Gap between Primaris and CSM's

[TorvaldTheMild]

This isn't a moaning thread its just basically a fed up one.  CSM's are no longer nemesis' to Space Marines, we've become a joke and I've kinda of given up playing or hobbying, granted I have had an illness but I also have just lost a passion for the game.  I've lost my loyalists as Primaris aren't my thing, its not why I got into SM's and now CSM's are just pretty :cussing , so its a double wammy for my two favourite factions.  Anyone else feel the same?  Basically 40k is no longer the game I remember or fell in love with, maybe I'm just an old fart.

Edited August 11, 2020 by TorvaldTheMild

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I've felt like Chaos wasn't doing much marine wise since early 8th. That said, I think this will change when we get our 9th ed book. From the various rumors and leaks coming out, it looks like GW is going to catch other factions up to the new standard set by SM, and also address the fundamental problems with the MeQ statline in 8th.

 

The question is, how long will we have to wait...

[TorvaldTheMild]

I've felt like Chaos wasn't doing much marine wise since early 8th. That said, I think this will change when we get our 9th ed book. From the various rumors and leaks coming out, it looks like GW is going to catch other factions up to the new standard set by SM, and also address the fundamental problems with the MeQ statline in 8th.

 

The question is, how long will we have to wait...

I hope so but I'll believe it when I see it.  Its GW after all.

Edited August 11, 2020 by TorvaldTheMild

[Marshal Loss]

Sorry to hear you feel this way. The future isn't necessarily bleak though, and I say that as a regular GW critic. As DD mentions right now you can see the possibility in the N&R forum that Terminators are going to go to 3W. Logically that may well mean 2W CSM which would be a huge step back towards parity with our spoiled cousins. We're at the start of the new edition and the imbalance between loyalists & traitors (&, more broadly, the dominance of loyalist SM over the entire game) is glaringly obvious. The release of the new SM book in October will probably give us some clues as to how we're going to be treated this edition but ultimately it will of course come down to our own 9th book, which I wouldn't expect to be far off at all.

 

As for how I personally feel about it, I'm cautiously optimistic. Time will tell if GW have finally learned their lesson. At the very least, they had better give me some thrice-damned Noise Marines...

[TorvaldTheMild]

Sorry to hear you feel this way. The future isn't necessarily bleak though, and I say that as a regular GW critic. As DD mentions right now you can see the possibility in the N&R forum that Terminators are going to go to 3W. Logically that may well mean 2W CSM which would be a huge step back towards parity with our spoiled cousins. We're at the start of the new edition and the imbalance between loyalists & traitors (&, more broadly, the dominance of loyalist SM over the entire game) is glaringly obvious. The release of the new SM book in October will probably give us some clues as to how we're going to be treated this edition but ultimately it will of course come down to our own 9th book, which I wouldn't expect to be far off at all.

 

As for how I personally feel about it, I'm cautiously optimistic. Time will tell if GW have finally learned their lesson. At the very least, they had better give me some thrice-damned Noise Marines...

I'm not even a GW critic until lately I mostly either loved or understood what they did, but I started playing since 2nd edition and it is literally not the game or hobby it once was.  I don't believe that GW will increase the stats of CSM's.  What they did when Primaris came along was deliberate, Primaris came at the same time as CSM were updated and they decided to leave CSM's as they are, it was a conscious decision. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by TorvaldTheMild

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I'm the only active Khorne player at my LGS, and the guys regularly get on me about expanding my collection into CSM. I've always said I'll consider converting some Berserkers if they ever hit 2 wounds, and if they get an updated kit of their own I'll build 2,000 of WE. 

 

As we head into 9th, my wallet is getting nervous.

[Llagos_Tyrant]

As others have said, the rumours about Terminators going to 3W and rumours about CSM going to 2W are very encouraging for CSM players.

 

I think a big part of the experience of the game can also be who you play with. Maybe there are more players of firstborn Space Marines you could play with, and if you and the other players are finding games feel one sided, some players could be open to playing with handicaps (maybe CSM have extra points or PL to play with). It is frustrating to have to work outside of the rules sometimes, but I think everyone recognizes that SM have been getting so much love that it isn't a close contest for the 2nd top faction. SMs are just far and away incredible at the moment. That said, some of these options may not be available if your local gaming group is more competitive.

 

I do think we'll be in a better position when the CSM codex drops, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Emperor's Children and World Eaters dedicated releases this edition either. Both of those could offer a lot of fun and playability to CSMs. Rumours about Traitor Guard are also continuing to go around, so maybe they'll be on the way too. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

I'm the only active Khorne player at my LGS, and the guys regularly get on me about expanding my collection into CSM. I've always said I'll consider converting some Berserkers if they ever hit 2 wounds, and if they get an updated kit of their own I'll build 2,000 of WE. 

 

As we head into 9th, my wallet is getting nervous.

I collect WE's and Khorne Daemons as well.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I want to believe with the precedent being set by the new Marine and necron codex of sub factions having a two-pronged trait and a mono bonus that chaos space marines (and every other faction) will get a similar treatment with their codexes. That will help.

 

Also if the rumor is true and terminators are going to 3W, that will help. I won't believe the 2W cult or basic marine rumor, that seems like setting oneself up for disappointment (although I'd love to be wrong).

 

It's not all doom and gloom for chaos marines just yet. If the codexes come out and they are still trash then I might take another break, but I don't think that will be the case.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I want to believe with the precedent being set by the new Marine and necron codex of sub factions having a two-pronged trait and a mono bonus that chaos space marines (and every other faction) will get a similar treatment with their codexes. That will help.

 

Also if the rumor is true and terminators are going to 3W, that will help. I won't believe the 2W cult or basic marine rumor, that seems like setting oneself up for disappointment (although I'd love to be wrong).

 

It's not all doom and gloom for chaos marines just yet. If the codexes come out and they are still trash then I might take another break, but I don't think that will be the case.

If they don't change the stats then there is no hope.  We've been playing long enough to know that.  I mean two wounds means another marine unless the weapon is D2 or more and even then they have to hit, wound and save to get it, they'd have to buff our offensive abilities to ridiculous proportions to make up for that.

Edited August 12, 2020 by TorvaldTheMild

[Brom MKIV]

I highly doubt csm will go 2w. Heres how I see it..

 

SM are meant to be 'more elite' than chaos. By this I don't simply mean 'better' or 'more skilled' or anything like that. I mean from a game design standpoint.. they cost more and on a model per model basis they have superior stats due to wounds and weapons. However GW has seen fit to make chaos the horde version of meq. Well whatever I can work with that, just give me the right tools.

 

With that said the tools I'm talking about would be 3w chaos terminators- with 4++ ups base, 2w warp talons etc etc, and maaaaybe even 2w cult troops. To me this would be a decent and understandable game design and would go a ways to equalize the factions. The downside is everyone and their mother and her dog WILL be bringing anti peq weaponry. AND we would basically just be writing off the bog standard csm trooper. But that said even a slight change here and there could keep them alive. For example assault reaper chain cannons and different legion traits might be enough to do it. 

 

Just some thoughts..

Edited August 12, 2020 by Brom MKIV

[TorvaldTheMild]

I highly doubt csm will go 2w. Heres how I see it..

 

SM are meant to be 'more elite' than chaos. By this I don't simply mean 'better' or 'more skilled' or anything like that. I mean from a game design standpoint.. they cost more and on a model per model basis they have superior stats due to wounds and weapons. However GW has seen fit to make chaos the horde version of meq. Well whatever I can work with that, just give me the right tools.

 

With that said the tools I'm talking about would be 3w chaos terminators- with 4++ ups base, 2w warp talons etc etc, and maaaaybe even 2w cult troops. To me this would be a decent and understandable game design and would go a ways to equalize the factions. The downside is everyone and their mother and her dog WILL be bringing anti peq weaponry. AND we would basically just be writing off the bog standard csm trooper. But that said even a slight change here and there could keep them alive. For example assault reaper chain cannons and different legion traits might be enough to do it. 

 

Just some thoughts..

2 wound cultists but you are against 2 wound CSM???

[Aeternus]

 

I highly doubt csm will go 2w. Heres how I see it..

 

SM are meant to be 'more elite' than chaos. By this I don't simply mean 'better' or 'more skilled' or anything like that. I mean from a game design standpoint.. they cost more and on a model per model basis they have superior stats due to wounds and weapons. However GW has seen fit to make chaos the horde version of meq. Well whatever I can work with that, just give me the right tools.

 

With that said the tools I'm talking about would be 3w chaos terminators- with 4++ ups base, 2w warp talons etc etc, and maaaaybe even 2w cult troops. To me this would be a decent and understandable game design and would go a ways to equalize the factions. The downside is everyone and their mother and her dog WILL be bringing anti peq weaponry. AND we would basically just be writing off the bog standard csm trooper. But that said even a slight change here and there could keep them alive. For example assault reaper chain cannons and different legion traits might be enough to do it. 

 

Just some thoughts..

2 wound cultists but you are against 2 wound CSM???

 

I believe they mean cult troops as in berzerkers/plagues/rubrics/noise marines

Edited August 12, 2020 by Aeternus

[Special Officer Doofy]

Edit: Aeternus beat me to it haha. Edited August 12, 2020 by Putrid Choir

[Khornestar]

What do we want this thread to be about? I think we can all commiserate with our frater to a certain degree that the faction just doesn’t feel right and maybe hasn’t for a while, especially compared to loyalists. I think most other factions might feel similarly.

 

I echo the optimism and hope that 9th will be something better, both a revisiting of true veterans of the long war like terminators being bumped to 3 wounds as well as a breath of fresh air where we see some really interesting rules and mechanics.

 

As far as wishlisting, I humbly request we steer away from that.

 

Torvald, returning to the game/hobby, is there stuff you can assemble and paint to bridge the gap between now and when we get our codex? I started working on my own massive pile of shame while I wait, maybe hoping to at least get some games in so I can start getting a hang of the new cover and unit coherency rules.

 

It ain’t all bad. Hopefully you’ve got a decent group of gamers/friends to enjoy the hobby with, and it isn’t all getting smashed by the current cheese. In certain matchups I’m confident we can still throw down and have a good game.

[Brom MKIV]

Well said Juggernut!

 

And yes I mean the cult marine troops not cultists.

 

My point is to realize the design that gw has for the two factions. We feel our individual troops are or should be equal 1 for 1. I believe this is not intended. Doesn't mean we can't be equal or better on a list basis though.

 

Or i.e. we are horde meq they are msu meq.

[Irate Khornate]

I would say our base csm troop is going to stay at one wound. Chosen and Cult troops might hop to two, but the firstborn unfortunately are going to be held back by their non primaris counterparts

 

If Chaos Terminators jump to 3 wounds I have this strange feeling that I'll get 3 sets converted and painted just in time for GW to announce that World Eaters get their own unique terminators. Then I shall proceed to cackle like a mad man and order 3 more sets for pure Kharnage.

[Snazzy]

I'm ok with the gap.  Just acknowledge it in the points.

[TorvaldTheMild]

What do we want this thread to be about? I think we can all commiserate with our frater to a certain degree that the faction just doesn’t feel right and maybe hasn’t for a while, especially compared to loyalists. I think most other factions might feel similarly.

 

I echo the optimism and hope that 9th will be something better, both a revisiting of true veterans of the long war like terminators being bumped to 3 wounds as well as a breath of fresh air where we see some really interesting rules and mechanics.

 

As far as wishlisting, I humbly request we steer away from that.

 

Torvald, returning to the game/hobby, is there stuff you can assemble and paint to bridge the gap between now and when we get our codex? I started working on my own massive pile of shame while I wait, maybe hoping to at least get some games in so I can start getting a hang of the new cover and unit coherency rules.

 

It ain’t all bad. Hopefully you’ve got a decent group of gamers/friends to enjoy the hobby with, and it isn’t all getting smashed by the current cheese. In certain matchups I’m confident we can still throw down and have a good game.

I had to delete this comment because I'm drunk and my drunk mind read what it wanted to but it was completely opposite to reality.  

Edited August 12, 2020 by TorvaldTheMild

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

The issue I have with CSM atm is that only daemon engine spam lists seem in any way good to me.  The base units that should be good are trash...  CSMs, havocs, chosen, raptors are all too squishy.  Zerkers are basically just disposable missiles you never seen against once you fire them off.  That can be fun but it doesnt feel right.  They are marines still but feel as durable as guardsmen.  

 

I'd like to see all the base CSM infantry goto 2 wounds in addition to cult units.  However that is a big ask for GW which has not done much for CSM lately.  If 3w terminators are coming in addition to new and improved legion traits applying to all units then it might be enough.  At this point i'd settle for that.   If they don't do at least that then the army is dead to me.   

[Doom Herald]

I honestly don't see how increasing terminators to 3 wounds would be beneficial to CSM since loyalist terminators would too. Really, it would just be a buff to Space Marines in disguise. Honestly, I just use D2 weapons as a standard whenever possible and I don't really have trouble with Primaris Marines. It makes things a little less cost effective versus armies with a 1 wound standard, but it's not undoable. DttFE helps too, but making it an extra hit instead of just extra roll would go a long way. I've only managed to get one game of 9th in, but even in the later parts of 8th I preferred fighting Space Marines to fighting Xenos and so far I don't think my army will struggle with them all though I did do a <Legion> switch.

[TorvaldTheMild]

The issue I have with CSM atm is that only daemon engine spam lists seem in any way good to me.  The base units that should be good are trash...  CSMs, havocs, chosen, raptors are all too squishy.  Zerkers are basically just disposable missiles you never seen against once you fire them off.  That can be fun but it doesnt feel right.  They are marines still but feel as durable as guardsmen.  

 

I'd like to see all the base CSM infantry goto 2 wounds in addition to cult units.  However that is a big ask for GW which has not done much for CSM lately.  If 3w terminators are coming in addition to new and improved legion traits applying to all units then it might be enough.  At this point i'd settle for that.   If they don't do at least that then the army is dead to me.   

Exactly.  That's why only daemon engine spam is useful because we are in an addition where we are paying obscene amount of points for 1 wound models.  I'm not being unreasonable, I'm fine with Primaris being better and stronger etc. but 1 wound SM's just doesn't cut it anymore and not just for CSM, for grey knights etc.

I honestly don't see how increasing terminators to 3 wounds would be beneficial to CSM since loyalist terminators would too. Really, it would just be a buff to Space Marines in disguise. Honestly, I just use D2 weapons as a standard whenever possible and I don't really have trouble with Primaris Marines. It makes things a little less cost effective versus armies with a 1 wound standard, but it's not undoable. DttFE helps too, but making it an extra hit instead of just extra roll would go a long way. I've only managed to get one game of 9th in, but even in the later parts of 8th I preferred fighting Space Marines to fighting Xenos and so far I don't think my army will struggle with them all though I did do a <Legion> switch.

That doesn't make any sense.  Buffing termies to 3 wounds will be very beneficial to CSM's that is incontrovertible, but that is just a small issue.  The real issue is power armour CSM.  Saying 'I'll just use D2 on them' is also nonsense.  Oh don't bother giving my guys an extra wound because the enemy will have D2, are you really being serious. I mean its the equivilant of saying 'I don't care about toughness 6 dudes with 3 wounds and a 2+ save because I have a lascannon.  GW when making rules might as well say: never mind making this model 2 wounds, there are D2 weapons, its redundant.  

Edited August 13, 2020 by WarriorFish
Be nice

[nanosquid]

I think DttFE should be an automatic extra hit versus Imperium, but give us the extra swing versus all others. Represents the fury of chaos but their particular focused hated on the loyalists, and also gives us one of many slight boosts to catch up with the mountains of other slight boosts the other factions have been getting.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I think DttFE should be an automatic extra hit versus Imperium, but give us the extra swing versus all others. Represents the fury of chaos but their particular focused hated on the loyalists, and also gives us one of many slight boosts to catch up with the mountains of other slight boosts the other factions have been getting.

But they already have that 1+ attack on the charge already.  That's how bad we are, I mean their Primaris assault troops are nearly as good as our Bezerkers on the charge.

Edited August 12, 2020 by TorvaldTheMild

[Khornestar]

If the point of this thread is just reiterating our belief that primaris are just SO MUCH BETTER than what we’ve got, it will probably have a limited lifespan. Just a heads up. We’ve kinda covered this ground a lot lately.