Primaris vs Firstborn: The Math

[Schlitzaf]

Which is a good Idaho as it should be. 

[Dracos]

I would ignore the Invictor when it comes to weapon rules for the moment. It is way too new and untested model to make assumptions concerning it "pistol" at the moment. I think the new vehicle shooting rules makes it a beast in hand to hand.

 

If only the Infiltrator Sgt could get a power fist ;)

Edited August 16, 2020 by Dracos

[Schlitzaf]

The Tactical Equivalents and Intercessor:

Codex and updated rules dropped for all save the Chaos Marine whom talk about a bit more after. So first lets establish our baselines here. Intercessor whom internet see as superior Troop, per firstborn becoming 2W Marines. Is the following-

100 Points

1 Wound Per 10 points

1 Melee Attack Per 5 points

10 AP -1 Bolters in DangerClose or Stationary

 

In optimal range before Doctrines, or Shock that means an Intercessor squads killed deals 3 wounds to MEQ (rounded more like 3.99). Every 65 points we spend should give us an additional dead marine in optimal range. That said.

 

The Basic 5 Man MSU Tactical and Friends is unchanged. Save its same wound count per same points only difference is dbl plasma instead of AP -1 Bolters. In that case for reference:

6 Bolters Attack and 4 Plasma in Danger Close

1 Melee Attack Per 10 Points.

 

With Overcharging your looking at just 3 Dead Marines or 6 Damage vs MEQ. Without overcharging you're seeing 4 Wounds (3.5 to 3.6). Do note however this comparison in terms of output actually got worse first Firstborn. Because the damage output is same as pre-two wounds but now costs 15 more points.

 

At 200-240 Point range things get alot more interesting nowadays.

So establishing Baseline:

1 10 Man Intercessor Squad w/ Melee, Aux (215-230): Looking at Basically same wound ratio, through techenically worse now because taking Power Weapons. You can basically double the above stats and add in a Power Weapon of Choice. So on a core level we are looking at 8 Wounds so 50 points. If curious on exact math.

AuxLaunch: Frag

7 > 4.66 > 1.55 > 0.5

AuxLaunch Krak

2 > 1.32 > 0.88 > 0.44

20 > In DangerClose or Stationary > 14.66 > 7.33 > 3.76

Melee, 18 > 12 > 6 > > 2

Sgt: Sword: 3 > 2 > 1.32 > 1.11 or 3 > 1.5 > 1.25 > 1

 

(if curious with shock 9 > 6 > 3 > 1 and 1 > 0.66 > 0.44 > 0.35 for an additional wound)

 

So around 8 Wounds give or take. So 4 Dead Meq

 

Tactical Squad: 10 Man, Dbl Plasma, and GravCannon. 210 Points (to 215-230 with melee).

DangerCloser or Stationary: 14 Bolters > 9.32 > 4.66 > 1.5

Plasma (DangerClose): 4 > 2.66 then 1.8 (and 1.5) or 2.22 > (2).

GravCannon: 5 < 2.5 > 1.66 > 1.37 or 5 > 3.11 > 2.59 > 2.2

Melee 9 > 6 > 3 > 1

Melee(PowSword) 2 > 1.32 > 0.88 > 0.74

 

The Tactical squad I don't even need to add up but you are looking 3 Wounds from NonCoolWeapons before Tacticals and then post. 6-8 Damage/3-4 Wounds vs MEQ after all said. Looking at CoolWeapons doing 6-8 Damage and then you have your chaff damage. Once again this is interestingly still been true prior the 2W Firstborn. Offensively Tacticals got worse now for this reason. But have a durability comparable to Intercessor Squads.

 

(if curious with Shock, 9 > 6 > 3 > 1, and 1 > 0.66 > 0.44 > 0.35 for additional wound)

 

In total 4 Wounds/1 Damage and 3 Wounds/2 Damage. Then 1 Wound/1 Damage from. Intercessor do around 7-8 Damage while Tacticals do upwards off 11. Tacticals are almost entirely in shooting while Intercessors divided more evenly

 

Through it should noted half of the wounds Intercessor can be safely done at 30' mark and they even be able to pop another wound with an Aux launcher too. So there is that.

 

The other two squads of relavance:

Grey Hunters. 19ppm (If you take Chainsword). Triple Grav, and two Power weapons is 220. (230 if Taking Plasma).

6 Shots in DangerClose > 4 > 2.66 > 1.88 > 1.5

14 Bolters > 9.33 > 4.67 > 1.5

16 > 11.66 > 7.8 > 3.9 > 1.95

4 > 2.66 > 1.88 > 1.5

 

The GreyHunters ability is unparalled at range and melee doing very similar damage if DangerClose and with CheapMulti Damage grav you can take something like Astartes Chainswords and stay cheap. Grey Hunters will 6 Wounds, 4 Damage and around 2 2 Damage Attacks. If you want Plasma Pistol and Wolf Banner also exists as options. If curious with shock

 

(8 > 5.32 > 2.66 > 1.33 + 2 > 1.32 > 1.1 > 0.9 for another 2 Wounds)

 

-----

Crusader Squad. 16ppm* (if equal Init/Neo). 220 Points. 13 Models.

Chainsword > 10 > 6.66 > 3.33 > 1.65

Knives > 12 > 8 (reroll 2) > 9.32 > 4.66 > 1.55

PowWeapons > 3 > 2 > 1.66 > 1.33

13 Pistols > 8.66 > 4.33 > 1.11

 

So dealing about 6 (5.5 to be exact) and basically all of it in melee. The Crusader Squad has advantage of smokescreen for -1 to hit. And its wounds are divided between 2 wound and 1 wound bodies but is about same net wound count as the other squads.

 

(If curious Shock > 2 > 1.32 > 0.88 > 0.74 and 5 > 3.32 > 1.65 > 0.88. And 6 > 4 (reroll) > 4.66 > 2.33 > 0.7. For additional 3 wounds).

 

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Chaos Marines (assuming 17ppm), 12 Man and a PowSword.

Now before I go on this squad will be the best SM unit in terms of ratio before we get into anything else. Being 12 man squad, 3+ and all with 2 Wounds.

 

For 225 (or 230-240 depending on Sgt Upgrades) you get 12 Models, and 2 Heavy Bolters

 

2 HvyBolters > 6 > 4 or 3 > 2.66 or 2 > 1.33 or 1

20 Bolters in Fun > 13.66 > 6.88 > 2.33

15 > 10 > 5 > 1.66

 

(with Shock. 12 > 8 > 4 > 1.33)

 

So looking at 4 Wounds vs Marines and 1 Damage wound. So 6 Damage. If Chainsword funtime.

 

10 Pistols > 6.66 > 3.33 > 1.11

23 > 15.33 > 7.16 > 3.66

2 > 1.32 > 0.66 > 0.22

 

In which case looking at 5 Wounds

 

Shock (0.22 + 10 > 6.66 > 3.33 > 1.65 for additional 2 wounds). Also note DTTFE is not take into accout but basically can add a wound or two and it get a similar increase (through that can spike).

 

 

14 wound Chaos Marines are in the OP.

---

 

For Completionist Sake

AssaultCessors 10 Models. 205-210

10 > 6.66 > 3.33 > 1.65

27 > 18 > 9 > 4.5

3 > 2 > 1.32 > 1.11

 

Looking at 7 wounds and not multidamage making them in raw output > than most other squads.

 

(with shock 9 > 6 > 3 > 1.5, and 1 > 0.66 > 0.44 > 0.35 for another 2 wounds).

 

----

So what does this all mean? Well lets look at the math. No squad here is actually better than its counterparts, each squad has similar durability and has similar output. Its just a question of how it brings that output to bear and the method of doing so. In this way surprisingly.....

 

Its actually balanced mathematically.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Schlitzaf

[Captain Idaho]

The benefits to taking heavy and special weapons isn't about damage per points spent. It's about having 2 wound, 3+ save infantry who can also contribute decent weapons fire for your army.

[MegaVolt87]

The benefits to taking heavy and special weapons isn't about damage per points spent. It's about having 2 wound, 3+ save infantry who can also contribute decent weapons fire for your army.

 

DMG per points spent is an important consideration, even more so now with points increases on everything for 9th. In about two years when CA drops points on us to bring back the higher model counts of 8th ed, then it will be less of an issue. 

[Schlitzaf]

To be clear my point is that per point spent tacticals and intercessors are equivalent and comparable.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think the points are equivalent or comparable, since their roles change.

 

Intercessors are notably weaker holding objectives further away from rapid fire range, because a handful of bolter shots scare no one at that range. They also save you no points because you'll need to find weapons platforms elsewhere to compensate their S4 focus.

 

Do they have a place? Advancing to the enemy side but then 10 Tactical Marines can jump out of a Rhino and place some melta shots into vehicles whilst shooting infantry too. Assault Intercessors can launch an assault.

 

The Intercessors have a place but it seems hotly contested whilst their own capability of contesting the place of other Troops choices is severely diminished.

[Blindhamster]

For me, personally, I take intercessors for their mixed fighting style, they can shoot, and each models basic shooting is better than a tactical marines, tacticals of course are better for shooting other targets thanks to stuff like plasma, but the updated grenade launcher being able to be fired at the same time as the bolt rifle has helped intercessors a bit still, as thats a strength 6 and D3 damage in addition to the units other shooting. But yeah, the thing with intercessors is they can jump into melee and will out perform essentially anything that isn't dedicated melee in a way that tacticals can't.

Personally, I prefer to have my heavier weapons on better platforms than a marine typically too as it means I'm not going to waste said shooting if I do throw them into melee.

Again, I think that comes down to chapter and playstyle preference though. For Blood Angels, I'd say Intercessors are a clear winner over Tacticals, although I'd also say Assault Infiltrators and Incursors are probably as good or better than Intercessors in a Blood Angels army too tbh.

[Captain Idaho]

Blood Angels yes definitely favour getting in close and thus those Tactical Marines might be somewhat subjective in this situation.

[Schlitzaf]

Blood Angels yes definitely favour getting in close and thus those Tactical Marines might be somewhat subjective in this situation.

Its proper tool for proper. Intercessor are Jack of Trades or more accurately JackOfAllEngagements being able to punch and shoot just as effectively while Tacticals are Very Shooty McShooterson. But neither is worse than the other. Just different.

 

Any time someone says “Intercessors Powercreep Tacticals” or vice versa, its emperically false. What is true is that Grey Hunters, Crusaders and Chaos Marines power creep Tacticals. But they not do not power creep Intercessors interestingly enough.

[Karhedron]

Tacticals do still benefit from flexibility. Park them on a home Objective with a cheap Missile launcher. Kit them out for taking on other MEQs with Plasma, Combi-plas and Power Fist. Flamers for horde control etc.

 

I do like the ability to put a few anti-tank weapons in general purpose squads. It means that a few lucky hits on my dedicated anti-tank squads doesn't leave me completely helpless against large targets. Tactical squads are far from the only unit that can dual purpose in this way but are one of the easiest since you are likely to want some ObjSec Troop units anyway.

[Schlitzaf]

Yeah. But there flexibility is in there weapons and ultimatelt shooting. Tacticals don’t melee well ultimately. (Interesting Fists(&Hammers) vs PSwords do the same wound count (1) but Fists&Hammers do double/more damage)

[Waking Dreamer]

This recent analysis video (from 9Ed playtesters) maybe of some interest:

 

 

They definitely bring up points discussed in this thread as well.

[Captain Idaho]

Cool I'll check that out. Interested in what they say about Attack Bikes compared to Eradicators, because I'm the only one who seems to have mentioned it... so I'm either wrong or no one cares about Firstborn ;)

 

I kid.

[Volt]

I think one of the strongest things about firstborn is actually Razorbacks. Razorbacks can pack lascannons so your squads don't need to. This means that the 5 man objective grabbers than pack duplicate special/combi weapons for a significant punch to synergize for their goal in the game. 2 plasma guns, meltaguns, or flamers allows you to tool the five man squad to surgically take on the list you're fighting while not sacrificing AV counters at all. You can even pull a fish of fury style tactic where you dump the Tacs behind a wall of razorbacks to block charges while the marines let loose or snatch objectives.

[Schlitzaf]

Agreed Volt, I didn’t discuss Razors here sense looking the relationships and dispelling myth about Firstborn being creeped by Primaris (or vice versa). And I’ve always been the opanion if your msu’ing 5 Man. You run Razor backs. But fair point is fair.