Aggressors vs Bladeguard

[_Valten_]

I’d like some assistance please. I’m looking at adding either some Bladeguard or some Aggressors to my UM Successor force.

 

Are they comparable? Are there any reason to lean one way or another?

[Captain Idaho]

The units really aren't comparable. One is a solid shooting unit that acts like a core to your force, the other is the tip of a spear.

 

What's in your force, what other models do you have available to be used alongside either, can you fit in both, what's your playstyle?

[_Valten_]

What's in your force, what other models do you have available to be used alongside either, can you fit in both, what's your playstyle?

My force is a definite work in progress. I’ve got a captain, Lieutenant, Phobos librarian, 2x5 intercessors, 5 infiltrators, 5 incursors, a Warsuit, a redemptor, judiciar, apothecary, eliminators and Eradicators.

 

I’m definitely able to put both in the force as it progresses, but I’ve got my eye on a gladiator and whatever the blurred skimmer is going to be to fill out some additional anti tank.

 

As you can see it doesn’t really have anything in the way of dedicated CC, but then I’m not sure it’s needed and would the additional (albeit on S4) firepower on a T5 chassis be more suitable than the 2+/4++, considering neither unit it likely to screen characters very successfully?

[Captain Idaho]

Without an Impulsor, I don't think you'll get as much consistency out of Bladeguard for an Ultramarines army. Go with the Aggressors out of the 2.

[Ishagu]

Aggressors, imo.

 

With the flat damage 2 fists they are the better choice for now - both in shooting and in combat.

 

If the Bladeguard can be run in a bigger unit once the codex drops we'll have to re-evaluate them. 5 Bladeguard with an Ancient/Lieutenant/Captain in an Impulsor will be an interesting infantry chopping squad.

[Karhedron]

If flamestorm Aggressors go to 12" range like conventional flamers I think they may be a very tempting option now.

[Riddlesworth]

If flamestorm Aggressors go to 12" range like conventional flamers I think they may be a very tempting option now.

 

believe this was confirmed by a leaked aggressor datasheet somewhere. Expect a nerf given the horrendous things that Ultras and Salamanders can do wtih out of reserve though.

 

OP - aggressors are the better choice. Being Ultramarines pushes it over the edge with the move and double shoot in tactical doctrine.

[Karhedron]

Possibly some of the Chapter tactics may get revised in the new codex to tone down broken combos. A lot of unknowns at the moment.

[Mandragola]

Right now I agree with the others that Aggressors seem like the better option for Ultramarines. In tactical doctrine these guys are incredibly powerful.

 

Aggressors hit hard but they can disappear very quickly in combat against the wrong kind of opponent. When enemies turn up with hard-hitting close combat weapons that do 3 damage, their lack of an invulnerable save can be very bad news. There are ways around this, like putting an Ancient and/or Justiciar nearby to make sure they get to strike.

 

This does offer a role for Bladeguard. They do have invulnerable saves, so they've got the staying power that Aggressors lack. Unforunately for now they're limited to 3-man units, meaning that they can't ever really have all that much durability.

 

There are really a lot of units now performing a similar kind of function to these two units. Terminators fall more or less half way between the two, with a bit less firepower than Aggressors but almost the durability of bladeguard - or more if you go for TH/SS termies. We have to wait to see the codex for the full rules for all these units though, and crucially for their points costs. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Bladeguard vs Aggressors in general is not a good comparison.

[Riddlesworth]

Mandragola nails it. Although interviews with recent tournament winning sallies players implies that they are using bladeguard to stand on objectives and be tough to get rid of, while aggrrssors are the nammer from strategic reserves

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

But he pointed out since they are limited to three per unit they aren’t really durable.

[Riddlesworth]

But he pointed out since they are limited to three per unit they aren’t really durable.

Very true. Pure survivability puts them above primsris troops choices for that k

Job until you take obsec into account though

[Mandragola]

Well the unit size issue is an odd one. There's obviously nothing stopping you buying two units, and in many ways that's a lot more durable. One way it fails though is in character protection, which 3 man units are very bad at. As soon as a Bladeguard dies, the characters are fair game.

 

I'm not too surprised to hear about people using bladeguard units to hold objectives. They're pretty difficult to get rid of at a distance, especially at their cost. They're fairly easy to hide and obsec isn't all that relevant. It's fairly likely that you're gaining more in survivability compared to intercessors than you're losing in terms of firepower, since intercessors aren't really all that shooty.

[Ishagu]

The next codex could transform the Bladeguard.

 

We should wait and see. Right now Aggressors are the unit to go for.

[Captain Idaho]

I think holding objectives with Bladeguard is quite inefficient though. Would you use Assault Terminators for such a role?

 

If you're hanging back with Bladeguard, consider using Terminators or something. Eliminators or Troops choices.

[Riddlesworth]

I think holding objectives with Bladeguard is quite inefficient though. Would you use Assault Terminators for such a role?

 

If you're hanging back with Bladeguard, consider using Terminators or something. Eliminators or Troops choices.

Assault terminators aren't 105 points and most objectives are in modfield where there will be conflict so I get why its being done - I'm not saying I'm doing it. Im saying people winning GTs in early 9th are doing it. With strategic reserves, aggressors are coming in and double shooting with ultras, or using the strat for sallies. Bladeguard are unsuitable for that role.

 

The codex should bring a fair few changes

[Captain Idaho]

Early days yet of course. I think there are more competitive ways of doing it, even at 105pts.

[Ishagu]

3 Bladeguard are only 5 points more than 5 Intercessors, and you're only losing 1 total wound but gaining great cc output.

 

However I don't value elite msu units like this that burn away you'd force org slots.

 

I'd rather take units for a specif job and make sure they can do it.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Ishagu

[Karhedron]

The key is that 4++ save. With 3 wounds and an Invuln, even plasma is going to have a hard job shifting those guys off an Objective. True they don't have ObjSec but there are very few Troop units in the game that could stand next to them without getting cut to ribbons. Horde units could drown them perhaps and I guess Custodes outmatch them but not much else.

 

Objectives are much more important in 9th due to continuous scoring. In 8th, a hammer unit would often be considered wasted if it wasn't killing its own weight in enemy units. In 9th that is no longer the case. Parking a 105 point unit on an Objective that is tough enough to give your opponent a hard time to remove can be a winning move, even if they don't kill much.

[Ishagu]

Yes, but we're no longer running multiple detachments. I often run a patrol when I use Marines - I can't waste a valuable elite slot on a small msu unit like this when I could be running 5 Aggressors in it's place, or a Relic Contemptor, as an example.

[Karhedron]

In a Patrol, perhaps not. In a Battalion the availability of 6 Elite slots makes it a bit easier but I guess a lot depends on what points you are playing.

[Ishagu]

In a Patrol, perhaps not. In a Battalion the availability of 6 Elite slots makes it a bit easier but I guess a lot depends on what points you are playing.

lol if I want to run Guilliman and still have anything resembling an army around him I have to run a Patrol to shave points off HQ's and mandatory units, if required.

[Riddlesworth]

 

In a Patrol, perhaps not. In a Battalion the availability of 6 Elite slots makes it a bit easier but I guess a lot depends on what points you are playing.

lol if I want to run Guilliman and still have anything resembling an army around him I have to run a Patrol to shave points off HQ's and mandatory units, if required.

That was my force slots thought. In a battalion there's actually plenty of elite slots available to run bladeguard in this way.

 

But yeah, running Bobby g and a battallion is rough

[Captain Idaho]

I would say that paying 105pts for holding an objective is okay in places, but consider Ishagu's comparison of 5 Intercessors. You'll have to pay points on Troops anyway for a Battalion, so that's extra points. If you use the Troops you're already paying for then you're saving 105pts.