by Wraight

[The Scorpion]

 

 

...I’m a big Blood Angels guy, so I actually find too many faults with their current setup. Sangy+ Dawnbringers + DoR is indeed a helluva combo, but BA are kind of a one-trick pong currently in 30k: that precise setup is the single basket holding all the eggs to the point that every single BA 30k player has it and everyone who has or ever will fight against BA is prepared for it.

Yeah, I don't know anyone that is completely happy with how their favourite Legion is represented by the rules. I saw SW and WS players complain when they got their rules and in my mind they have some of the very best LA rules and wargear. My main army is Alpha Legion and it's generally accepted that they have some pretty good rules, but I'm still not 100% happy with them.

 

I can appreciate that it could be frustrating being a one trick pony with the BA, but the EC are a no trick pony... The best way to write an EC list is to write a generic Legion Astartes list and forget about the EC specific rules (except for spears on sergeants and some Consuls). I would absolutely love to take Day of Revelation as a Row. As an outsider, I'd love to have the BA rules.

 

At least with the BA their one trick is very fluffy/appropriate and is a very good trick.

 

 

SW have flavourful fluffy rules, but almost no way to make them work with one another.

 

Do you want a 'Pale Hunters' list with outflanking grey slayers? The go Hvarl or go home, because the unique WT table of the wolves is not only filled with a pitiful lack of synergit traits, but prevents you from taking WT from any other table, including the strategic one.

Edited August 14, 2020 by The Scorpion

[b1soul]

A bit off topic, how does Hvarl play on the tabletop? More of a character-slayer or a beatstick?

 

Frankly, I was hoping for Skarssensson, Ogvai, or Lord Gunn from Inferno.

[SixOfOne]

A bit off topic, how does Hvarl play on the tabletop? More of a character-slayer or a beatstick?

 

Frankly, I was hoping for Skarssensson, Ogvai, or Lord Gunn from Inferno.

 

Overall, Hvarl is a pretty good generalist in my opinion. He's probably best used for killing more elite infantry or characters to make best use of PE: Infantry and his S6 AP 2 at I5, but he does give the PE: Infantry in a bubble and 3 units scout, so there's some tactical application there. He would definitely need (to get the most use of him as well) a bodyguard though. Best use is keeping him close to 3 scouting melee focussed units, and pointing him at something good to kill. Either that or keep him next to 3 plasma tactical support squads?

[Gorgoff]

I guess he'd be very good in a blob of terminators with some combi-weapons. With scout they should be able to hit something quite hard turn one, no?

[The Scorpion]

I still think the "scout 3 units" thing should've been a WT and not a special character skill.

 

But we're getting off topic. Back to Qin Xa.