What are best SM ranged weapons to kill two wound models

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So far I’ve come up with the following list:

 

overcharged plasma

stalker bolt rifles

autocannons

heavy bolters (new profile)

[XeonDragon]

So far I’ve come up with the following list:

 

overcharged plasma

stalker bolt rifles

autocannons

heavy bolters (new profile)

 

Multi-meltas, the new +2 damage rule would work a trick. 

[Dracos]

I think for for what you’re going for you should probably list D3 damage also but ...

 

Melee weapons like MC Power Swords Power Fist and Thunder Hammers are the only other common items I can think of.

[MegaVolt87]

Mass chip/ plink dmg, same as 8th ed. Extra wound bump for SM is nothing if they need to roll a bazillion saves from mass shooting via regular/ mid strength ROF weapons. Repulsor goes brrrrrr.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m going for efficiency.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'm wondering if we'll see other buffed weapon profiles come the new codex. Things like the plasma family

[MegaVolt87]

I'm wondering if we'll see other buffed weapon profiles come the new codex. Things like the plasma family

Have the hellblasters leaked yet? I got a sealed box sitting there waiting to assemble.

[Dracos]

Edit. Wrong topic. Edited August 17, 2020 by Dracos

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Grav cannons? D3 damage on 3+ armour, usually with a damage re-roll is pretty decent.

 

New Heavy Bolters.

[Hymnblade]

Keep in mind that, with new Gravis models and 3W terminators, plus Custodes maybe being a top meta army, focusing too hard on 2D weapons will mean doing a lot of overkill on suddenly-very-common 3W targets. So, maybe don't lean too hard into this.

 

Aside from the AP, 2 shots with a bolt rifle does just as much damage as 1 shot with a stalker rifle - except without a heavy penalty, better against light infantry, and without overkill issues on 3W models or against FNPs.

[Mandragola]

Mass chip/ plink dmg, same as 8th ed. Extra wound bump for SM is nothing if they need to roll a bazillion saves from mass shooting via regular/ mid strength ROF weapons. Repulsor goes brrrrrr.

 

I’m going for efficiency.

Using a 1-damage gun against 2W models is sometimes going to be the most efficient option. For example, an auto bolt rifle in tactical doctrine does better than a stalker, especially on the move. Over the course of a game it can easily be the better choice.

 

Don't ignore 1-damage stuff. 8 shots at 1D from an onslaught gatling cannon are still better than 3 shots at 2D from a heavy bolter against any target. This is especially true if there are already wounded models in the unit. And of course, the OGC is way better against targets with only 1 wound.

 

If anything, there's a case for using fewer 2D weapons now, as there are quite a lot more models going around with 3 wounds. 2D guns are not very efficient against stuff like gravis (including presumably the new heavy intercessors), terminators, bladeguard, necron destroyers and so on.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The stalker is the best choice due to higher Ap2 and flat two damage.

[Blindhamster]

it isn't necessarily the best choice on a dense terrain table though, as the -1 to hit as you reposition to get a good line of sight on enemies counters those other things, it's also a bit all or nothing, where rapid fire bolt rifle (especially turn 2) will generally mean you'll be more likely to get some damage through thanks to multiple shots and no penalty for moving and shooting. Similar can be said for auto bolt rifles and their three shots as you can afford to be VERY mobile with them. On a big open table with limited terrain though? yeah stalker is probably usually better I guess

[Mandragola]

The stalker is the best choice due to higher Ap2 and flat two damage.

It's not that simple.

 

I did some calculations of average damage from the two guns, depending on what doctrine you're in. This is with no penalties to hit and no cover. Stalkers are better against targets in cover and auto rifles let you move and shoot without penalty, so I suppose that's about a wash anyway.

 

So average wounds for each gun vs T4 3+ save are as follows:

 

In devastator the stalker does 0.56 and the auto rifle 0.33. The stalker is significantly better.

 

In tactical the stalker does 0.45 and the auto rifle 0.5. The auto rifle is a bit better.

 

In assault the stalker still does 0.44 and the auto rifle does 0.33, so the stalker is a bit better.

 

Overall the stalker is probably a little bit better than an auto rifle vs 2 wound targets. But it is always worse against targets with 1 wound, even in devastator doctrine, and it struggles against 3 wound targets.

 

There are lots of other factors to consider. The stalker's range is very helpful for back field objective sitters, but you don't need loads of those and you might choose to use something else entirely, like a vehicle covered in lascannons, to do that job. The game makes you prioritise moving around and fighting over midfield objectives. That's where the auto rifle, which lets you advance to hold midline objectives in turn 1, really starts to shine.

 

Flat 2 damage just isn't all that great. You would always be better off with 2 shots doing 1 damage instead of 1 shot doing 2, if all other stats were equal. Abilities like FNP make a massive difference against 2 damage weapons, so firing at Death Guard with stalkers is going to be seriously frustrating. You'll fail to kill a plague marine on 1 wound 5 times out of 9 now. I'm starting to put apothecaries into infantry-heavy marine lists myself, for the 6+++ aura they can now buy.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Mandragola

[Medicinal Carrots]

A 5 man squad of Stalkers will kill:

Devastator doctrine, stationary - 1.39 dead 2W marines

Devastator doctrine, moving - 1.04 dead 2W marines

Other doctrine, stationary - 1.11 dead 2W marines

Other doctrine, moving - .83 dead 2W marines

 

A 5 man squad of Auto Bolt Rifles will kill:

Tactical doctrine - 1.25 dead 2W marines (2.5 wounds inflicted)

Tactical doctrine, advancing - .94 dead 2W marines (1.88 wounds inflicted)

Other doctrine - .83 dead 2W marines (1.67 wounds inflicted)

Other doctrine, advancing - .63 dead 2W marines (1.25 wounds inflicted)

 

A 5 man squad of regular Bolt rifles will kill:

Tactical doctrine, rapid fire - 1.11 2W marines (2.22 wounds inflicted)

Other doctrine, rapid fire - .83 dead 2W marines (1.67 wounds inflicted)

Single shot deals half the damage

 

A 5 man Tactical squad with 2 plasma and combi-plasma will kill:

Tactical doctrine, rapid fire, overcharging - 2.72 dead 2W marines (firing only plasma part of combi)

Tactical doctrine, rapid fire, not overcharging - 1.40 dead 2W marines (firing both parts of combi, 1.38 if only firing plasma part of combi)

Other doctrine, rapid fire, overcharging - 2.19 dead 2W marines (firing only plasma part of combi)

Other doctrine, rapid fire, not overcharging - 1.07 dead 2W marines (firing only plasma part of combi)

Single shots deal half damage

 

A heavy bolter is better than a non-overcharging plasma gun, but worse than an overcharging plasma gun, whether moving or stationary.

A grav cannon beats an overcharging plasma when stationary. When moving, it's worse than overcharged plasma, but better than non-overcharged. (not taking Gravitic Amplification into account)

 

For a troops choice, Tacticals with overcharging plasma and combi-plasma is the best choice for killing 2W marines. Stalkers are decent if you want a unit to stay stationary all game. Auto Bolt Rifles are good for a mobile unit, and also good for clearing chaff 1W units.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Medicinal Carrots

[Volt]

I'd go with auto bolters personally, as during round 2 and 3 they'll have AP-1, 33% more shots than normal bolters, and most importantly can advance up the board while shooting and thus "negating" any cover modifiers as they max out at -1. And more crucially, they're moving up the board and laying down thick suppressive fire while pushing objectives or getting into melee to make use of extra attacks.

[Medicinal Carrots]

Also, honetable mention to the humble flamer, for Salamanders only. In the Tactical doctrine, it very slightly beats a safe plasma gun.

[Rik Lightstar]

Combat Blades, Chainswords and Power Swords in Assault Doctrine assuming you're White Scars.

 

Rik

[Captain Idaho]

Heavy bolters are the most effective weapon in the army, by the look at it. 3 shots at Damage 2, at a strength meaning they can wound any vehicle in the game on a 5+, is excellent. The weapon can be used on anything in the game with some success - 3 shots for hordes and infantry, Damage 2 for heavy infantry and vehicles, longer range than most weapons, cheap points (at this stage) and access in a lot of units. Against even Knights and Land Raiders, this gun actually outperforms Autocannons right now.

[War Angel]

You guys are over complicating this with things like terrain and cover. He’s asking about single shot single kill weapons. Not what’s best when your in X doctrine and on the move.

 

Stalker bolt rifle is a great option, heavy bolter is the same but more shots. Autocannon has less shots, higher strength (in excess so it’s more points for strength it doesn’t need)

 

Plasma is pretty good too, a little bit more risk but has good AP.

 

 

Oh, the absolute best weapon though, is the relic mastercrafted auto bolt rifle. 4 shots AP1 and D2 if I remember correctly.

[War Angel]

Just checked, bellicose bolt rifle, Assault 4 24” S5 AP-1 D2. Costs your relic, but damn is it tasty.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I want weapons that can be fielded en masse.

Combat Blades, Chainswords and Power Swords in Assault Doctrine assuming you're White Scars.

Rik

.

i said ranged weapons.

[Gothical]

Predator Autocannons are pretty sweet for nailing W2 stuff, especially since they can be combined with Heavy Bolters. You get a smidge of "overkill" thanks to the third point of damage being wasted, but I see that as insurance against other units that you may come across with 3 wounds like Nobz or Terminators.

 

Flamestorm Cannons on the Redeemer are perfect, but short-ranged (still ranged though!)

 

Eliminators with Mortis Rounds are fairly reliable but you only get 3 to a squad of course, maxing out at 9. Las Fusils can be used instead to "snipe" Terminators thanks to the easier chances of wounding (important against Death Guard variants) and the additional point of damage.

 

The Las-Talon is pretty decent, it may be D6 damage and therefore a combination of overkill/unreliable, but when you consider the decent platforms the thing can be stuck to (Repulsor, Stormhawk, twinned on the upcoming Firestrike Turret variant and Gladiator tank) it can be an attractive option to open up on a Marine/Primaris squad if no vehicles really need to die that turn.

 

Overkill is not inherently a loss of efficiency - maximising your gains in a turn, be it in points or objectives held, and using your firepower to do so is highly efficient no matter how many potential wounds are "wasted". For example, you can use a Vindicator to hit a 10-man Marine unit (minimum 3 shots on the D6) and then hit with a volley of Las-Talon fire or a Predator Autocannon to finish off the survivors. If that 10-man unit was holding an objective or going to claim a secondary/perform an action, then although you have "wasted" anti-tank calibre firepower and used D6/D3 weapons over D2 ones, you have achieved overall efficiency within the force on the table as you have come out ahead in victory points scored with a minimum of your army firing.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It depends on how much overkill there is. The stalker is perfect versus elite infantry IMO... of course the Bolt Rifle and Auto Bolter have merit as well.

[Karhedron]

I'm starting to put apothecaries into infantry-heavy marine lists myself, for the 6+++ aura they can now buy.

6+++ aura? Did I miss an FAQ? I have been running all-infantry BA for 8th with some decent success. An extra 6+++ as well as 2W would be pretty tasty.