Gap between Primaris and CSM's

[Special Officer Doofy]

Well just to keep up with the new info

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/365869-2w-veterans/?p=5583199&do=findComment&comment=5583199

 

Looks like veterans went to 2W. Could mean 2W cult marines at least. Not wishlisting, just keeping everyone informed since this topic is a "us vs them" thread.

[The Yncarne]

The space marines’ job is to beat up all the other factions (even other space marines). Each edition fulfills that mission to a greater or lesser extent.
 

if GW elevates other factions to a rough level of space marines via codex creep, then everybody will need to wait their turn. Until then, get used to reality. I know my Thousand Sons could do little to finish off my white scars opponent, but I feel more confident against the other factions I face. 

[Doom Herald]

I didn't say it was ideal, I was sharing what's worked for me consistently in my experience. And I think you need to look up the definition of incontrovertible.

I never said don't bother making cult Marines or others two wounds because I use D2 weapons. I said that I, personally, don't struggle with Primaris Marines when I use D2. I would love to have more 2 wound models for CSM, but lately I've been getting along fine without.

Edited August 12, 2020 by WarriorFish
Unnecessary parts removed

[Khornestar]

Tempting as it might be, responding to attacks in kind is still against the rules. We can do better. Edited August 12, 2020 by Juggernut

[Brom MKIV]

The 2w vets news is good. Not that I want to face them with 2w and s4 hammers now, but I'm reaaaaaally hoping warp talons follow suite. Not to mention cult troops and of course chosen.

 

I don't see why this would necessarily translate into 3w terminators.. EDIT- just caught up on the termies! Wow.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Brom MKIV

[Khornestar]

My suggestion going forward would be to use this thread for ongoing discussion of this awesome news that might or might not (but probably does) confirm our Astartes infantry units are gaining a wound. Maybe even bikers, who knows? No one is required to celebrate, you can still share counter opinions, but please check yourself if all you can think to contribute is repetition about how much you don’t like something.

 

So not only the wound change, but thunder hammers are going to damage 4! Dude. Hammer chosen just gained a new lease on life. Er, ending lives, maybe. Particularly World Eaters, who can then fight twice. Hoooly moly. And hammer lords. Now the 40 points makes much more sense across the power armor world. Still a shame our terminators can’t use them, but who knows? Maybe that lack of option will be addressed as well.

 

2 wound raptors, Maybe survive long enough to shoot twice?

 

I have not been this excited about 40k in a long time. We spent so much time wishing for this exact change, and it might finally be happening.

 

Disclaimer: no, it’s not a magic fix to the entire faction. Even 2 wound marines aren’t super tough to kill, but they’ve just doubled their wounds. That means a lot more than nothing!

 

What do you think?

Edited August 12, 2020 by Juggernut

[Doom Herald]

Tempting as it might be, responding to attacks in kind is still against the rules. We can do better.

You're right, my temper momentarily got the better of me. The only thing I currently take issue with in that regard is that my comment was edited by mods but not his. Maybe it's because I didn't quote him directly in mine, oh well. Edited August 12, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Irate Khornate]

Hmmm. This has left me quite puzzled. 3 squads of 5 man chainfist terminators or 3 squads of 10 man thunderhammer chosen in rhinos. Hmmm....

[Doom Herald]

Hmmm. This has left me quite puzzled. 3 squads of 5 man chainfist terminators or 3 squads of 10 man thunderhammer chosen in rhinos. Hmmm....

1 squad of 5 terminators with red butchers and 2 of chosen, assuming you're running WE.

[Brom MKIV]

Man those chosen would be so much overkill. Cool idea though.

 

I feel like seems msu elite spam is the name of the game for the foreseeable future. Largely due to the meta warping effect of marines. Heres why IMO..

 

Blast is everywhere and puts a real crimp on all but the most serious horde armies.

 

And now from what we know mech seems to have become less durable, or rather more susceptible.. melta rule change, s4 hammers on rejuvenated jump vets not to mention erads and the implications of strategic reserves. These changes might be enough to push horde strategy and possibly even mech out of the meta for some factions.

(On the one had this could potentially allow us to roll under the radar with the fairly efficient daemon engines. Worst case it doesn't and ad mech, knights, us, a few others get hated for awhile until)

 

I'm on a fairly typical setup of DPs, discos, daemon engines, min cultists etc atm.. but I've been feeling like I want to lean into the changes more. To me this means more minimalist approach to HQs- no DPs or discos is what I'm thinking, small elite units such as oblits, even spawn. Daemon engines/FW walkers still feel strong but I'll be leaning into the aggressive side rather than ranged builds. So heldrakes, defilers, ectoplas contemptors and so on. Personally I've been avoiding most static dedicated anti tank going for 1 unit that i can protect. 

 

Anyway just some thoughts. Interesting time to be playing 40k. 

[Irate Khornate]

 

Hmmm. This has left me quite puzzled. 3 squads of 5 man chainfist terminators or 3 squads of 10 man thunderhammer chosen in rhinos. Hmmm....

1 squad of 5 terminators with red butchers and 2 of chosen, assuming you're running WE.

I usually have red butchers on a Gorefather Terminator Lord

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Welp. With Berserkers having a very high likelyhood of hitting 2 wounds, it's time for me to start building WE lists and looking for conversion bits. Alas, bank balance, I knew ye well.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Well let's not count our chickens before they hatch. 3W loyalist terminators will most likely mean 3W traitor ones, but 2W veterans doesn't necessarily mean 2W cult marines / chosen (or vanilla chaos space marines, even though some of them are 10,000 years old and it makes sense). We have been pooped on most of 8th, I'd give it a little for more leaks to come out before people start buying kits and bits with assumptions just incase. I have been one of the more vocal people in the past about chaos being bad, trying to stay positive but not overly optimistic.

[Subtle Discord]

My money is on this transferring over to CSM in an equivalent manner. I suspect the community outrage that would happen if they didn't would force them into reconsidering either-which-way.

[Maschinenpriester]

 

The way they are doing it after the repagaging with the data sheets also makes me think we don't have to wait for a new codex.

[Cheex]

I think there's little chance Firstborn won't all go to 2W. We've only seen Terminators and Vets so far, but extrapolating from Outriders having 4W rather than expected 3W, it makes me think that ordinary bikers will go to 3W. And that means it's likely that all non-Primaris Marines are getting +1W moving forward.

 

But what does that mean for Chaos?

 

I sincerely doubt we'll be getting a FAQ that updates this - it would require updated datasheets, points and power, plus there's also all the weapon stats that have changed. Yes, we got Shock Assault and Bolter Drill when the last SM codex came out, but those were easy add-ons. This would be a codex-level update.

 

I expect that we will not get any updates until we get a new codex, I don't think it'll be an instant update when SM get their book.

 

As far as what this actually means: 3W Terminators puts them in a spot where they should have been from the start. 2D weapons become almost half as effective against them, and random-damage weapons suddenly become a lot less scary. It separates the role between CSM and Cultists properly.

 

Then there's the weapon updates. Heavy 2 Multimeltas, chainswords with AP, power swords with strength bonus, thunder hammers with flat 4D, power fists with flat 2D. I'm just as interested in these as the 2W MEqs.

 

Honestly, I'm cautiously optimistic that we might actually be getting a new codex sooner than later.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Cheex

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

It's been mentioned before by playtesters that the new range of things (they never specifically say what) were all tested together to avoid power creep and insure the next bunch of THINGS was balanced off of one another. That testing started over a year ago. If we take Things to mean the next set of codecies, possibly even the next campaign book, then all of them should be tested, editted, and ready to go.

 

So, with tin hat on head, I'd say it's safe to say the next batch of codecies will see a rapidfire release. Maybe 2 per month? They've tested this sort of pacing through alternations of Sigmar and the marine Supplaments. If it isn't quite that fast it'll be rapid none-the-less.

[Subtle Discord]

Look at Psychic Awakening and you can see the model for these levels of adjustments being done for every faction and in reasonably rapid succession. PA was a non-stop roll out of stuff explicitly intended to include every faction in the game and it doled out a wide range of updates, many of which were quite substantial. True, it didn't shake up stat lines of things not involved, but this will be a codex release wave so now's the time to do it. They really seem to be pushing the 'new 40k' marketing opposed to '9th edition', so that might tie in with a PA style rapid release schedule for the new books. Time will tell, but I suspect many leaks of instruction manual images over the coming months.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I think it could go a couple ways. We may have to wait for all the books to get rolled out over several months, which will cause a huge amount of whining and gnashing of teeth as lots of armies will be very weak until they get their updates.

 

Or, we'll see a global stopgap update come out with stat changes and weapon statline changes for everyone. If that's going to happen, its probably going to come quite soon, as we're already seeing the reboxed rules hitting the shelves.

[Doom Herald]

This might be a dumb question, but what will differentiate Primaris Marines from regular Marines now? With 2 wounds on tac Marines, they have an identical statline to intercessors aside from having 1 less attack and different weapons. I don't see that staying a satisfactory difference between the two to satisfy fluff. I kind of have this sinking feeling that they will go up to 3 wounds, in which case this is all worse since you can no longer kill Primaris (Imperial only) with a D2 weapon.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I don't see Primaris going to 3W. I think the better bolter and 1A as enough to differentiate them.

[BrainFireBob]

This might be a dumb question, but what will differentiate Primaris Marines from regular Marines now? With 2 wounds on tac Marines, they have an identical statline to intercessors aside from having 1 less attack and different weapons. I don't see that staying a satisfactory difference between the two to satisfy fluff. I kind of have this sinking feeling that they will go up to 3 wounds, in which case this is all worse since you can no longer kill Primaris (Imperial only) with a D2 weapon.

And unique strats.

 

Don't borrow trouble.

[Brom MKIV]

Primaris have plenty still. Not to mention they are the basis to progress into gravis.

 

What I could see is primaris heavy and special weapon options opening up.

[Cheex]

This might be a dumb question, but what will differentiate Primaris Marines from regular Marines now? With 2 wounds on tac Marines, they have an identical statline to intercessors aside from having 1 less attack and different weapons. I don't see that staying a satisfactory difference between the two to satisfy fluff. I kind of have this sinking feeling that they will go up to 3 wounds, in which case this is all worse since you can no longer kill Primaris (Imperial only) with a D2 weapon.

 

I strongly doubt their stats will be significantly different to those in Indomitus.

[Marshal Loss]

I don't see Primaris going to 3W. I think the better bolter and 1A as enough to differentiate them.

Yeah, that's enough. 3W basic Primaris would have a horrible impact on the game.