What's the Point of the Horus Heresy Now?

[Jareddm]

If I had to choose what we got over not having the Heresy series at all, I'd absolutely keep what we got. But I agree that what we got was a setting, not a series. Where I feel BL failed is after realizing they had a setting instead of a series, they didn't market it as such. I would've dropped the numbered novels, rebrand some of the story arcs into their own trilogies set in the Horus Heresy setting. Too many people still go into it as if they're going to read it in order, then burn out before they're even into the double digits.

[StrangerOrders]

As has been noted, hindsight’s 20/20 and they didn’t really know what they were doing when this all began. Trying to make sense of the Heresy as an actual A to B series will only give you a headache, it’s turned into a setting like 40k whether it was the intention or not. Of course, I’m aware this doesn’t exactly address the issue that, fair for the time or no, Horus fell in two books. I can hardly blame anyone for being frustrated.

 

That said, the idea no primarchs have changed or have arcs just isn’t true. Perturabo, Jaghatai, Russ, Dorn, Guilliman, Lorgar, Vulkan, and Corax all have an arc that’s easy to track by reading their associated works, YMMV on quality of course. Fulgrim, Ferrus, Angron, Magnus, and Alpharius all get a one book arc or introduction before becoming a static character, true, but that’s still probably more than they would have gotten if it was an actual, concise series. The Lion, Curze, Sanguinius, Mortarion, and Horus are the only real victims of too many cooks being in the kitchen, which of course sucks but is hardly all of them.

 

Ah, but I do still dream of a universe where they didn’t pull a Disney and backpedal every time a book about the 1^st proved to be divisive.

 

So, uh, for narrative poignancy I totally get that the loss of an obvious golden age is probably the right call. But to defend what we did get:

 

1 - This is as much a failing of modern 40k writing trends as it is of the Heresy sliding into the grimdark. 40k’s been edging further and further into being reasonable in recent years and that’s only going to dilute the contrast you might have seen back when you compared a newly released Horus Rising to most of its 40k contemporaries.

 

2 - So the authors have spoken at length about the difficulties in turning an age of myths into a world that people can actually occupy. And, unfortunately for the big E, he’s an autocrat trying to reconquer the galaxy. There is no possibility of negligible hardship under the premise of the great crusade. There will always be those stepped on in a military-centric, hierarchical society (and I’d object to portraying one as otherwise but that’s a can of worms not for this forum). And, atop that, the Emperor is bringing his “illumination” to worlds that were isolated for centuries. Colonialism had an adverse enough effect on our world, imagine literal starships descending onto your society and declaring that it’s time for it to be completely assimilated into a system of values you’ve never heard of.

 

Of course, if they were going to go for a “the real tragedy was that it was all doomed from the start” they should have doubled down on it, as they clearly weren’t sure if that was the endgame at the start. So I’m not so much as saying it did work, but it could have. This of course all loops back into the debate about whether this time of legend should ever have been adapted at all, as it pokes holes not only in the cool mystery of it all, but also the logic of famous events even occurring. And if you hate that it was developed at all, or that it was developed in the way it was, or that it wasn’t as cohesive as it should be, I don’t really have a counterpoint. Hate away, but I suggest applying a liberal dose of headcanon to help you enjoy it more (Curze never kept Vulkan in a maze, what are you talking about?)

 

But I’ll never agree with the sentiment that it should have been like, 10 books. Because I never would have gotten Scars and Path of Heaven, Jaghatai would have been a supporting character at best. I never would have gotten the First Heretic and Betrayer, because there’d be barely any time at all for Lorgar’s journey or the tragedy of Angron in a straightforward narrative. Nor would we have gotten the last third of Hammer of Olympia, or an Alpha legion that got to grow beyond “they’re sneaky,” or Little Horus or Savage Weapons or Prince of Crows or After De’Shea or any other extraneous bit of fluff that gave more life to the setting than any narratively sound account of a codex entry. I got over 20 books I love to read time and again out of a bloated mess, rather than 10 which while probably more cohesive, realistically would have had bad entries that were made unskippable by the subject matter. Just look at The Beast Arises, I don’t have my favourite entries of that collected like the Heresy, I have none of it. The Last Wall has no re-read value outside of its series, and I don’t want to re-read the bad half of it so there’s no point.

 

TL:DR – “What’s the point of the Heresy now?” Same as 40k. It’s a place to tell stories.

Hmm... I agree and disagree on the point regarding the Grimdark.

 

Let me take an example. Rome was pretty damned bleak at time but no amount of revisionism can really bury that it had high points and thats sort of the thing. The best empires are supposed to have very good stories that people buy into, nowadays we all like to kick Rome in the teeth but almost every Western society likes to steal things about it and claim its heritage at the drop of a hat (while outsourcing blame for the things they dislike to Italians but thats another thing entirely). I could get into a whole spiral regarding the bad habit of hobby historians to boil all of history down into a series of simplifications but that point is that its at the very least supposed to have moments where the veneer is pretty damned shiny. Especially Empires that couldn't pull the trickery of ridiculous advantages that the modern Empires pulled out of their rears regularly. 

 

Augustus was a monster and literally a founding father of Roman Autocracy. But he grew to be pretty well loved because the 40ish years before his reign were literally hell (well, I exaggerate but having your family get repeatedly murdered by feuding power blocs aint fun). 

 

30k just kind of never did? I mean you make it like a chapter into Horus Rising before we meet the Iterators who seem like negative modern westerner stereotypes pulled out of time and given an acceptance for servitors. Smug aura of self-superiority, casual disdain for everyone else and the like included.

 

No one ever bought it now, everyone is cynical and the humans strain disbelief with how strangely antagonistic they are at what, from their perspective, should have been a dramatic improvement.

 

We forget but the Heresy books beat us over the head bloody with the fact that 'being eaten alive' was the pre-Imperial norm in alot of situations and we know from alot of the early Crusade works that the Imperium doesnt even hold the distinction of being the most monstrous Human empire that cropped up in the Dark Age.

 

Yet. In the span of two centuries. Everyone is already as cynical and miserable as they are in 40k, moreso even. 

 

That just doesnt make sense and makes the Human PoVs painful at times.

 

It varies of course, I dont think the light and dark is as balanced anywhere else as by Wraight tbh. He always goes out of his way to make the Imperium awful, almost everything else they are fighting worse and the 40k Imperium a murderous super-hell. Although I think some like Haley, Abnett and Reynolds gave it a good swing. 

 

I do agree with the rest of your post though as I said, its hard to judge an emergent process which more than a little looked like authors desperately trying to keep something coherent with the upper management yanking them around left and right. 

 

But, you know what, I am happy about it. Because it created a setting with so much potential. 

 

I think the Forgeworld Black Books are ironically the best example of a true 'Horus Heresy'. Because they had the advantage of having a far smaller pool of writers distilling something coherent from a far larger work with the benefit of hindsight to plug the issues.

 

The Imperium comes off as too evil? No problem, here are literally dozen several species/empires a book which make the Golden Tyrant seem like a friendly puppy.

 

This aspect of the Imperium seems to nice? No problem, throw in a number of warcrimes.

 

These Primarchs/Legions are too incompetent? No problem, here is a rationalization and several new aspects that make them pop.

 

How does the Crusade Work? No problem, borrow the strategies of the more successfully (and blessedly Premodern) Empires and update them along with indepth setting complications to make the Derpier moments come across better.

 

Its why I talk them up so much, they are basically a short and sweet 'proper' Heresy as a literal history piece.

 

On the whole though, the best things in life can come from a real mess and I think the Heresy has had far more 'mehs' than 'great' but alot more 'great' than 'god awful' as well.

 

Hope this makes sense

Edited August 18, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

Lots of good points between StrangeOrders and Roomsky.

 

Ultimately, I think my person issue was the failure of the series (granted it shifted to a setting) to establish exactly what was at stake, what was lost, and what really it was all about.

 

A few books tried, but there's just too much going on across all the books for it to have a hope of making sense.

 

Keeping it a numbered series absolutely did a disservice to the concept of a setting, while the haphazard nature (shattered legions, Blackshields, errants...) of what was provided just seems nonsensical.

 

I'd love to just look at the Heresy set from FW, but they ruined it for me when they established Nightlords have always been Nightlords, even from Terra.

[Roomsky]

 

Quality

 

 

Good and great points. RE: Grimdark, I'd elaborate and discuss but I don't have the self control to keep comments on the subject matter on-topic. But generally I agree, it would have been nice to see more contrast as well, and the generally human habit of occupying bad situations and going "hey guys, this ain't so bad. The circuses are great this year."

 

I feel like between the eventual release of the post-Siege Collected Visions, the full line of Forgeworld Black Books, and the buffet of novels available, everyone's going to be able to shelf an entirely unique Heresy collection that largely lives up to their wants. The advantage of so wide a pool is that each work is bound to appeal to someone (though of course we're seeing the blowback from that now that everyone's going into the Siege with wildly different expectations.)

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

Quality

 

 

Good and great points. RE: Grimdark, I'd elaborate and discuss but I don't have the self control to keep comments on the subject matter on-topic. But generally I agree, it would have been nice to see more contrast as well, and the generally human habit of occupying bad situations and going "hey guys, this ain't so bad. The circuses are great this year."

 

I feel like between the eventual release of the post-Siege Collected Visions, the full line of Forgeworld Black Books, and the buffet of novels available, everyone's going to be able to shelf an entirely unique Heresy collection that largely lives up to their wants. The advantage of so wide a pool is that each work is bound to appeal to someone (though of course we're seeing the blowback from that now that everyone's going into the Siege with wildly different expectations.)

 

Yeah and its weirdly a strength in a way from both a sales and a world-building perspective when the writers dont buck each other.

 

A truly well-flesh setting should be able to have something for everyone.

 

Not promises on the Siege, regardless of your preferences I can't see that one going down great for everyone. But then again, should a major historical event in a well-fleshed out setting go down the same for everyone? 

 

I just wish FW would just have sense and release either a big lore compilation or mini-books with just the lore from the campaign books. I feel like those would sell like hotcakes and remove the massive price barrier they have imposed on what is frankly alot of great and interesting lore. (Ever wanted to see BAngels fight humans-turned-Cyborg-Minotaur-Raiders? or the Salamanders fight MoI in the middle of subterranean energy-volcano?)

 

I love the game and the quality of the Black Books, but man do I wish more folks could access the lore.

 

Edit: Also, on the Bread and Circuses thing. Man is Wraight's Crime stuff gooooooood.

Edited August 18, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[DukeLeto69]

I have all but one if the FW black books. Missed out on Malevolence as wallet couldn’t cope then it sold out. Jyst can’t bring myself to buy the softback cos it doesn’t match!

 

But I would totally buy a nice book focused purely on the lore!

[Kelborn]

Maybe is just me again but I don't see the Horus Heresy as a series (even if it's proclaimed as such) but rather a setting.

Smaller story arcs within, a "loosely" connection/ overall theme.

 

New additions, expansions of previous stuff. Heroic moments and utter failures. Pure gems in terms of stories and close to disappointments/ stuff I'll probably never read.

 

The same with 40k, I'd say.

Give the community something to buy, read, hopefully enjoy and expand upon it.

[Bobss]

I forgive the Horus Heresy series being a mess because it sort of grew alongside Black Library going from ADVENTURES IN THE 41ST MILLENNIUM to having its own section in many branded bookstores

 

You can devote tens of thousands of Internet wordz to digging into how and why and when the series went bad (the notable points of decline are the 2nd, 6th, 26th and 31st books in my opinion) but ultimately I treat the series like I would an African diamond miner's :cuss: in amongst all of that poop you've got a few genuine diamonds. Books like Horus Rising, The First Heretic, Know No Fear, the Scars duology, The Master of Mankind and Praetorian of Dorn genuinely enhance both the settings of The Horus Heresy and Warhammer 40,000 while telling good, honest human stories in the process

 

Going forwards? Let's hope Black Library have learnt from this. Personally, I would rather we steered clear of big, multi-author endeavours, but when they inevitably surface again I hope there is stronger editorial guidance and more of a pre-determined structure - like we're seeing in the Dawn of Fire series

 

Then, every Dawn of Fire book could be written by Guy Haley and people who like it would be happy and you wouldn't even run the risk of disappointment

[Marshal Rohr]

Maybe is just me again but I don't see the Horus Heresy as a series (even if it's proclaimed as such) but rather a setting.

Smaller story arcs within, a "loosely" connection/ overall theme.

 

New additions, expansions of previous stuff. Heroic moments and utter failures. Pure gems in terms of stories and close to disappointments/ stuff I'll probably never read.

 

The same with 40k, I'd say.

Give the community something to buy, read, hopefully enjoy and expand upon it.

Abnett said the same. It’s discombobulated releases and story arcs were the victims of fan demands for moving the story forward.

[Scribe]

 

Maybe is just me again but I don't see the Horus Heresy as a series (even if it's proclaimed as such) but rather a setting.

Smaller story arcs within, a "loosely" connection/ overall theme.

 

New additions, expansions of previous stuff. Heroic moments and utter failures. Pure gems in terms of stories and close to disappointments/ stuff I'll probably never read.

 

The same with 40k, I'd say.

Give the community something to buy, read, hopefully enjoy and expand upon it.

Abnett said the same. It’s discombobulated releases and story arcs were the victims of fan demands for moving the story forward.

 

 

Blame the victim I see.

[bluntblade]

It's not like we were being forced to buy the books.

 

Actually, on that note I'd be curious to see which titles sold best in the long term.

[Carach]

go back to the early 2000s when these books were planned, and the quality of content that wh40k had novel-wise; I think few would have been able to predict such success as to spin off a ton of models and 40+ extra novels and short stories - and arguably multiple well-selling series since may never have been possible or even dreamt of had the HH not been a success. 

 

The early novels are good in the context of the original plan for the handful of novels. They fall short a bit in the wider context when it was decided to spin it out as much as possible.

 

But as mentioned earlier in the thread; Once all is said and done we will no doubt gather up our essential list to read in order of events - and there are some *great* ones that the older fans out there would have killed for back in the earlier days of the hobby. I would ask you to be happier you got this stuff than bitter there was some filler amongst the great stuff.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Carach

[Lucerne]

The Heresy should have flat out just been treated as a setting. Release the "main arc" then go wild filling in the details.

 

Hell, keeping focus would have allowed writers like Abnett to stay in charge and maintain some degree of consistency for events.

[Scribe]

The Heresy should have flat out just been treated as a setting. Release the "main arc" then go wild filling in the details.

 

Hell, keeping focus would have allowed writers like Abnett to stay in charge and maintain some degree of consistency for events.

 

Ahem, Wraight, French, and ADB, but splitting hairs...

 

We are down to the last 3 books now right? Novel wise? Wraights, ADB, and Abnett with the last one?

[cheywood]

 

 

The Heresy should have flat out just been treated as a setting. Release the "main arc" then go wild filling in the details.

 

Hell, keeping focus would have allowed writers like Abnett to stay in charge and maintain some degree of consistency for events.

Ahem, Wraight, French, and ADB, but splitting hairs...

 

We are down to the last 3 books now right? Novel wise? Wraights, ADB, and Abnett with the last one?

4 books I believe. Wraight and one of the previous authors are doing 5/6 (unclear who the other author is or who’s writing what exactly), ADB’s doing 7 and Abnett’s doing 8. Edited August 18, 2020 by cheywood

[Scribe]

Oh really?

 

I assume Wraight does Lion's Gate, Scars and Deathguard.

 

Abnett, wraps it up.

 

Has the rest been mapped at all?

[cheywood]

Oh really?

 

I assume Wraight does Lion's Gate, Scars and Deathguard.

 

Abnett, wraps it up.

 

Has the rest been mapped at all?

Nothing’s been confirmed as far as I know. ADB then Abnett is the widely accepted order, partially because people keep telling ADB he should write the finale and he says only Abnett can. Other than that it’s all inference.

[animal310]

The OP makes some very good points. Overall I have enjoyed the series however some of it has been poor. There have been a few excellent books, The First Heretic, Horus Rising, Legion, Know No Fear, Scars, Betrayer have been the highlights for me (i’m only up to Slaves of Darkness which I will read next). A lot of the others have been ok with some really poor ones occasionally. Some of the new stuff introduced has just not worked for me, the whole Vulkan thing, the perpetuals generally, imperium secundus, the stuff in Ruinstorm come to mind.

 

As the OP suggests a much longer opening would have been better, the fall should have been portrayed a lot better and yes 30k should have been a more hopeful setting making the HH all the more tragic. I think Horus Rising actually did a decent job of conveying that in places.

 

If you look at the original lore written about the Emperor he did not seem to be the shade of grey individual portrayed in the series, in fact it seems that Laurie Goulding tried to advance his own ‘fan fiction’ in this respect as he wanted the Emperor to have planned a legion war. Awful on many levels. It should be about the Emperor being betrayed by Horus, not the other way round!

 

Anyway I generally really enjoy the work of the authors closing it up so I am optimistic about a satisfying conclusion.

 

And beyond that, well I do think they will continue to explore the setting with Valdor being the first of many stand alone books I expect. They maybe present an opportunity to tidy up some of what was missed or executed poorly first time round.

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

The Heresy should have flat out just been treated as a setting. Release the "main arc" then go wild filling in the details.

 

Hell, keeping focus would have allowed writers like Abnett to stay in charge and maintain some degree of consistency for events.

Ahem, Wraight, French, and ADB, but splitting hairs...

 

We are down to the last 3 books now right? Novel wise? Wraights, ADB, and Abnett with the last one?

Actually in 2006 when this all started Wraight, French and ADB hadn’t written a single novel for black library. Just saying!

 

As for last 4 SoT books, we know Abnett has book 8. We suspect ADB has book 7 (and he has not started as confirmed on Twitter he is just finishing Black Legion 3).

 

Wraight is defo book 5 or 6. Now he has been pretty busy of late with books coming out (Valdor & Bloodlines) in short order but that doesn’t mean he hasn’t written it as lead times tend to be about 6mths to publication. However, he has also been busy working with Nick Kyme planning out Varangantua (sp?) for WH Crime.

 

Haley surely can’t be the author getting an extra book as his output has been insane and he has the planning role for Dawn of Fire series.

 

So that leaves French! He has been conspicuously quiet. No new Horusian Wars novel just the anthology if shorts. He has taken over from Alan Bligh at FW to lead HH I believe so perhaps that is his focus?

Edited August 18, 2020 by DukeLeto69

[Scribe]

Indeed, and look where we are now. They should have been given the keys to the kingdom. ;)

[DukeLeto69]

Indeed, and look where we are now. They should have been given the keys to the kingdom. ;)

Abnett should have written every book in the core narrative spine leaving others to do spin off and side arcs.

 

C’mon @scribe you know you agree with me!

[Scribe]

I was to begin screeching, but figured that was unbecoming of a man of my age.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

Maybe is just me again but I don't see the Horus Heresy as a series (even if it's proclaimed as such) but rather a setting.

Smaller story arcs within, a "loosely" connection/ overall theme.

 

New additions, expansions of previous stuff. Heroic moments and utter failures. Pure gems in terms of stories and close to disappointments/ stuff I'll probably never read.

 

The same with 40k, I'd say.

Give the community something to buy, read, hopefully enjoy and expand upon it.

Abnett said the same. It’s discombobulated releases and story arcs were the victims of fan demands for moving the story forward.

Blame the victim I see.

Not blaming anyone, just providing some context.

[mc warhammer]

or it could be read as the studio responding to market research

[aa.logan]

I may be comically uncritical at times, but I like the Heresy in all its flawed glory.

 

Even the ‘bad’ bits.

 

Sometimes even especially the ‘bad’ bits.

 

I’d love to see more traitor viewpoints; if they went back and wrote companion novels to each and every entry in the series from the opposing perspective I’d be happy.

 

In relation to the relative terribleness of life in the Imperium, I’ve always taken the fact that Chaos isn’t a (directly active force in the Great Crusade era to be the main benefit of life then. Sure, you may be yoked permanently to your station in a factotum, producing munitions to kill those in a neighbouring system who would rather not join the Imperium, but at least you aren’t at risk of Daemon I’d incursion and eternal torment. The loss of a future without that is to me the tragedy, rather than any change in quality of life for the masses.