Fixing Lucius

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So any thoughts on how to make Lucius worth taking? I love the model I have done for him but for his points he just seems so fragile and not that great in terms of killing power to normal kitted out lords.

[RolandTHTG]

I think he's a good substitute for a babysitter/support Lord. Compared to regular Lord with powerfist, at the same cost he's got better shooting and consistent 2 damage. He's going to be good at taking out flanking regular primaris squads, especially if you put a VotLW on him.

[Marshal Loss]

The easiest way to fix Lucius would be to remove him from the book and replace him with Eidolon.

 

:P

 

I'd like to see:

• Lucius' 5++ improve to a 4++ (or even a 3++) in close combat to represent his agility, like Fulgrim in 30k
• His sword improved. Even just adding +1S to it would help massively. It is a powerful relic after all.

Other than that, he's actually not shabby. His WT sucks, but Lucius is pretty cheap given what he contributes to an EC army. I do agree that he doesn't feel at all like a legendary duelist though.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I think he's a good substitute for a babysitter/support Lord. Compared to regular Lord with powerfist, at the same cost he's got better shooting and consistent 2 damage. He's going to be good at taking out flanking regular primaris squads, especially if you put a VotLW on him

That's what I thought last edition too, but with the way detachments now work I'm not sure that role still exists.

I think the issue for me is also I'm thinking a basic lord on foot with a power sword and plasma pistol can be far better for the same cost if they take distortion.

I think Marshall Loss put it best, he just doesn't feel like anything his fluff would suggest.

[Evil Eye]

I'd love to have his resurrection trait given rules of some form. Maybe if Lucius is killed in close combat, roll a D6- on a 6, the model that removed his last wound is removed and Lucius is placed back on the table?

[Special Officer Doofy]

I'd love to have his resurrection trait given rules of some form. Maybe if Lucius is killed in close combat, roll a D6- on a 6, the model that removed his last wound is removed and Lucius is placed back on the table?

That would be so cool! I like the idea. He needs 4++ like normal Lords too.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

 

I'd love to have his resurrection trait given rules of some form. Maybe if Lucius is killed in close combat, roll a D6- on a 6, the model that removed his last wound is removed and Lucius is placed back on the table?

That would be so cool! I like the idea. He needs 4++ like normal Lords too.

 

That's the biggest thing that puts me off him, he was 2+/5++ then it could be okay, but as it is I just don't think he has the staying power to really get to attack anytime other then the turn he charges as I imagine the enemy will use counter attack to put him down first.

[Are Verlo]

I agree.

Lucius is a bit vulnerable. As of now he is portraited as a master duelist and yet I would never send him against anyone who actually can fight.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I agree.

Lucius is a bit vulnerable. As of now he is portraited as a master duelist and yet I would never send him against anyone who actually can fight.

I mean I would say that is an issue for most chaos characters atm, especially against Loyalists.

[Hathor42]

Well when marines get the dex his master crafted sword will at least go up to +1 str. His ability usually takes awhile the guy who kills him doesn't immediately transform back into Lucius. I like his old rules when his attacks would go up depending on the WS of the enemy.

[MegaVolt87]

I would up his dmg, not his tank IMO. Add an extra +1 dmg on sword, roll in the +1 S bonus to power swords and exploding 6's as mortal wounds on sword. His whole thing is deadly duellist, he gets a res when he is defeated, he shouldn't be any more tanky than he is, just more scary in melee. 

[Marshal Loss]

I would up his dmg, not his tank IMO. Add an extra +1 dmg on sword, roll in the +1 S bonus to power swords and exploding 6's as mortal wounds on sword. His whole thing is deadly duellist, he gets a res when he is defeated, he shouldn't be any more tanky than he is, just more scary in melee. 

He should be reasonably durable when he's fighting in hand to hand though, albeit still a glass cannon - it's a really tricky balance to hit simply because everything in 40k does so much damage now. Nothing lasts very long. I still think upping his invulnerable save strictly while in CC to reflect his agility & skill is probably the way to go

[MegaVolt87]

 

I would up his dmg, not his tank IMO. Add an extra +1 dmg on sword, roll in the +1 S bonus to power swords and exploding 6's as mortal wounds on sword. His whole thing is deadly duellist, he gets a res when he is defeated, he shouldn't be any more tanky than he is, just more scary in melee.

 

He should be reasonably durable when he's fighting in hand to hand though, albeit still a glass cannon - it's a really tricky balance to hit simply because everything in 40k does so much damage now. Nothing lasts very long. I still think upping his invulnerable save strictly while in CC to reflect his agility & skill is probably the way to go

Since he dosn't really die in his 40k lore, I think him being how he is works survivability wise. I would expect him to be more durable/ self preservatioon concious in his 30k rendition. Your opponent should be sweating when Lucious is in charge range or can get to one of their characters due to dmg, not how resiliant he is once he gets there.

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

I would up his dmg, not his tank IMO. Add an extra +1 dmg on sword, roll in the +1 S bonus to power swords and exploding 6's as mortal wounds on sword. His whole thing is deadly duellist, he gets a res when he is defeated, he shouldn't be any more tanky than he is, just more scary in melee.

He should be reasonably durable when he's fighting in hand to hand though, albeit still a glass cannon - it's a really tricky balance to hit simply because everything in 40k does so much damage now. Nothing lasts very long. I still think upping his invulnerable save strictly while in CC to reflect his agility & skill is probably the way to go

Since he dosn't really die in his 40k lore, I think him being how he is works survivability wise. I would expect him to be more durable/ self preservatioon concious in his 30k rendition. Your opponent should be sweating when Lucious is in charge range or can get to one of their characters due to dmg, not how resiliant he is once he gets there.

 

 

Just because he knows he can never die in 40k doesn't mean he cares nothing for defence. One only has to read his 40k novel & look at other excerpts (e.g. in the 40k CSM book) to see that he doesn't exactly run around explicitly looking to die, and - contrary to the memes - hasn't died very often since the heresy at all. His ego, after all, is based around being the best. Dying = humiliation. And I'm not saying make him a tank, per se, just that should have an actual chance of surviving when somebody else charges him first. Being a duelist does not mean that he only cares about offence. Quite the contrary.

 

If Lucius is just another character who charges, does a ton of damage, but then has no survivability, what's the difference between him and someone like Khârn (who himself has a 4++., and unlike Lucius, definitely doesn't care about defensive combat...)? Honestly, very little. There are already so many characters and units that function like that. Berzerkers and duelists should be differentiated on the tabletop. And so much of 40k is just "damage damage damage" now. It gets a little boring. Let's think outside the box.

 

Further thoughts:

 

A 3++ might be too potent when combed with his ability to dish back mortal wounds but a 2+/4++ wouldn't make him broken. As you say, his whole shtick is that he's a deadly duelist: but if he's a deadly duelist that means he's going to be able to parry and deflect and stay in the game no matter whom he fights. Boosting his invul while in cc for example keeps him fragile but also shows his tendency to drag fights out until he tires of his opponents and is more reflective of his agility & skill with a blade. It would also evoke Fulgrim's 30k rules (whose swordsmanship Lucius aspires to) and mean that you are more likely to trigger his "armour of shrieking souls" ability, which is currently rather lackluster, and yet is also the most famous and recognisable part of the character. Seems far more appropriate to me.

 

edit: to think about this a little more, put it this way: in previous editions you could demonstrate a character like Lucius was a superlative swordsman in numerous different ways. He could have a very high WS comparative to his opponents, high initiative, etc. These days every character hits on 2 + with re-rolls and all EC have ASF to begin with. Initiative no longer exists. That's why, if you get where I'm going, I think that looking outside of just "give him more damage" would more accurately depict Lucius as he is in the lore. Boosting his armour would make sense anyway given that it is his most famous attribute.

 

Mind you, if Lucius could literally come back by killing whoever killed him on the tabletop, I'd be totally fine keeping his survivability as it is. Doubt they'd ever do that though.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[MegaVolt87]

4++ in melee still seems a bit strong. What would the math be for -1 to hit in melee vs a 4++ in melee for tanking ?

[Marshal Loss]

4++ in melee still seems a bit strong.

Curious: why? 4++ is standard for Lord level characters. I'm at a loss as to why you think that would make Lucius too strong. Khârn has a 4++, Abaddon has a 4++, Haarken has a 4++, Huron has a 4++, Cypher has a 4++, vanilla Chaos Lords have a 4++...

 

To answer the other question, -1 to hit is generally more impactful, but can also be circumvented far more easily with buffs/psychic powers, etc. The difference is negligible. You'll hit less but do more damage. E.G. somebody attacking Lucius with a thunderhammer will statistically do identical damage hitting on a 4+ against a 5++ as he will hitting on a 3+ vs a 4++.

[MegaVolt87]

If his dmg and tank both increase in new rules, he will be over pointed most likely. The points increase would be less if he only gets a one sided buff- and in that case I would prefer greater dmg potential instead.

[Lord Raven 19]

How about forcing opponents to fight last or not allowing them to take invulnerable saves on 6s to wound (showing him masterfully targeting the weak point of their energy field/going round their shield)

[Marshal Loss]

If his dmg and tank both increase in new rules, he will be over pointed most likely. The points increase would be less if he only gets a one sided buff- and in that case I would prefer greater dmg potential instead.

 

By that same token GW might over-price (or under-price him) regardless of whether he receives any buffs or nerfs. There's no reason not to advocate appropriate buffs just because you're afraid GW might overprice him. It all comes back to the reality that a 4++ in melee is not "too strong".

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

4++ in melee still seems a bit strong. What would the math be for -1 to hit in melee vs a 4++ in melee for tanking ?

You may not want to look at loyalists with stormshields then :P.

I really like Lord Raven's idea of him ignoring invuns on 6's to wound, as that is what causes most of my attempts at combat to fall flat, is just how how one guy with a storm shield tanks it all and then effortless crushes whoever is against them with a thunder hammer.

[Doctor Perils]

edit: to think about this a little more, put it this way: in previous editions you could demonstrate a character like Lucius was a superlative swordsman in numerous different ways. He could have a very high WS comparative to his opponents, high initiative, etc. These days every character hits on 2 + with re-rolls and all EC have ASF to begin with. Initiative no longer exists. That's why, if you get where I'm going, I think that looking outside of just "give him more damage" would more accurately depict Lucius as he is in the lore. Boosting his armour would make sense anyway given that it is his most famous attribute.

 

Mind you, if Lucius could literally come back by killing whoever killed him on the tabletop, I'd be totally fine keeping his survivability as it is. Doubt they'd ever do that though.

Yeah giving him some more defence would be good. He _should_ have the 4++, probably even in any situation, and he could perhaps have a further FNP (5+) in CC reskinned as "preternatural dodging" or something.

 

I like the idea of him ignoring invulns on 6s to wound too.

Just remind me, what does his whip currently do? The Wyches' ability of forcing people to stay in combat could be cool?

[Are Verlo]

A possible little fix would be causing mortal wounds to CHARACTERS who miss when attacking him.

 

It would not make him more durable, but would make engaging him i CC more dangerous.

[Marshal Loss]

A possible little fix would be causing mortal wounds to CHARACTERS who miss when attacking him.

 

It would not make him more durable, but would make engaging him i CC more dangerous.

Hardly dangerous when everybody and their grandmother hits on a 2+ re-rolling 1's if you're a CHARACTER

[Are Verlo]

A possible little fix would be causing mortal wounds to CHARACTERS who miss when attacking him.

 

It would not make him more durable, but would make engaging him i CC more dangerous.

 

True

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So thoughts on Lucius now his sword is S+1 and damage 2? 
Thinking of using him in a 1000pts list, not as the warlord, but as a cheap combat beatstick/reroll provider, and seems to give more for the role then a duel claw/single fist/combi melta chainswrod foot lord or even a cheap jump distortion lord.