Biggest winners from the 2 wound marine/weapons update?

[Riddlesworth]

Heavy bolter centurions - particularly IF ones

Assault centurions in raven guard and white scars

Salamanders players

[Khornestar]

Iron Hands 6+ FNP will keep a wider range of units on the table slightly longer, now. 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Juggernut

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

We don't know the points costs yet, right? I would say Vanguard Veterans and Tactical Squads are huge winners since VV were already good at W1 and Tactical Squads saw close to zero play but now may be viable, but that's only if their points are right for their new stats. If Tacticals don't beat out Intercessors when it comes to points to performance ratio, it's still going to be all Scouts and Intercessors.

[Hymnblade]

They said Tacticals will be 18 points, so it's reasonable to assume that other 1-wound models will also go up by about 3 points.

[Mandragola]

Salamanders win even more. 12” flamers mean you don’t need long range marksmen so instead they can take Agatone to buff flamers even more. And of course they’ll love multimeltas with 2 shots. Their average damage also went up.

 

Land speeders might be a good unit. Multimelta and heavy flamer sounds like a good couple of guns to have on a mobile platform. They might be better than invaders.

[Minsc]

I'd say the biggest winners are those Firstborn-units with similar roles/wargear to their Primaris counterparts that now with 2W can seriously compete against said Primaris counterpart.

Vanguard compete with Assault Intercessors; Same A/W, better weapon options and can either take non-Primaris transports or Jumppacks.
They will however most likely cost more than Assault Intercessors even without jumppacks, and aren't troops.

 

Likewise, Sternguard compete with regular Intercessors; Same A/W, better weapons and weapon options, and can take non-Primaris transports.
They too will however most likely cost more than Intercessors and aren't troops. 

The humble Tactical is also a big winner in my book. Instead of 3/7 ablative wounds for those special/heavy/combi-weapons, they now have 6/14. I can easily see myself fielding 10 Tacticals with a special weapon, heavy weapon, combi-weapon and a thunderhammer on the Sergeant now. They don't even "need" a Rhino.

Drop Pods might interestingly make a comeback as well due to Heavy Flamers and Flamers getting a 12" range and Firstborn units (the very same units that can actually take Flamers) becoming more appealing on top of that. I'm actually considering trying out a unit of Sternguard with Heavy Flamers and a couple of Combi-flamers in a Drop Pod for the first time in years. Heck, anything with Multimeltas in a Drop Pod seems potentially powerful now. 
 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Minsc

[Karhedron]

Long Fangs with 5 Multimeltas in a Drop Pod with a stormshield toting Wolf Guard for a bit of protection. They can drop T1 or wait to T2 if you need to clear a landing zone. For 2 CPs they can fire 10 MM shots that ignore the -1 to Hit for moving and shooting and get full rerolls to wound. They can also reroll 1s to Hit natively.

 

Within 12" that is an average of 31 wounds against a T8 target (ignoring invulnerable saves). Even RIS Knights will be badly mauled by that kind of firepower and pretty much anything else will be reduced smoking boots/claws/tentacles.

 

Grey Hunters suddenly look very tasty with 2 wounds and Astartes chainswords. Blood Claws and Death Company will generate an insane amount of attacks and take twice as much effort to put down.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Karhedron

[Medjugorje]

I think Vanguard Veterans could be extremly good. Especially for BT and White Scars.

[GreyCrow]

Tactical squads, massively !

 

Been fielding large Tactical armies (60 minimum) since the new Codex with Ultramarines.

The best part is the staying power for the points and the ablative wounds for the heavy/special weapons.

 

But the big problems of Marines was always 1W on a premium costed model (pts wise). 3+ is great but unreliable like all dice. The extra W gives insurance, and won’t see them melt with weight of dice from Lasguns.

 

Assault Marines become quite serious too now. Dropping 20 of them in the opponents face makes it a serious speed bump.

Ennemies have to :

- Either dedicate 2x the usual anti infantry firepower

- Divert heavy weapons fire towards the Assault Marines

 

But overall the codex just got better as a whole regardless of what’s fielded. Marines were suffering from being vulnerable to anti tank (squishy tanks, infantry relying on armor saves) AND anti infantry (volume of fire of D1 weapons was a good way to bypass the save on a low model count army).

 

Now, the opponent has to spam anti tank (high AP multiple damage) to reliably deal with Marines and the basic dudes became twice as resilient to basic firepower.

[Guest Triszin]

wolf guard I think

 

wolf guard PA, storm shield, chainsword cheap and effective

Edited August 14, 2020 by Triszin

[CCE1981]

The WarCom article said “full fledged” marines, I think it is a mistake to think that Blood Claws will get 2-wounds, certainly possible but not guaranteed.

 

I think Terminators are the big winners here, 3-wounds has vastly upped my Aggressors survivability, Terminators dropping in cover are going to be very hard to kill.

 

Just so many possibilities now, every Marine is a threat that can’t be ignored. They’ll no longer be roll a bunch of dice and remove a unit. Something will survive and tie you up.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Biggest winner: Drop Pods

 

Honorable Mention:  Red Corsair Chaos Space Marine blobs, our new Death Guard overlords, Flamestorm Aggressors (assuming their flamers also goto 12")  

 

Biggest loser:  This thread if IG lasguns goto 2 damage.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Grav Devs.

 

I love my Grav Devs. (I know they're not generally considered very Templar, but I play mine so aggressively that they now have more kills with melee weapons!)

[BrainFireBob]

Marine FA, CSM Elites.

[Blindhamster]

They said Tacticals will be 18 points, so it's reasonable to assume that other 1-wound models will also go up by about 3 points.

i'd think the relative cost increase will vary depending on the base model that gets the extra wound. But they might literally keep it as simple as +1 wound = +3 points i suppose

 

as an example, i realy doubt sternguard will be the same cost (20 points) as intercessors, they have better guns so realistically will be at least 1 point higher IMO. Although i guess some might argue the differece obsec vs no obsec makes it a wash.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Blindhamster

[Galron]

For me its Vanguard Vets which I have 2 squads on back burners due to just not seeing the point. But now they moved up in my queue quite a bit once I finish three coloring my Fire Angels. Kind of at a loss on them though since I was using two five man tac squads in razorbacks as cheap objective holders and takers. Now they will be better at holding objectives but wont quite be so cheap.

 

I think Salamanders made out like bandits despite their tactic nerf. I am still going to be fielding a dev squad in a drop pod, a Sternguard squad in a drop pod and a babysitting captain for the devs(yes it will be a second detachment) and LT for the SGs. An extra wound will rock in this case as they may survive until the second round. My SS/TH squad with the warlord also in TH+SH just got even tougher to kill. The 12" flamer thing negated the entire reason I used Long rang marksmen so yay me there so back to being pure Salamanders and getting the bonus ignoring -1AP and not spending a CP for Sally relics. My back line guys which were tacs with a lascannon or missile launcher took a price hit and I may lose one, but at the same time, the tactic nerf took away their sole reason for being there in the first place, but the ones that remain will be that much tougher :)

 

So all told, Tacticals got a new lease on life, terminators became awesome(especially Salamanders) and drop podded sternguard might survive a round now.

[Mandragola]

If I do go ahead and use any oldmarine units I'll almost certainly make them out of Primaris bodies, because I think they look a lot better. I'm not sure I'll use all that many of them though. I was thinking about some multimelta vets in pods but I don't know if they're really better than Eradicators - especially after paying for the pod. 

 

Vanguard vets do sound like a good option. I could see myself making some out of suppressors with new arms. To be honest though, they're probably not high up the list of units my Crimson Fists would want. It looks like there's a chance that actual suppressors might get 3 shots each in the new codex (as the new turret and invictor both have 6 shots for their twin autocannons) so those and inceptors might claim my fast attack slots.

 

Heavy bolter centurions look almost annoyingly good, especially for Fists. Losing the specialist detachment doesn't feel too bad with the bolters going up to 2 damage each - or 3 damage on turn 1.

[TheNewman]

It makes transport segregation even dumber than it was to begin with.

 

I'm not so sure who wins, but I'm having a hard time seeing a reason to use Hellblasters and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors over their Firstborn counterparts at this point. Non-Gravis Primaris have the extra attack while Firstborn have the extra wargear options, so a Primaris squad that wants to sit back and shoot doesn't have much of a reason to exist. ...although Stalkers do have Target Sighted I suppose.

 

Assault Marines jump out at me, no pun intended. I've argued more than once that Chainsword Bikers were kind of sitting at "Autobolter Intercessor ++", and now Assault Marines with jump packs are kind of stepping up into that same sort of space. The melee of a regular Intercessor with much higher M than an Assault Intercessor, for probably right around the same point cost.

Edited August 14, 2020 by TheNewman

[Mandragola]

It makes transport segregation even dumber than it was to begin with.

 

I'm not so sure who wins, but I'm having a hard time seeing a reason to use Hellblasters and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors over their Firstborn counterparts at this point.

I agree on the transports. Let's hope that's something they get rid of in the new book - or at least let Primaris take 2 spots in a land raider or pod. If a transport can be adapted for a normal marine, a scout or a terminator, it can fit a Primaris marine too.

 

I also agree that hellblasters are not in a good place. Devastators with plasma cannons might or might not be good, but they're obviously better than heavy intercessors. Both are improved by the new rule of plasma only exploding on a natural 1, as it lets them move and shoot without blowing up.

 

I don't agree on the stalkercessors though. They have a vastly better gun than tactical marines. I guess you could argue that tactical marines can have 10 wounds protecting a lascannon or multimelta now but, even so, the 5 stalker shots and extra attack in melee matter a lot.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Maybe that's why the prices of Land Raiders have increased so much. Big boy prices for big boy Primaris 

[TheNewman]

 

 

It makes transport segregation even dumber than it was to begin with.

 

I'm not so sure who wins, but I'm having a hard time seeing a reason to use Hellblasters and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors over their Firstborn counterparts at this point.

I agree on the transports. Let's hope that's something they get rid of in the new book - or at least let Primaris take 2 spots in a land raider or pod. If a transport can be adapted for a normal marine, a scout or a terminator, it can fit a Primaris marine too.

 

I also agree that hellblasters are not in a good place. Devastators with plasma cannons might or might not be good, but they're obviously better than heavy intercessors. Both are improved by the new rule of plasma only exploding on a natural 1, as it lets them move and shoot without blowing up.

 

I don't agree on the stalkercessors though. They have a vastly better gun than tactical marines. I guess you could argue that tactical marines can have 10 wounds protecting a lascannon or multimelta now but, even so, the 5 stalker shots and extra attack in melee matter a lot.

5 Stalkers are mostly wasting that melee potential, but the bigger issue is that the comparison isn't the basic Boltgun vs the Stalker, it's five Stalkers vs four Boltguns and a Heavy Bolter for almost the same price.

[Mandragola]

 

 

It makes transport segregation even dumber than it was to begin with.

 

I'm not so sure who wins, but I'm having a hard time seeing a reason to use Hellblasters and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors over their Firstborn counterparts at this point.

I agree on the transports. Let's hope that's something they get rid of in the new book - or at least let Primaris take 2 spots in a land raider or pod. If a transport can be adapted for a normal marine, a scout or a terminator, it can fit a Primaris marine too.

 

I also agree that hellblasters are not in a good place. Devastators with plasma cannons might or might not be good, but they're obviously better than heavy intercessors. Both are improved by the new rule of plasma only exploding on a natural 1, as it lets them move and shoot without blowing up.

 

I don't agree on the stalkercessors though. They have a vastly better gun than tactical marines. I guess you could argue that tactical marines can have 10 wounds protecting a lascannon or multimelta now but, even so, the 5 stalker shots and extra attack in melee matter a lot.

5 Stalkers are mostly wasting that melee potential, but the bigger issue is that the comparison isn't the basic Boltgun vs the Stalker, it's five Stalkers vs four Boltguns and a Heavy Bolter for almost the same price.

 

Understood. Personally, I don't think it's a clear call one way or the other. 5 stalker shots are arguably better than 4 bolter shots and 3 heavy bolter shots, especially outside of 24". They're definitely better for my Crimson Fists.

 

And while the extra 5 attacks in melee won't be relevant in every game they sometimes will matter quite a lot. I like that I can sometimes tell my intercessors to go and fight an enemy squad off an objective - even the heavy guys. They're a unit that's quite often still alive in the late game when their power relative to enemy troops becomes highly relevant. I can also use them to counter-charge stuff like hordes, which tactical marines are much good at.

 

Of course, Stalkers aren't the only guns you can give intercessors. Auto rifles might be best in this edition, so you can run around. If running something like white scars those (or assault intercessors) look like clearly a better option than tactical marines.

 

Ultimately it's not clear which is better outright, and that's a good thing. It's reasonable to use either unit, in my opinion.

[TheNewman]

5 Stalker shots vs 3 Heavy Bolter shots and 8 boltgun shots, not 4. They're going to be standing on a back-field objective, that's what those squads do.

 

You're right that one isn't really obviously better than the other, but given the choice between an entirely specialist squad and one that is almost as good on the prime target and can still switch-hit into other target types I'm going to take the more flexible squad most of the time.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think it's a little too early to judge because we don't know points or even all of the changes to existing gear. Hopefully the internal balance is much better and in that case the big winners are the players.

[Karhedron]

Having thought about it some more I am going to stick my neck out and say Death Company are one of the big winners here. They already had nearly everything a great melee unit needed. Built-in mobility in the form of Jump Packs, very flexible weapons loadout and access to buffing characters and stratagems. The only thing was that 1 wound held them back and made them a bit of a glass cannon.

 

Now with 2 wounds as well as the new stratagem in Blood of Baal to give them a 5+++, they are just a Cannon! It doesn't hurt that they come with Astartes Chainswords meaning that even a basic DC Marine churns out lots of attacks with an additional AP-1.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Karhedron