What are best SM ranged weapons to kill two wound models

[Medicinal Carrots]

OK, big load of mathhammer incoming. I ran the numbers for most Space Marine guns shooting at 2W T4 3+Sv models. I didn't do mutli-shot variable damage weapons, or weapons that proc'd on a wound roll, because those are significantly more mathy and I'm way overdue to sleep. Some of those will be good (Grav-cannon), some will suck (Sniper Rifle) and some I don't know. Might add those later. I also left off some weapons I just didn't care about, like Deathstorm drop pod stuff and hand flamers.

 

Caveats:

-All numbers are for a single weapon (for example, the Flamestorm number is for only 1 of a Redeemer's 2 Flamestorms). Multiply for multiple weapons on a unit/model.

-All shots assume 12" range, mostly because it is the longest range that is viable for almost every shooting weapon (anything with shorter range is not included).

-Previewed/leaked weapon changes and logical inferences from them were used, other weapons were left as is.

-Doctrines, Chapter Tactics, and Stratagems were ignored. Doctrines will make a BIG difference in the outcome.

-Infantry heavy weapons are assumed to be stationary, other weapons are generally assumed to move enough to not get any movement related bonuses or penalties, with the main exception of the Scorpius, since it can fire out of line of sight and has no reason to move without outside pressure.

-Abilities that are no brainers are assumed (e.g. Eradicators shoot twice)

-Plasma is assumed to overcharge unless otherwise stated.

-Combi-weapon numbers are for firing both parts of the gun, use the non-combi version for only shooting that half.

-I may have typo'd the math on a couple of these, so a grain of salt is warranted

 

TL;DR:

Best gun for killing 2W marines is the Scorpius Multi-launcher.

Best commonish vehicle gun is a 3 way tie between the Twin Heavy Bolter, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, and Twin Assault Cannon.

Best man portable gun is a tie between the Multi-melta, Melta Rifle, and Plasma Incinerator.

Most point efficient infantry gun is the Plasma Incinerator

The Scorpius Multi-Launcher is 36% more point efficient at killing marines than a Stalker Bolt Rifle, and about half as efficient as a Plasma Incinerator

Single damage weapons with lots of shots can match or beat multi-damage weapons (e.g. a Heavy Bolter, Hurricane Bolter, and Assault Cannon all kill the same number of 2W marines).

Plasma good, pistols and most bolters inefficient

 

Here's the list. Numbers are how many 2W marines a single gun will kill, on average, in 1 round of shooting.

 

Scorpius Multi-launcher => 3.5555555556

Storm Cannon Array => 2.962962963

Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon => 2.962962963

Quad Heavy Bolter => 2.6666666667

Infernus Cannon => 2.3333333333

Hellfire Plasma Carronade => 2.3148148148

Anvillus Autocannon Battery => 2.2222222222

Twin Multi-melta => 2.2222222222

Cyclonic Melta Lance => 2.2222222222

Grav-flux Bombard => 2.2222222222

Twin Magna-melta => 2.2222222222

Punisher Rotary Cannon => 2

Macro Plasma Incinerator => 1.9444444444

Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon => 1.8518518519

Twin Ironhail Autocannon => 1.7777777778

Flamestorm Cannon => 1.5555555556

Neutron Pulse Cannon => 1.5277777778

Plasma Destroyer => 1.4814814815

Quad Launcher (shatter) => 1.4814814815

Twin Heavy Bolter => 1.3333333333

Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon => 1.3333333333

Twin Accellerator Autocannon => 1.3333333333

Twin Assault Cannon => 1.3333333333

Incendium Cannon => 1.1666666667

Multi-melta/Melta Rifle => 1.1111111111

Magna-melta Cannon => 1.1111111111

Omega Plasma Array (volley) => 1.1111111111

Laser Volley Cannon (overcharge)=> 1.1111111111

Plasma Incinerator => 1.1111111111

Heavy Laser Destroyer => 1.1111111111

Plasma Cannon/Heavy Plasma Cannon/Plasma Exterminator => 0.9259259259

Plasma Gun/Plasma Blast Gun => 0.9259259259

Laser Volley Cannon (volley) => 0.9259259259

Twin Hellstrike Launcher => 0.9259259259

Predator Autocannon => 0.8888888889

Onslaught Gatling Cannon => 0.8888888889

Twin Autocannon => 0.8888888889

Assault Plasma Incinerator => 0.8888888889

Thunderfire Cannon => 0.8888888889

Whirlwind Vengeance Launcher => 0.8888888889

Xiphon Missile Battery => 0.8888888889

Combi-plasma => 0.7777777778

Vengeance Launcher => 0.7777777778

Tempest Salvo Launcher => 0.7407407407

Cyclone Missile Launcher/Typhoon Missile Launcher (krak) => 0.6790123457

Heavy Bolter => 0.6666666667

Hurricane Bolter => 0.6666666667

Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon => 0.6666666667

Assault Cannon => 0.6666666667

Graviton Blaster => 0.6172839506

Skyspear Missile Launcher => 0.5941358025

Accelerator Autocannon => 0.5925925926

Quad Launcher (thunderfire) => 0.5925925926

Flamestorm Gauntlets => 0.5833333333

Heavy Flamer => 0.5833333333

Heavy Plasma Incinerator => 0.5555555556

Laser Destroyer => 0.5401234568

Whirlwind Castellan Launcher => 0.5185185185

Meltagun => 0.5092592593

Icarus Stormcannon => 0.5

Combi-melta => 0.4652777778

Plasma Pistol => 0.462962963

Las Fusil => 0.462962963

Stormstrike Missile Launcher => 0.462962963

Aiolos Missile Launcher => 0.4444444444

Reaper Autocannon => 0.4444444444

Firefury Missile Battery => 0.4444444444

Lascannon => 0.424382716

Master Crafted Boltgun => 0.4166666667

Master Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle => 0.4166666667

Skyhammer Missile Launcher => 0.4166666667

Cyclone Missile Launcher/Typhoon Missile Launcher (frag) => 0.3888888889

Helios Launcher => 0.3888888889

Combi-flamer => 0.375

Twin Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber => 0.375

Missile Launcher (krak) => 0.3395061728

Hunter Killer Missile => 0.3395061728

Auto Boltstorm Gauntlet => 0.3333333333

Ironhail Heavy Stubber => 0.3333333333

Icarus Rocket Pod => 0.3333333333

Twin Bolt Rifle => 0.3333333333

Combi-grav => 0.3148148148

Grav-pistol => 0.3086419753

Grav-gun => 0.3086419753

C-beam Cannon => 0.3086419753

Neo-volkite Pistol/Volkite Charger => 0.2962962963

Flamer => 0.2916666667

Grenade Harness => 0.2916666667

Master Crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle => 0.2777777778

Storm Bolter/Combi-bolter/Twin Boltgun => 0.2222222222

Master Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbine => 0.2222222222

Master Crafted Occulus Bolt Rifle => 0.2222222222

Absolver Bolt Pistol => 0.2222222222

Stalker Bolt Rifle => 0.2222222222

Special Issue Boltgun => 0.2222222222

Missile Launcher (frag) => 0.1944444444

Fragstorm Grenade Launcher => 0.1944444444

Cerberus Launcher => 0.1944444444

Astartes Grenade Launcher (krak) => 0.1851851852

Krakstorm Grenade Launcher => 0.1851851852

Boltstorm Gauntlet => 0.1666666667

Auto Bolt Rifle => 0.1666666667

Bolt Rifle => 0.1666666667

Instigator Bolt Carbine => 0.1666666667

Bolt Sniper Rifle (hyperfrag) => 0.1481481481

Bolt Sniper Rifle (executioner) => 0.1388888889

Marksman Bolt Carbine => 0.1388888889

Astartes Grenade Launcher (frag) => 0.1296296296

Bolter/Occulus Bolt Carbine/Shotgun => 0.1111111111

Heavy Bolt Pistol => 0.0833333333

Bolt Pistol => 0.0555555556

Edited August 17, 2020 by Medicinal Carrots

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is just raw numbers. It is in a vacuum as well. Nobody is going to spam melta to kill 2W models. Without any real analysis for practical application is just a maths exercise.

[Medicinal Carrots]

This is just raw numbers. It is in a vacuum as well. Nobody is going to spam melta to kill 2W models. Without any real analysis for practical application is just a maths exercise.

It's a baseline. The numbers are most useful for heavy weapons, which will spend the most time outside their doctrine and using these baseline numbers.

 

The Tactical doctrine makes a huge difference for sure, and Rapid Fire/Assault weapons will see the most improvement from the baseline.

 

Some trends still emerge, though. AP-4, 2D, and volume of shots are the big impact stats. Overcharged plasma in Tactical doctrine is the general purpose king of killing 2W infantry.

 

Nobody's going to spam melta specifically to counter 2W models, but people are already spamming Eradicators, and the Multi-melta change will increase their presence as well. It's good to know that those guns are comparable to Tactical plasma at killing 2W marines, so you don't lose much in the way of efficiency if your opponent doesn't load up on vehicles.

[Mandragola]

 

I'm starting to put apothecaries into infantry-heavy marine lists myself, for the 6+++ aura they can now buy.

6+++ aura? Did I miss an FAQ? I have been running all-infantry BA for 8th with some decent success. An extra 6+++ as well as 2W would be pretty tasty.

 

This is in faith and fury. It's a Warlord trait that a Chief Apothecary can take. 6+ FNP to a model in a unit of infantry or bikes within 6" of the apothecary. I'm thinking that an Apothecary with this and maybe the eye of hypnoth could be a great alternative to a lieutenant for my Crimson Fists - albeit at the cost of a few CPs. It's even better for Iron Hands as it makes the aura 5+++ instead.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

6+++ doesn’t seem worth it to me as an aura but 5+++ is the magic number.

[Mandragola]

5+++ is certainly better. Even 6+++ is a 20% increase in durability though, and better than that against D2 weapons. As Iron Hands you'd get great durability, but Fists give you better damage output. The Eye of Hypnoth relic is great because it means the apothecary is doing the job of a lieutenant - albeit only for shooting - as well as giving out FNP and healing stuff. However as Crimson Fists I'll have to buy it for a CP because I don't have direct access to Imperial Fist relics.

 

Basically a FNP aura is great for everyone. If it improves your existing FNP, awesome. If it gives you FNP in addition to whatever you had already - also awesome.

[Alcyon]

This is just raw numbers. It is in a vacuum as well. Nobody is going to spam melta to kill 2W models. Without any real analysis for practical application is just a maths exercise.

This guy put a lot of work in to help answer your question, which, for the record, had no caveats like the ones you just made.

 

I'm surprised to see the Macro Plasma Incinerator so high - I would've expected it to balance out against the Heavy Onslaught Gatling given the latter's huge number of shots vs. D6. I suppose that's overcharged. Were there leaks changing its statline?

 

Would be cool to see a points efficiency stat too, Medicinal Carrots, since it seems like you maybe computed that as well. Glad to see Hellblasters are doing ok since I just starting building some. Worth noting for sure how many of these weapons you can run in a single unit... A lot of these are one or two only per model at a high points cost.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I said I’m going for efficiency. Sure you can waste your AT on them but it’s just that. Edited August 18, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[tychobi]

I said I’m going for efficiency. Sure you can waste your AT on them but it’s just that.

Not sure you get to be the judge there BBF. Being polite will not cost you much.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Mandragola]

Let's not resort to calling each other names. Let's also try not to dismiss each other's arguments or hard work out of hand.

 

These numbers tell us which guns kill the most 2W marines. That's useful to know. We already know what these guns cost (or at least what they cost today!), how many of them we can have and whether we can glue them onto platforms that are fast, durable, cheap, obsec or whatever.

 

It's relevant to know that Eradicators are as good at killing 2W marines as hellblasters are. It tells us that no, it is not a waste to fire Eradicators at marines. So if we're considering whether to add Hellblasters or Eradicators to our list, we might consider that they're equally* good at this job, but that Eradicators are better at killing tanks and don't blow themselves up.

 

*Not really equally. Eradicators are more expensive, tougher and harder to transport. They come in units of 3 instead of 5, so you get fewer shots for every HS slot. They fire 2 shots at 24" instead of rapid firing at 15", but their maximum range is only 24" instead of 30".

[Captain Idaho]

=][= Do not insult others in your posts. =][=

[Alcyon]

Efficiency of what? Points efficiency is different from per-model efficiency is different from efficiency at range. There are a lot of axes to compare from. It's obviously appealing to think there's one right answer but the game would be very boring if it were so.

 

I think mostly the results are what you'd expect. Weapons that deal 2 dmg and have enough Str and AP are very useful. The overcharged plasma statline of S8 AP-4 D2 is arguably optimal but there are lots of other weapons with S>4 and D2, autocannons, etc. plus ones with S>4 that only deal 1 damage but put out a lot more shots. As others have noted these are arguably more optimal if you're shooting multiple weapons at the squad since they don't waste shots against 1w models. 

 

At the end of the day the decision has to be based on your army, strategies, transports, meta, etc. etc. You have no choice but to run SOME bolters for your Troops so those will always be available, and I think 5-man Intercessor Squads with Stalkers is always going to be a solid choice for holding backline objectives and shooting 2w+ models. Outside of that I think running some plasma is a good idea and/or grav if you have a good delivery system and some CP handy for Gravitic Amplification. And then you can mop up with the rest of your heavier anti-infantry weapons like Gatling and Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters etc., or fire your AT at them in a pinch. Boring answer but it's not a simple question.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

As I already said the stalker bolt rifle is really good at this task while firing a lascannon just seems like a waste. Hellblasters I can easily making a comeback again. Plaza in Inceptors as well.

[Medicinal Carrots]

Grav-cannon with Grav-amp => 1.1695083581

 

 

I said I’m going for efficiency. Sure you can waste your AT on them but it’s just that.

Point per kill efficiency on a unit basis? Probably Company Vets with 5 overcharged Plasma Guns/Combi-Plasma. Grav-cannon Devs are very close on their own, but I didn't run the numbers on moving vs. stationary, +1 to hit for one guy, Drop Pod cost, Cherub, or Gravitic Amplification, so they may have the edge.

 

And again, it's not a matter of "wasting" AT weapons. It's a matter of some AT weapons also being good at killing 2W marines. It's a matter of versatility and not wasting points. If a weapon is good at killing tanks and good at killing 2W marines, that weapon is better from a list building perspective than a gun that is good at only doing one or the other. It's the same reason firing overcharged plasma at a tank isn't wasting those shots, since the gun is good at both hurting tanks and killing heavy infantry.

 

From a versatility perspective, plasma, Multi-meltas, and Melta Rifles are good at the dual heavy infantry/anti-tank role. (Twin) Assault Cannons and (Heavy) Onslaught Gatling Cannons are good at the dual heavy infantry/light infantry role. Grav-cannons, Scorpius Multi-launchers, and Storm Cannon Arrays are good in all 3 roles.

 

Point efficiency numbers are tough to calculate in a big list, since many guns have several different platforms to put them on. If you want the point efficiency for a unit, add up the kill number for all guns in the unit, then divide the unit cost by that total. (e.g. for a Tactical squad with a Plasma and Combi-plasma, take the Plasma number times 2, plus the Bolter number times 3, then divide the unit cost by that number).

Edited August 18, 2020 by Medicinal Carrots

[Mandragola]

It's important to remember that you don't actually pay for the bullets that your little plastic space men shoot at each other. It's really no bother to shoot them two, three, or fourteen times if you want. That may end up being the most efficient way of doing things if you can send fourteen rounds to chip away at the target more easily than you can send one perfect kill shot.

 

Decisions continue to be different depending on all kinds of factors. My Fists prefer to take heavy weapons that fire a lot of shots, for example, so I will tend to take things like heavy bolters, autocannons and storm cannon arrays rather than the lascannons and missile launchers that the fluff says I should take. And usefully, these guns are also good at killing Primaris. I'd very rarely pick a plasma gun if I could give the model a heavy bolter instead, because it's better against everything for me now.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Imperial Fists get bonuses for shooting bolt weapons with high rate of fire so yeah auto Bolter is a great choice for them.

 

The way I look at is if they can see me I can see them and not playing Imperial Fists I can save a few points.

[MegaVolt87]

Just because you are not IF's, dosn't mean chip dmg from mass fire is suddenly ineffective for SM against multi wound infantry. Not having IF strats/rules is like missing a nail gun from your tool chest, but you have a hammer that can still get the job done properly because you still have the other tools to do the work.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Bolt weapons are like totally amazing for Imperial Fists. They can generate so many shots is just crazy. I prefer to take stalkers for my Intercessors in the current meta and use other units for mass RoF to clear chaff.

[Snazzy]

At the risk of angering the Primaris players, Sternguard.

[Karhedron]

At the risk of angering the Primaris players, Sternguard.

AP-2 but still only 1D.

[Minsc]

 

At the risk of angering the Primaris players, Sternguard.

AP-2 but still only 1D.

 

You're thinking small: You give the entire squad Combi-plasmas and overcharge to the max! 

;)

[TiguriusX]

 

 

 

At the risk of angering the Primaris players, Sternguard.

AP-2 but still only 1D.

You're thinking small: You give the entire squad Combi-plasmas and overcharge to the max!

;)

Space wolf terminators will volunteer for this field test

 

Fury of the champion and keen senses with combi plasmas

 

10 terminators can pump out 20 plasma and 20 bolter shots hitting on 2s

 

Should out perform the leviathan and dual storm cannons but not sure about the artillery piece occupying #1 spot

 

*my bad...ignored caveat to ignore stratagems etc.

Edited August 20, 2020 by TiguriusX

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Oh man I forgot about the storm cannon !

[Medicinal Carrots]

 

At the risk of angering the Primaris players, Sternguard.

AP-2 but still only 1D.

 

It's on par with the Stalker Bolt Rifle if you can rapid fire, and better in the Tactical Dotrine. Twice the shots and 1 or 2 more AP definitely helps.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Medicinal Carrots