Upcoming changes to Marines and implications for Ultramarine

[Paulinus]

I figured we could start a conversation about the implications for the Ultramarines with the new Marine Codex dropping next month and all the recent leaks.

 

 

For me I can see a real and I mean real possibility of a viable and competitive 1st company build. With a mix of firstborn units and primaris.

 

I know we are missing details but 2w vanguard vets and sternguard is pure gold. L

 

I also see a return of more drop pod based lists.

 

I guess it will depend on points.

 

The only problem is any list building we currently do might be invalidated. And who knows what strats the Codex will have. We can still bank on our supplement but the Codex might reveal some interesting changes, additions and removals.

[Karhedron]

Both flamers and heavy flamers are going to 12" range which would make for a tasty BBQ unit in a drop pod. A squad of Sternguard veterans, maybe with a support character in a pod will put out plenty of firepower but will now be markedly harder to shift.

 

Drop and couple of squads and/or combine with some Phobos units for a strong T1 midfield presence. Then on T2 they can move forward to take more ground or attack key units while the Troops behind move up to secure the Objectives and offer covering fire.

[Prot]

It has occurred to me we might be enjoying a very powerful introduction to 9th with our Space Marine armies because of this upcoming codex. 

 

I say I've been wondering this because right now I think we're enjoying some favourable points costs for some units. But if the army sees a fair chunk of wound upgrades and weapon upgrades (IE: Heavy Flamers, Multimelta's), then it could be we see significant point increases. 

 

Vets and Termies with wound increases make them so much more valid... unless as I suggest points go up too much. 

 

Personally I will not be over reacting to -any- changes until most of the codexes are out. If history proves anything, balance is going to be... rebalanced a few times over the next few months (Just look at the FAQs out already.)

[Charlo]

Also let's not forget 8th ed, where Marines had a codex early and were utterly dominant... Until pretty much every other book dumpstered them for ~2 years.

[emperorpants]

I wonder if Guilliman will get a rules refresh. With everything they are changing I wouldn't be surprised if he did. One thing I think is very likely is the Emperors sword gaining the ability to stop enemy units from using Feel no pain abilities on wounds caused by it. It would honestly make sense given the lore involved, and we have seen rules that imply some weapons won't allow fnp rolls. I wonder what else may do that?

[Captain Idaho]

Since we don't know much about the usual Devastators, Assault and Tactical squads rules I won't comment yet.

 

Veterans having an extra wound, with a bunch of weapons getting better for us too (Flamers, Multi-meltas, Power Fists) we will see Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminators on the table on numbers we seldom have for editions past.

 

Those units will benefit from Ultramarines rules immensely, even the Vanguard as they can fall back with Jump Packs and charge using a handy Strategum ;)

 

Storm Bolters and Special Issue Bolters are fabulous anyway, but on platforms with the addition wound that can also hold their own in melee... this is the new hotness.

 

Remains to be seen if Primaris get a boost or not. They don't need it really but comparing them to Classics doesn't look particularly favourable to some.

 

Which I kinda dispute. They still have Aggressors, Eliminators, Inceptors etc which perform their own function. The models are popular and cheaper in boxed sets so they'll always be about.

[Prot]

Also let's not forget 8th ed, where Marines had a codex early and were utterly dominant... Until pretty much every other book dumpstered them for ~2 years.

 

Remember 7th and the introduction of Primaris? Absolutely horrible start for the faction until several changes later. Then... Iron Hands end up with the (allegedly acknowledge) imbalance baked into them 

 

We can keep going in circles on this... just to prove nothing is for certain except change. As someone who's moderated here for a very long time, I'm just trying to temper expectations, and temper the inevitable nerf cries. I'm sure we'll see both.

 

It's so point dependent it's hard to say anything, but on the surface Vet Ultra's backing out of close combat with Heavy Flamers seems nasty. Drop pods become so much more valuable all the sudden (not just for Grav. Amp.)

 

Let's be honest, even the big Primaris fans out there have to be cheering for some sort of resurrection of Termies, Vets, etc.

[Kallas]

Since we don't know much about the usual Devastators, Assault and Tactical squads rules I won't comment yet.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

 

All OldMarines are going up to 2W each.

[Paulinus]

2 wounds. Awesome.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is all good .

[Captain Idaho]

2 wound Tacticals being a thing, especially with 2D Heavy Bolters access, makes Tactical squads very useful as Troops choices.

 

Board control and objective holding there is no better unit for relatively cheap (comparatively) with use of heavy weapons really backing you.

 

Rhino-borne Tacticals heading to objectives is a solid thing now too.

 

Assault Marines are pretty much eclipsing Assault Intercessors for Ultramarines outside very niche assault lists. And we don't much use them either!

 

Devastators are already solid and now they're even better.

[Subtleknife]

I hope there is some trade off for primaris here....access to drop pods.

 

I desperately hope the Assault Intercessor Box has something special in if it is released in multipart format.

 

Also veterabs seem like a better option that the likes of bladeguard now weapon choices, can deepstrike with pods etc.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Subtleknife

[Charybdis]

Fantastic news.

 

I only started playing towards the end of 8th so Primaris are all I've ever really seen other than Devastator squads. Very happy for all of the vets who had armies built from the original Marines.

 

In the handful of 9th games I've played more and more I've been thinking of cutting some of the more powerful and points heavy characters like Gulliman, Calgar etc (aside from Chronus who in a Land Raider is just pure gold!) and vehicles like the Repulsor Executioner in favour of more infantry units and greater board control.

Both Calgar and the big G have been very solid in their own right, but I keep feeling that I'd be racking up more primary points with more boots on the ground and better backline screening. My opponents are starting to actively avoid them and focus their forces on less lethal areas of the board.

Calgar is a little too slow and Gulliman has been exposed trying to get around terrain a few too many times. Given that standard marines are becoming more lethal across the board is the age of characters coming to an end?

 

I can't help but feel that Ultramarines perform better as a gun line army rather than melee, intercessor Ultra's are perhaps the best in the entire game. Not massively impressed with the Assault intercessors are Vanguard Vets a better choice? I can't see myself hurling them up the battlefield like Blood Angels, but I think they could be useful putting out fires where the enemy is massing and breaking through my lines. That movement is just superb. 

 

Even before the 2W news I've been running Devastator squads over Hellblasters.

 

Tartaros terminators with power axes, just beastly! And now the axes have become even stronger!!

 

I'd be very interested to hear peoples views on the best way too utilise Tactical squads and what weapons load outs best serve Macragges finest. 

 

Also what are peoples opinions of Razorbacks over Rhinos? Is the added fire power worth the loss in transport capacity?

[Captain Idaho]

Best way to use Tactical squads, in my view, is to firstly provide a couple demi-squads (5 man) with heavy weapons for holding backfield objectives and spreading away from your main attack.

 

What this does is provide fire support to your army whilst fulfilling objectives scoring criteria.

 

The other way to use Tactical squads is as a support unit, in a transport, to the main thrust of your attack. 10 of them can put a decent amount of fire on a target and provide bodies to the attack. Imagine Sternguard or Terminators being the focus here. That's why there's 10 Tactical Marines alongside them backing them up.

 

Razorbacks are very good at adding firepower to your force and fulfilling the role of transport for something. It's a points saving, essentially.

 

In a vehicle heavy army this is especially good as it is another vehicle to deal with.

 

***

 

Here's something that seems to have fallen under the radar with all the news on Classic Marines...

 

Flamer going to 12" range makes Aggressors and to a lesser extent Centurions very happy bunnies.

[Karhedron]

I have been running Razorbacks throughout 8th (admittedly with Space Wolves) and have been very pleased with them. Their combination of firepower and added mobility makes them very useful for their points.

 

9th edition looks to make them stronger since they can now move and fire and they went up by fewer points than a lot of other units. The fact that their contents are now deadlier is a bonus. The twin assault cannon was always my favourite weapon but Heavy Bolters now look like a legitimate choice. Lascannons are solid if you want more anti-tank but my Wolves tended to deal with tanks by punching them so this was never an area I lacked.

 

As others have noted, one or two vehicles tend to die quite quickly so Razorbacks work best in a list with plenty of other vehicles. Either run 3+ vehicles or run none. 1 or 2 just gives your opponent convenient targets for multi-damage weapons. By the time you get to 3+, you can start forcing difficult choices about which is the greatest threat. The more choices you force your opponents to make, the more likely they are to make a mistake.

[derLumpi]

With flamers going 12" would a pod with Sternguard vets equipped wirh combi flamers and heavy flamer worthwhile?

[Captain Idaho]

Certainly seems good. I suspect Salamanders players will utilise that trick as well.

 

I quite like the Special Issue boltgun. It ties in with the Masterful Marksmanship Strategum and is the cheapest option for the squad.

 

A couple of melta guns looks solid, as does a pair of Multi-meltas in a Sternguard squad, since they can move and fire without penalty in turns 2 and likely 3 for us.

 

In fact, Multi-meltas looks like a solid investment on many platforms for us now.

[Sugarlessllama]

I was really planning on playing a new army for the new edition. But now, I think all these changes might be enough to bring me back to my boys in blue. :D