Luther

[Indefragable]

Cousins of the Rock, 

 

I hope I don't step on anyone's toes here by being the one to start this topic, but with the announcement of a novel(la?) about Luther, I can't help but yearn to discuss the character. 

 

My initial thoughts on the book itself are here:

Hidden Content

For all the flaws the DA have faced in BL and GW's hands, this could be the opportunity to pull it all together. Luther is such a core piece of their lore, yet still mysterious in many ways and the very nature of the story's framing device (interrogations over 10,000 years) could be the very thing that shows their (de)evolution and how they go from point A to point B. I'm being perhaps too optimistic, but my own mind spins with the opportunity it presents. It's the perfect way to address all the contradictions* and weird points over the years. More so, the Lion isn't exactly the kind of person I envision sitting down with a biographer, so in many ways Luther is the best person in the galaxy to give us insights into the Lion's mind. 

 

<shrug> 

 

I'm probably hoping for too much, but I'm excited at the possibilities. 

 

*

Hidden Content

Luther lifts his head just enough to see who entered his cell through the threads of his unkempt hair, his suspension chains rattling even from the slight movement.

 

"....now we're wearing green armor?" he remarks with tired bemusement. 

 

I've always found Luther as one of the most intriguing characters in the setting. There is a quote (hopefully one of you have it on hand) about how if not for the discovery of the Lion, Luther basically would have led Caliban to conquer its own mini star-empire. Even though they only have gunpowder at the time. Yea, he's that good. It suggests that Luther was perhaps the most impressive specimen of baseline humanity scene in thousands or tens of thousands of years. He was an organic--as opposed to vat-grown--Primarch, if you will. And the only thing that stopped his ascension was the discovery of an actual Primarch, our boy the Lion. They are one point seen as equals in capability. The fact that they are so often compared to each other only makes Luther all the more impressive when you stop to think about it. 

 

It is an old story to have two friends who are rivals have that rivalry tear them apart. Yet it is an archetype for a reason, and all the more effecting in this case. The tragedy of the betrayal and split. The fact that Luther's ascension was cut short by another through no fault of his own....just as one could say that the Lion's rightful ascension to Warmaster was cut off by the earlier discovery and successes of a certain brother...

 

 

That is the narrative that intrigues me, though naturally how it's effected the I Legion over 10,000 years is a different matter that you cousins are far more intimate with. 

[Marshal Loss]

It's being written by Gav Thorpe. I'd keep your expectations low.

[JJD]

I can't wait for all the dark Angels are heretics lol memes.

 

This should be an amazing story let's hope this novel does it justice.

 

I've been reading Talon of Horus and the desire to paint Black Legion is

strong. I need something to drive me back to my Angels.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I hope they do it justice. Luther is a character in the setting that I really like. I was hoping that we would be able to field him in the HH, but it doesn't seem like that will happen for book 9.

[Indefragable]

I hope they do it justice. Luther is a character in the setting that I really like. I was hoping that we would be able to field him in the HH, but it doesn't seem like that will happen for book 9.

 

Yea I think the issue is that--as far as we know so far--Luther's gang basically sat on Caliban for the length of the Heresy. I think there's stories about them scouting around, starting to establish a mini pocket-empire a bit, but regardless their effect on the actual HH is effectively zip. One could say their non-action was an action in that it deprived the Loyalists of even more desperately needed forces, but one way or another it makes for a less-than-stimulating anecdote...certainly not the kind that would feature as more than a side box in a FW black book. 

 

Again, maybe book 9 will prove me delightfully wrong....

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Expanding on what I wrote on NRA. Any DA book by Gav it is a pass. He is not consistent with his writing and he just wings it. He does no Justice to DA... Just writes tropes and disguises them as plot twists.

I am appalled that he still keeps on writing DA fiction.

[Master Sheol]

It's written by Thorpe... It will be crap...

Thorpe is genetically unable to write a good codex or novel ;)

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

I hope they do it justice. Luther is a character in the setting that I really like. I was hoping that we would be able to field him in the HH, but it doesn't seem like that will happen for book 9.

Yea I think the issue is that--as far as we know so far--Luther's gang basically sat on Caliban for the length of the Heresy. I think there's stories about them scouting around, starting to establish a mini pocket-empire a bit, but regardless their effect on the actual HH is effectively zip. One could say their non-action was an action in that it deprived the Loyalists of even more desperately needed forces, but one way or another it makes for a less-than-stimulating anecdote...certainly not the kind that would feature as more than a side box in a FW black book.

 

Again, maybe book 9 will prove me delightfully wrong....

One map from book 9 shows a large traitor offensive going to Caliban. This is against what we know so far, but it did have my interest.

 

Edit: Adding the map, from Road to Thramas 6

 

From what I see, it would show a large Dark Mechanicum and possibly Sons of Horus/other traitor legion offensive into the Caliban sector. Book 9 was originally to have Dark Mechanicum as a third faction, so perhaps that's what the campaign was.

 

Is 'The Nightmare Passage' mentioned anywhere else? It isn't familiar to me, but it could be from something else. It is in similar font to the other campaign mentioned here, which is The Shadow Crusade, which is the Word Bearers and World Eaters to Ultramar.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Grotsmasha]

It's being written by Gav Thorpe. I'd keep your expectations low.

It's being written by Gav Thorpe. I'd keep your expectations low.

Each to his own, but I have no problems with Gav's writing.

A Novel for Luther is a great idea, and look forward to it.

[Malakye]

+1 for the non confidence in Thorpe, David Guymer would have been my preference, I like how he writes the Angels.

[Lord_Ikka]

Thorpe is very inconsistent when writing DA- sometimes he'll nail the characters and motivations just right, but then screw it up by doing so much "mysteries-in-enigmas-in-secrets" that the novel is just a mess. Plus, having the Lion kill off Nemiel in an angry huff was totally out of character and pissed me off- mischaracterization of the Lion entirely.

[Indefragable]

FWIW, this thread is doesn't just have to be about the book. It can be about the character of Luther overall. 

 

What portrayals, if any, so far, really nailed him?

[Master Sheol]

FWIW, this thread is doesn't just have to be about the book. It can be about the character of Luther overall.

 

What portrayals, if any, so far, really nailed him?

The lore on the codexes

[Wrath of Bruinen]

On the broader topic of Luther...

 

I’ve always felt there was some real potential to lean into the Arthur/Lancelot theme (ruler goes off on a noble quest/crusade, faces unimaginable peril, only to return from war to realise their closest friend betrayed them... sound familiar?).

 

Maybe Black library decided to veer away from that and do something new, and maybe that was the right call, but I can’t help but feel this was a missed opportunity.

 

The tragedy of Arthur is that he is trying to build a better world - as readers we’re positioned to buy into the ideals of the round table, Camelot and the holy quest for the grail, and that makes the betrayal so much more devastating. Depending on the version of the story, we sometimes also get to see Lancelot and Guinevere’s attempts at resistance before eventually succumbing to their romance and betrayal of Arthur. At various points, everyone is trying to do the “right” thing, but it all falls apart anyway.

 

By contrast, with the Lion and Luther, the Lion’s coldness and aloofness, and Luther’s jealousies cheapen the betrayal - it feels inevitable rather than tragic. As a broad generalisation of the fluff, we’ve been given a Lion who is socially blind, and a Luther who bounces between hiding his jealousies behind a forced smile, and a moustache twirling villain.

 

Perhaps it’s all a product of the fact that there’s been little effort to build and show the Lion and Luther’s relationship on Caliban pre-Imperium. We’ve been given glimpses, but I feel like in order to buy into the tragedy of the Fall, we need to see more of their closeness.

 

Anyway, that’s my take. If I were writing the book, I’d focus on the Lion and Luther’s friendship, and aim to do more than “Luther was awesome but the Lion upstaged him and it made him bitter” - it’s an understandable reason for betrayal but not a compelling or especially tragic one. I’d write about a Luther so proud of and committed to the Order that his friend built that he will do anything to protect it. Over time it becomes harder and harder to do that, and his situation becomes more and more desperate, until he turns to powers he doesn’t fully understand. But he doesn’t do it to betray the Lion. He doesn’t do it to get square with the Lion, or usurp the Lion. He does it because more than anything else, he wants to preserve Caliban, so that when his friend returns from his noble war, he will find Caliban just as he left it. He does it for a good reason, but it damns him anyway.

 

Anyway, can 100% guarantee that we won’t get that book. We’re too far down the rabbit hole. Maybe that’s a good thing - the Arthurian legend in space isn’t perhaps 40k (or 30k) enough. Maybe it’s overdone. But hey, the topic got opened up to a broader discussion of Luther and how he’s portrayed and I couldn’t resist - I want a Luther that’s relatable and understandable, not someone mwahaha-ing his way through the dungeons of Aldurukh

[Master Sheol]

It's all in place

Lion/Arthur

Luther/Mordred

Cypher/Perceval

Corswain and the Masters of the Wings as the knights of the Round

 

The Lion sleeping in the Rock/Avalon waiting his return

 

Pity that all this interesting plot is in the hands of the worst BL writer ever, the one that gave birth to the ugly joke of "the Lion is the traitor" while is confermed that he was one of the most loyal ones

[Gederas]

It's all in place

Lion/Arthur

Luther/Mordred

Cypher/Perceval

Corswain and the Masters of the Wings as the knights of the Round

 

The Lion sleeping in the Rock/Avalon waiting his return

 

Pity that all this interesting plot is in the hands of the worst BL writer ever, the one that gave birth to the ugly joke of "the Lion is the traitor" while is confermed that he was one of the most loyal ones

You never know.

 

Also: I don't see CS Goto writing this novel?

[aura_enchanted]

Could be interesting if Luther is also loyal now and that we've been torturing him all these years for little to no gain. And that the chaos gods have simply been using him to constantly distract the dark angels and hunt down fallen that wouldn't completely bow to their majesty or went off the cuff too much.

 

That would be kind of interesting actually, and that Luther is going to be twisted into a new demon form against his will.

 

That would be an interesting plot twist and that the final battle will be to rescue a fallen brother not destroy him it might come across as anti climactic but Luther is simply put insane, in fact he's practically jibbering and foaming at the mouth mindless, likely missing all sorts of unecissary body parts as a result of the Millenia of torture, did he really need that finger or this tooth, what about that hand? He would still be alive just a mangled mess.

 

Luther night literally be just a torso hooked up to life support. What would they do then? Inter him into a dreadnaught?

Edited August 13, 2020 by aura_enchanted

[Berzul]

Could be interesting if Luther is also loyal now and that we've been torturing him all these years for little to no gain. And that the chaos gods have simply been using him to constantly distract the dark angels and hunt down fallen that wouldn't completely bow to their majesty or went off the cuff too much.

 

That would be kind of interesting actually, and that Luther is going to be twisted into a new demon form against his will.

 

That would be an interesting plot twist and that the final battle will be to rescue a fallen brother not destroy him it might come across as anti climactic but Luther is simply put insane, in fact he's practically jibbering and foaming at the mouth mindless, likely missing all sorts of unecissary body parts as a result of the Millenia of torture, did he really need that finger or this tooth, what about that hand? He would still be alive just a mangled mess.

 

Luther night literally be just a torso hooked up to life support. What would they do then? Inter him into a dreadnaught?

 

Ok, am I the only one that wants a Dreadnought Luther now?

 

Just me?

[Skywrath]

I'm going to keep an open mind, and give Gav the benefit of the doubt. The books that I read that he wrote, were fine, even if the DA were painted as villains (without villains there cannot be heroes). As I haven't read a book written by him that I would consider negative, I have little reason to suspect that will change for the worse. But we'll see.

 

@Berzul, that would be awesome!

Edited August 13, 2020 by Skywrath

[UtariOnzo]

To be fair a lot of the issues with Astelan and the whole Dark Angels Are Traitors memes comes from the rather literalist interpretations of some readers, ignoring this was a guy who had worked with *The* Champion of Nurgle to get what he wanted. Not to say Gav didn’t over egg a lot of aspects to ‘raise the stakes’ with regards to the Fallen hunt, but I wouldn’t say I disliked the Legacy series or his HH based works.

 

My main concern is his difficulties in portraying characters beyond relatively two dimensional personalities and staying on plot. A portrayal of Luther across such a wide timeline should show a very complex person, with evolving motivations and views as one I’ve suspected of him, rather than a simplistic good gone evil gone apologetic approach.

Edited August 13, 2020 by UtariOnzo

[WrathOfTheLion]

In a way, Luther is the one who has indirectly influenced the Dark Angels as a Chapter in lieu of the Lion since the Fall of Caliban, as the Grand Masters have made decisions over 10 millennia from information from him.

He's definitely an interesting character, and one that I do hope they do justice to.

Edited August 13, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Lord_Ikka]

As interesting as a Dreadnought-Luther would be, Luther hasn't been tortured during the years, as only the Grand Masters of the Dark Angels know that he is alive, not the Interrogator-Chaplains- he's very much drifting in and out of lucidity and used as a Dark Oracle because when he is mad he will see into the Warp, while when he's lucid he just wants the Lion's forgiveness. Of course, if the Fallen get a hold of him as is rumored, then he might go back to being a Chaos-champion....

Edited August 14, 2020 by Lord_Ikka

[solarisqc]

We have no confirmation Luther was taken by the Fallen, we only know he's not in his cell anymore.

 

It's a posibility the Watcher in the Dark move him out of reach of the chaos invasion that come on the Rock to get him. I don't know if this book will cover the present time, but whatever happen to him, i think the watcher are in part involve. I don't see how Luther can move out of the Rock without the watcher approuval base on all the event where we see how thay can control acces to secret part of the Rock.

[HandsWithLegs]

At the current point in the story I think it would be interesting to play up Luther's personality swings, especially if/when he comes to the tabletop. Fallen already have both the Imperium and chaos keywords, and we know he snaps in and out of lucidity, both curing the lion and professing his sorrow. Basically saying that when his mind is coherent he fights generally for the Imperium and when its not he fights for chaos could be an interesting take on the character

[Master Sheol]

As the writer of the novel is Thorpe that generated that silly "the Lion is the traitor" joke i amore guessing he will do AGAIN the same crap

And we DA players we will hate him forever