Primaris vs Firstborn: The Math

[Hymnblade]

Marines have multiple long-range choices in the Elites slot as well. Running out of slots is a live possibility in 9th, but most lists aren't going to fill up all 6 Elites and all 3 Heavies before taking anything that can stay backfield.

 

I'm sure there are some lists where a lascannon squad on a backfield objective really is useful and can't be easily replaced, but it's much more niche than using Intercessors to march up the board. The big problem for tacticals is that when you take advantage of their wargear options, their cost advantage over Intercessors nearly disappears.

[Captain Idaho]

Actually, I think Intercessors marching up the table whilst Tactical Marines hold back the objectives further away from the "front line" is a very competitive way of playing. ;)

 

Regarding army lists running out of slots... I'm not talking about trying to squeeze lascannons into lists. I'm talking about the precious 3 Heavy Support slots. You have 3 and filling them up is easy.

 

Regardless, with the above being a moot point anyway, having Tactical Marines holding objectives and providing board control means you get to fill up compulsory Troops slots with a unit that has additional weaponry to support the army whilst it holds objectives.

 

Intercessors hanging at the back holding objectives or table quarters is a waste of their points investment. Their additional attack is wasted and throwing a few S4 shots down table isn't going to make much difference most of the time.

[Minsc]

The beauty of Intercessors (especially if taken in 10's as I do because I'm special) is that they can both advance and grab a mid-objective or hang back on a backfield objective (30" range usually is enough to shoot at something), all while daring anything to charge them.
You better do the combat with my Intercessors first, or I'll intercept and you'll have 27 S4 attacks and 4 S8 AP3 D3 attacks (or more if Veterans) coming your way.



Nothing says "come at me bruh" as a big thunderhammer hiding behind 18 angry wounds. 

 

[Hymnblade]

Actually, I think Intercessors marching up the table whilst Tactical Marines hold back the objectives further away from the "front line" is a very competitive way of playing.

In late 8th, it objectively was not, in the sense that there were few such lists that did well in competitions. 9th may be different; we'll have to see.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Typically lascannons aren’t worth because they are too swingy with the random d6. Edited August 13, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Captain Idaho]

Whilst this topic is titled rather provocatively in the sense it is looking for comparison in a competitive sense, I don't hold to the position one unit is superior to the other. Tactical Marines have a place in my view, as I described, in lists and that doesn't mean I think Intercessors don't work.

 

 

Actually, I think Intercessors marching up the table whilst Tactical Marines hold back the objectives further away from the "front line" is a very competitive way of playing. ;)

 

In late 8th, it objectively was not, in the sense that there were few such lists that did well in competitions. 9th may be different; we'll have to see.

I'm sure 9th will see a different sort of game where board control (having units around the table and not just clumped around your characters) and holding objectives is how to win games.

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly the point Idaho is that Math shows that Cessors vs Tacticals isn’t the case of one is better than the other they are different Edited August 13, 2020 by Schlitzaf

[Captain Idaho]

I meant just the title, which I feel some folk have interpreted as direct competition.

[Schlitzaf]

Vehicles can fire in melee.

 

I agree that storming midfield objectives and being decent in CC is one of the strengths of the Troop slot for marines. Intercessors are much better at it.

Depending what Vehicle are talking about we are talking about a Lascannon Shot at -1 and 8 Bolters shots. Or 12 Assault at -1 and 8 Bolters. On your shooting phase. And 6 Paltry melee attacks hitting on 6’s

 

vs

 

4 Pistols. 12 Bolter, 7 Chainsword. For a total of 16 Shot “Bolter” and 7 Bolters a -1 AP.

 

@Idaho fair. Guess that was semi the intent on my end. Wanted folks see the adversarial title then come in and see that isn’t actually really the case.

 

—————

Also that is one of the reasons I like most about the Primaris vs Firstborn Duality. It isn’t a truly a “vs” situation. And is actually a great moment of gameplay emulating lore. The best SM lists will always be a “combined” arms Primaris/Firstborn, and promoting a tactical/strategic flexibility in list building not rooted on dogmatic adherence to “I refuse Cawl Scum” or throwing out baby with the bathwater “Old Reliable Tactical Squad Alpha, your put to pasture”.

 

Means your severly limited in a tactical sense but also its a repudiation/misunderstanding of Codex Astartes. Which is not simply “Here is Good Old Way, follow it or here”, but always been about tactical flexibility. And is a living documents as chapters add there experiences to it and there sage wisdom.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Schlitzaf

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah the best appproach is a mix - for example there’s no Primaris equivalent to the Smash Captain... and nowadays five man tactical with plasma/combi-plasma plus powerfist is super hot.

[Dracos]

Two wound Firstborn. So the point of Primaris is what now?

 

 

BTW: All those saying Firstborn were doomed to Legends .... wipe your tears away and get back in the game. :)

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Two wound Firstborn. So the point of Primaris is what now?

 

 

BTW: All those saying Firstborn were doomed to Legends .... wipe your tears away and get back in the game.

 

 

Copyright. Same as it's always been. Maybe once we see Firstborn Marines copyrighted Tacticals can get their own silly name as well. 

 

On a more serious note, I'm interested to see if normal tacticals being given this wound bump will make them a more attractive weapons platform again, maybe with the new heavy bolter buried in the squad? Or if we'll see them dumped into a rhino while Intercessors hold the backfield.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Honestly the point Idaho is that Math shows that Cessors vs Tacticals isn’t the case of one is better than the other they are different

The main difference in 8th was that the players that played for money/to win in the most competitive settings did not use tacticals.  We know this very clearly from the BCP data spanning several years.    

[Captain Idaho]

I had great success with "something different" in 8th. I beat some really handy tournament players with a list that had loads of firepower, a Chapter Champion for fun, Sternguard and Tacticals. In a Brigade, no less.

 

8th is like many editions before it - the tournament players go with the obvious and easy.

 

And like many editions before it - I surprised players with lists they expected to be useless.

[Schlitzaf]

I need the redo the math codex release. See how things change. Any suggestions for unit?

 

Currently Primaris

1 5 Man Cessor

2 5 Man Cessors

(Either Variant)

 

Basic Chassis

5 Man Tactical (used for all 4 Tacticals Variants)

 

Loyalists

10 Man Tacticals

10-12 Man Grey Hunters

14-16 Man Crusader Squads

 

Chaos Space Marines

10 Man Dbl Heavy

13+ Man Melee

 

For why not doing Cult Squads, Strike and various Veteran. Is diversity of loadouts avaliable to each squad makes it hard to make a clean comparison. But if people want I could try

Edited August 15, 2020 by Schlitzaf

[Captain Idaho]

Heavy Bolters in units, Plasma Guns in units, then Sergeants with just Bolters, then Storm Bolters and Combi plasma in each.

 

Pretty much because these are the more powerful builds generally due to how easy to get mileage out of them for board control.

 

Lots of work there mate. Sorry!

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Have we seen another data sheet besides the invictor one for heavy bolters? Just curious if they are 3 shots or if the invictor one will work different as a pistol.

[Khornestar]

Have we seen another data sheet besides the invictor one for heavy bolters? Just curious if they are 3 shots or if the invictor one will work different as a pistol.

Not yet, so far that’s the only heavy bolter (or used-to-be-heavy-bolter) we’ve seen.

[Captain Idaho]

I doubt very much it'll be a single shot but it could be a Rapid Fire weapon.

[Lemondish]

I doubt very much it'll be a single shot but it could be a Rapid Fire weapon.

Playtesters in a few discord channels have mentioned that the only change is 2damage. They aren't certain why the Invictor's datasheet includes that point, citing either an error or the less likely bespoke weapon treatment that a lot of Primaris items receive.

 

We shall know for absolute certain come Codex time, but the almost unanimous consensus is that Heavy Bolters are going to be Heavy 3 Str 5 AP -1 D 2 weapons.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The HB is an iconic SM weapon and should absolutely remain at three shots.

[L30n1d4s]

So the question is, do Autocannons go to 3 shots to make them a useful choice, now that HB are also Dmg2? One of the leaks for the Firestrike Turret had the twin Accelerator Autocannon shooting 6 shots, so tha supports this theory.

[Minsc]

So the question is, do Autocannons go to 3 shots to make them a useful choice, now that HB are also Dmg2? One of the leaks for the Firestrike Turret had the twin Accelerator Autocannon shooting 6 shots, so tha supports this theory.

I think regular Autocannons will remain 2 shots, but cost the same as Heavy Bolters; 2 S7 shots or 3 S5 shots; take your pick.

This is essentially a throwback to how they worked in earlier editions: 3x S5 AP4 shots or 2x S7 AP4 shots. 

 

As for the Accelerator Autocannon, that's a different weapon than the regular Autocannon (otherwise "Accelerator" is kinda superfluous), which probably shots one extra shot: 3. 

[Schlitzaf]

So here is the situation at hand and why I applaud GW decision here. Basically a couple caveat and presumptions, I am assumings its 3 point increase for powered armored model period.

 

1) 5 Man MSU Dbl Plasma Squad is basically unchanged EXCEPT the squad got 10 points more than Cessor but more on that in a later post.

 

2) Here is where things get fun. A basic Tactical Loadout say Heavy Bolter (or GravCannon), CombiPlas/Plas is now 210 points. With solid core of weapon mix while Intercessors for 210 are 2 5 Man Squads with Power Sword.

 

Tacticals get shifted to be far more shooty or for those curious:

7 (14 if Rapid) Shots so 0.5 to 1, is 1 WOUNDED Dead Marine

2 (4 If Rapid) Plasma Shots every 2 shots = 1 Dead Marine if Overcharge otherwise, 1 Wound.

3 Heavy Bolters is about 50%-66% to kill a marine depending if moving.

 

Cessors shooting in contrast is 10 (or 20 in Rapid), 10 Shots 1.65 Wounds on Marine. So They are killijg if Rapid 3 Marines.

 

Basically the same for tacticlas but if not overcharging kill around 3 Marines. If they do overcharhe thay number jumps to 4-5. Cessors have sigificantky more punch ability.

 

Now where this leave our other 3 Tactical Class Units.

1) Grey Hunters: Basically become Intercessors ij all but name. 2 Wounds, Chainsword and Bolters your looking at Intercessor Squad from 8th minus Bolter AP. Except like Tacticals we have more specials like Triple Plasma. Alongside things like Wolf Banner.

 

This is a major buff, because Grey Hunters of the 3 Tacticals Equivalents suffered the most from Too Many Toys. They have the ability for 2 Sgts (two have Power Weapons, one has Combi), 2 Specials, and Wolf Banner. Meaning easily half if not more of your squad be CoolBros. While it a 30 point increased into ToyPoints it means Toy are no longer on 1 Wound Chassis. This is an important change for 210 points, you get aroind 10 Guys, Triple Plasma if yoi want, or cheaper Specials like Flamers, take Wolf Banner and Double Power Weapon.

 

Hunters become the best Tactical Style Squad for Midfield.

 

2) Crusader Squad, the 18 point marine/dbl wound is a massive buff to this squad. As a Crusader Squad can mix and match to have larger squads. At 210 something like 12 Man, 8 Initaites, 4 Neophytes, PowerWeapon/PowWeapon. Same wound count but larger squad size ablative wounds to eat multidamage to keep your intaites alive.

 

This be a squad that wouldn’t be incorrect to look at going into more points because it’s ability to play wound shannigans. And the Neophytes as cosy saving measures become worthwhile again.

 

3) Chaos Marines: So as per similar analysis much the same core point applies. These squads benefit the least sense there advantage laid in there upgrsdes but unlike Grey Hunters whom have loads of toys, Chaos Marines have 4 Toys. So in 210 point world limitation its much more limiting. BUT.

 

Those toys like Chain Cannons for example now become alot appealing now with the wound count to be able to take a shot. So when we expand on the limitations they suddenly become better that said. Where there specific type of betterness over tacticals is lessened as a squad not just are tjey better they can do whay you want. In while lacking tje Power Weapons of Crusader Squads you can get 11-12 Man Naked Chaos Marine Squads.

 

A better analysis once tje codex itself drops. But I think these change is good

[Captain Idaho]

For me it's about those weapons firing at targets you might not want to fire Intercessor Bolters at. Strength 5, damage 2 shots aren't too bad at plinking wounds off of vehicles, whilst overcharged plasma guns (which should almost always overcharge, the exceptions being finishing off units) are quite effective at hurting hard targets.

 

Sure, performance isn't massively different when shooting at Marines, but that won't help you kill a Knight ;)