What's the Point of the Horus Heresy Now?

[mc warhammer]

 

i just want a good story. i'm weird

I mean so do I. What is or is not good, is the unfortunate issue here.

 

Thinking on it a bit.

 

I believe that the Heresy really needed to be many things.

 

A story of what it is to breed monsters, and then not have a plan for dealing with them. (Astartes and Primarchs)

 

A story of the Emperor, what he did, if not who he was, and what lengths he went to for his plans. Plays into breeding monsters.

 

A story of humanity, just lay it out there that this is a commentary on the human condition, it's satire, but just really put it out there.

 

A story that confirms the truth of the setting/mythos, which thankfully we got.

 

If all those can be wrapped before then ending, fine, it's done what I have hoped.

 

yeah not suggesting that anyone is actively saying "adb is too good for my liking. i want my heresy books to suck, and i want them to suck hard". but if they are...y'know...good on them, i guess.

 

just that i don't have a lot of boxes that need ticking beyond "good writing". if the writers want to turn everything upside down, as long as what they're doing is actually an improvement (or at least not worse) on previous stuff...i'm cool.

 

for me, i just need the story of how 30k became 40k.

 

and i don't think BL or the authors would disagree with a lot of what people here have said, but to pull a lot of it off requires consistent project management, years of planning, no organisational disruption or pivoting, lotsa moneys and a whole bunch of other stuff that we don't have to factor in when typing from our keyboards in hindsight land, postcode 2020.

 

if the heresy series had the structure, foresight and time to pre-plan for a decade leading up to the release of horus rising, keeping it to say the same 1 or 2 authors, you'd have put a block to late coming authors like wraight or adb contributing anything but ancillary product.

 

all that being said, more focus on horus and the sixteenth would have been cool.

[aa.logan]

Have you read Saturnine and Vengeful Spirit? They cover those things

Have you?

[b1soul]

While I appreciate the challenges of writing fiction to sell models and appease corporate higher ups...

 

the Horus Heresy series we actually wound up with is an extremely low bar, and by that I mean it's not hard to produce something more organised and coherent...following a rough chronological outline with key milestone events is not rocket science or gonna cost tons of cash

 

I think the problem was that BL was expecting to wrap up the series within a dozen books (if that) and soon realised there was more money to be made. Then the "series" warped into a semi-setting with stuff (not very well-written) like Nemesis, Battle of the Abyss, the early DA duology, Outcast Dead, Damnation of Pythos, etc. Then it went back to being a series but decided to jump back in time to stuff like Prospero and Chondax. I don't think it was a case of they didn't know how to, or could not, plot a coherent series. It was more a case of let's milk this for all it's worth...I mean people will pay hand over fist even for 70 quid LE novellas by our B-team authours.

Edited August 23, 2020 by b1soul

[mc warhammer]

it's easy in a perfect world.  or one we imagine to be perfect. no complications...no rocket science needed. 

 

but if marketing interferes? that's a block. if investors interfere? that's a block. if an author gets a better offer elsewhere? that's a block. the showrunner or editor changes? block.

 

and even if you have continuity of project management from beginning to end; you better have a hot showrunner or producer or editor to wrangle a project like that, with an iron fist and they better be experienced.

 

but it also depends on where we're aiming: what level of coherence? what's the next bar up for coherence? the coherence we currently see in the siege books? the coherence in a comparable shared universe franchise? or tolkien level world-building coherence?

 

tolkien level? sounds like tv level continuity where one episode has to pick up seamlessly from the last; that requires a tonne of money and time and hours and coordination. as i understand it though, the work flow and payment systems for tie-in novels don't work that way.

 

comparable shared universes? i read some doctor who and dragonlance when i was a kid. outside of the weis and hickman triologies, i'd say they were on par with the horus heresy effort.

 

siege level? well, we know they can pull that off under the right circumstances.

Edited August 23, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Marshal Rohr]

I think for most people who are fans of the Heresy, the point of the Heresy is this is The 40K story from which everything else derives. So when people ask what’s the point, the point is that a not insignificant chunk of the community love the Heresy and want to know about it.

[b1soul]

This is a bit ironic, as while you imply (with perhaps just a touch of snark) that I'm unreasonably downplaying the difficulty due to my lack of visibility...you conveniently do the opposite and play up the difficulty of maintaining some basic consistency despite your own lack of visibility.

 

That said, we're intelligent adults who have (probably) worked at large corporations/multinationals and are somewhat familiar with project management basics.

 

The "block" BL likely ran into is "we should extend the series to milk as much money as we can (coherency can take a backseat)". I don't have visibility into BL's inner workings, but I think it might be a profit-maximising organisation. So understandable they did what they did and threw in the LE novella fiasco to cash out on hardcore fans.

 

The bar of consistency is simply anything marginally higher than what we actually got, which is again a very low bar. But I doubt BL itself set any higher bar as their stated policy is everything, and nothing, is canon. So really...I think this was not a case "we tried really hard but still failed". Maintaining consistency among the various workers likely wasn't high on the list of profit-generating priorities, especially in light of BL's stated canon policy.

[Noserenda]

I think i have read a LOT of shared universes over the years and they are always fairly inconsistent, in fact i think the HH is actually a fairly high standard compared to say, the Beast arises or New Jedi order. 

It stands to reason that actually, that level of consistency really IS hard to do.

[Scribe]

Have you read Saturnine and Vengeful Spirit? They cover those things

I have, they do not.

 

The only book that really checked off one of those items, was Master of Mankind.

 

Saturnine didn't cover any of them. (Spoilers: That's why I'm annoyed with the 540 page door stop.)

 

Vengeful Spirit touched on one of them, but was very unfocused as well if I remember, but that was a long time ago.

 

I've read everything I comment on, that's the source of my frustration. I'm literally paying to be annoyed.

[mc warhammer]

This is a bit ironic, as while you imply (with perhaps just a touch of snark) that I'm unreasonably downplaying the difficulty due to my lack of visibility...you conveniently do the opposite and play up the difficulty of maintaining some basic consistency despite your own lack of visibility.

 

but where's the eye-ron-ie tho? the lack of direct insight is a starting point for both of us, the difference in approach is the thing.

 

 not knowing means we can't dismiss possibilities or not knowing means we can dismiss them...because we know.

 

though, if "marginally higher" than what we got is the bar, then really, all we need is someone reminding mcneil of magnus' timeline and we.are.sorted.

Edited August 24, 2020 by mc warhammer

[mc warhammer]

I think i have read a LOT of shared universes over the years and they are always fairly inconsistent, in fact i think the HH is actually a fairly high standard compared to say, the Beast arises or New Jedi order. 

 

It stands to reason that actually, that level of consistency really IS hard to do.

 interested in any suggestions of shared universes with multiple authors with roughly the same amount of experience and cashflow as black library ( a little extra money goes a long way) and what the results were. the ones i've personally read are roughly at the same level of success as BL or just a smidgen tighter, but there's a a lot more to choose from.

Edited August 24, 2020 by mc warhammer

[mc warhammer]

 

Have you read Saturnine and Vengeful Spirit? They cover those things

I have, they do not.

 

The only book that really checked off one of those items, was Master of Mankind.

 

Saturnine didn't cover any of them. (Spoilers: That's why I'm annoyed with the 540 page door stop.)

 

Vengeful Spirit touched on one of them, but was very unfocused as well if I remember, but that was a long time ago.

 

I've read everything I comment on, that's the source of my frustration. I'm literally paying to be annoyed.

 

 

hate-reading is a thing

Edited August 24, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Scribe]

I've skipped plenty (2 books alone in the siege) sometimes it can't be helped.

[mc warhammer]

I've skipped plenty (2 books alone in the siege) sometimes it can't be helped.

i've got nothing against it. i've recently embraced the joys of hate-watching tv shows

 

out of curiosity, what made saturnine unskippable compared to (i'm going out on a limb here) lost and the damned or first wall?

[Scribe]

Abnett has written decent books (Know no Fear), I refuse to read Thorpe after he completely, undeniably, botched the Raven Guard arc, and like it or not Abnett is given room to flex muscles in the central meta plot that others choose not to.

 

As such, despite things like Unremembered Empire...pay up or miss the shifts in the lore.

[b1soul]

@ Noserenda

 

The Horus Heresy was intended to be, and is marketed as, a series...not a sprawling "shared universe" like Marvel comics or what have you

 

It became a rather sloppy shared universe because of (just my reasoned guess) the commercial priorities to extend and expand what could have been a fairly tight narrative into dozens upon dozens of sellable SKUs.

 

@ mcwarhammer

 

I'd also distinguish between the "difficulty" of ( A ) a challenge like formulating the foundation of quantum theory and ( B ) convincing yourself and your corporate colleagues (after the $$$$$$ start to roll in) that a tie-in series should be a tight, coherent narrative of no more than a dozen or so novels because literary quality-control > commercial profit-maxing. Heck, you may have a harder time with B than with A.

 

Consistency across a literary series is not an extremely difficult intellectual undertaking that stretches the limits of human capability or teamwork. It just takes a corporate greenlight, the desire to follow through, and a healthy amount of editorial sweat.

 

I think BL's commercial priorities made it harder to maintain consistency (ramping up quantity never helps in this area) and, perhaps more importantly, decreased the incentive for maintaining consistency. People will buy the books regardless of characters with shifting personalities, marines with changing homeworlds, time-line hiccups etc. Enforcing strict quality-control in this regard would involve relatively hight cost for relatively low reward. Why go to the trouble?

 

I again note that the "everything and nothing" policy is well-aligned with a sprawling (or meandering) HH "series" designed to have an extended sales life-span. The Limited Edition and re-release saturation of a few years back was also aligned with profit-driven motives. On top of that, some authours and editors genuinely feel that an individual work only needs to stand well on its own two feet, i.e. consistency across novels is a waste of effort...especially when they'll sell anyway.

 

All valid views...I think we may just be using the term difficulty in different ways

Edited August 24, 2020 by b1soul

[Noserenda]

As you keep dodging the question, can you name ANY series of this scope that actually had a tight and consistent narrative? You insist its an easy and basic thing to do but i dont think reality bears that out.

[b1soul]

As you keep dodging the question, can you name ANY series of this scope that actually had a tight and consistent narrative? You insist its an easy and basic thing to do but i dont think reality bears that out.

I don't think you're fully comprehending my position

 

Similar series would likely fall under the tie-in fiction category, with corporate/commercial priorities driving a fair chunk of the creative decision-making

 

Your argument is kinda like saying...YouTube doesn't run with the screen off, so it must be extremely difficult and a test of human ingenuity to design a video app capable of running with the screen off.

[Bobss]

 

I've skipped plenty (2 books alone in the siege) sometimes it can't be helped.

i've got nothing against it. i've recently embraced the joys of hate-watching tv shows

 

out of curiosity, what made saturnine unskippable compared to (i'm going out on a limb here) lost and the damned or first wall?

 

 

A) Dan Abnett

Bee) The Solar War covered a big, independent episode of the Siege within its covers. The Traitor Vanguard enters the Solar System. Horus contends the Solar War. The Siege of Terra begins. Idea and execution were all wrapped up here. I could've done with a bit more Perturabo pushing through Jupiter's colossal array of defences and Camba Diaz holding Mars against the horrors of the True/New/Dark Mechanicum, but there's only so many turbo lasers and plasma blasts and minefields you can read after a while. What I'm getting at here is that John French covered a sizeable portion of things in one book. The Lost and the Damned meanwhile is... what? The Traitors land on Terra and besiege the Palace? Is this really worth another entire The Solar War-sized episode? More like The Whole lot of Nothing. Sorry, but really. This book could've at least had much more regarding Traitor elements having fun on the rest of Terra in amongst all of these really interesting fantasy-pseudo-historical locations like John French did in all of the Solar System's void habitats. Or maybe a bigger focus on obtaining orbital and aerial superiority. There's some of that, sure, respect to Guy Haley for the attempt, but ultimately this book is just the first instance of bloat. Pure and simple. Guy Haley's prose, while never bad, isn't exactly mind-blowing in its own right and doesn't command the same ''it's Dan Abnett, just read it, bro'' respect that Dan the Man does. The First Wall has the same problem here. Maybe it's slightly better and more relevant and better written, maybe it's slightly worse and less relevant and worse-ly written. I can't tell - BUT, it still presents the same problem of bloat. When all is said and done, it's... what? Breaking the first wall? Uh, okay. We've all read Helsreach, right? Imagine if that book was just the sections of Grimaldus at the wall. The orks finally break the walls with their stompas and artillery and the- right, next book chaps! Now one Hive of Armageddon isn't exactly the Siege of Terra, but even still, I want a skeleton with just the right amount of meat on it. I feel like this was an attempt to create another one of those epic 'Sangy defends the Eternity Gate!' or 'The Khan recaptures the Lions Gate Spaceport!' legendary moments but sort of fell flat for me. Gav Thorpe's uninspired prose and the tabletop feeling of plastic models battling each other didn't gel with me either. Saturnine meanwhile is pure siege goodness. Gates. Walls. Underneath gates. Underneath walls. Combat everywhere. Fists knee-deep in mud. Bagels knee-deep in blood. Scars knee-deep in cud. Madness and chaos and grinding attrition everywhere, not this clean, clinical chessboard bollocks that I think has been hammed up too much. You know what the best Horus Heresy siege was until Saturnine? The Battle for Calastar. Ra and Krole and the Emps and the Big Robot Lady weren't measuring their rulers and rolling their dice: ''there's twenty demon models on this bridge - will one dreadnought suffice?'' It was just raw (fantasy) siege apocalyptica. Maybe I'm the only one who felt like this, which is fine because I'm ranting about my near-impossibly high standards, but one of my biggest litmus tests for Black Library fiction is whether I'm reading about space men representing plastic models fighting each other or whether I'm reading about beings fighting for the sake of their own universe. I'm gonna sound like a real dickbag saying this, but if The Solar War is your starter and the final few books are your dessert and that general incremental feeling of happiness throughout the meal, then Saturnine was the big chunky steak and chips in the middle. The Lost and the Damned and The First Wall were like having your waiter remove your dirty cutlery and present fresh ones. I paid my dues and bought the digital version, but they won't be adorning my bookshelf any time this century that's for sure

C) It's Dan Abnett

Edited August 24, 2020 by Bobss

[mc warhammer]

All valid views...I think we may just be using the term difficulty in different ways

 

 

i think we are. though you're framing the rebuttal in as silly way as possible.  as if "quantum physics of writing" is the only other possibility beyond the level you're prescribing.

 

at least we both acknowledge that creating a more "coherent" series can be harder, takes more money and more sweat than the alternative.

 

i've been in plenty of tv writer's rooms. they have firmly set parameters: x number of episodes, 60 pages a pop, all following on from one another, with the exact same cast of characters. an a plot, a few sub plots. planned; just the way you like it.

 

but ideas and themes and character arcs and story beats still get lost, forgotten, contradicted and ignored. those meetings have script editors and script coordinators and note takers who do everything professionally possible to avoid that. and it still happens.

 

because it's hard. and because humans

 

black library are currently pulling off a more coherent story with the siege books. and the fact that they can puts paid to the assertion that "all is canon" is somehow an irresistible invitation to write incompatible novels. it isn't. 

 

but it might be that they had to get through the sprawling experiment that was the horus heresy to figure out how best to do that. creativity is a constant experiment. black library is a young publisher in the scheme of things, with a fairly high turnover of staff and some tumultuous patches. they are learning. they learnt from the beast arises, they learnt from the horus heresy. they'll likely learn from the siege and from the dawn of fire stuff too.

 

also, black library is probably in a different financial situation today than they were 15 years ago. creative projects always need that blend of the practical, financial and creative to align (and whattaya know...here i am...back at my original point. nice to see ya again mate).

 

is a strong and consistent vision a good thing? yeah. it is. but you'd want someone with a lot of energy, authority and experience (i've seen film crews literally turn on the director part way through principal and it's ugly. for everyone on set but also the finished product) to wrangle adult creatives for the long haul.

 

did BL at the time of horus rising have a laurie goulding on board? and if they did, would his vision (untarnished by capitalism) have necessarily given us greatness? a finite series of 10 focused books doesn't immediately mean a better horus heresy than what we got. all it guarantees is that you get 10 books instead of 50.

Edited August 24, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Noserenda]

 

As you keep dodging the question, can you name ANY series of this scope that actually had a tight and consistent narrative? You insist its an easy and basic thing to do but i dont think reality bears that out.

I don't think you're fully comprehending my position

 

Similar series would likely fall under the tie-in fiction category, with corporate/commercial priorities driving a fair chunk of the creative decision-making

 

Your argument is kinda like saying...YouTube doesn't run with the screen off, so it must be extremely difficult and a test of human ingenuity to design a video app capable of running with the screen off.

 

 

No... My argument being ive easily read a dozen similar tie in series and none of them keep to what you are describing, even single author series suffer significant drift and bloat, my argument is that its inevitable on the scale these things operate at even when its relative titans like Star wars/trek or D&D.

 

Can you name a series which meets your "easy" standards?

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

As you keep dodging the question, can you name ANY series of this scope that actually had a tight and consistent narrative? You insist its an easy and basic thing to do but i dont think reality bears that out.

I don't think you're fully comprehending my position

 

Similar series would likely fall under the tie-in fiction category, with corporate/commercial priorities driving a fair chunk of the creative decision-making

 

Your argument is kinda like saying...YouTube doesn't run with the screen off, so it must be extremely difficult and a test of human ingenuity to design a video app capable of running with the screen off.

No... My argument being ive easily read a dozen similar tie in series and none of them keep to what you are describing, even single author series suffer significant drift and bloat, my argument is that its inevitable on the scale these things operate at even when its relative titans like Star wars/trek or D&D.

 

Can you name a series which meets your "easy" standards?

i'm also guessing the other properties don't have an "everything and nothing is canon" policy too

[Scribe]

 

 

 

As you keep dodging the question, can you name ANY series of this scope that actually had a tight and consistent narrative? You insist its an easy and basic thing to do but i dont think reality bears that out.

I don't think you're fully comprehending my position

 

Similar series would likely fall under the tie-in fiction category, with corporate/commercial priorities driving a fair chunk of the creative decision-making

 

Your argument is kinda like saying...YouTube doesn't run with the screen off, so it must be extremely difficult and a test of human ingenuity to design a video app capable of running with the screen off.

No... My argument being ive easily read a dozen similar tie in series and none of them keep to what you are describing, even single author series suffer significant drift and bloat, my argument is that its inevitable on the scale these things operate at even when its relative titans like Star wars/trek or D&D.

 

Can you name a series which meets your "easy" standards?

i'm also guessing the other properties don't have an "everything and nothing is canon" policy too

 

 

I despise that concept, probably more than anything else associated with GW.

[Fedor]

 

 

I've skipped plenty (2 books alone in the siege) sometimes it can't be helped.

i've got nothing against it. i've recently embraced the joys of hate-watching tv shows

 

out of curiosity, what made saturnine unskippable compared to (i'm going out on a limb here) lost and the damned or first wall?

 

 

A) Dan Abnett

Bee) The Solar War covered a big, independent episode of the Siege within its covers. The Traitor Vanguard enters the Solar System. Horus contends the Solar War. The Siege of Terra begins. Idea and execution were all wrapped up here. I could've done with a bit more Perturabo pushing through Jupiter's colossal array of defences and Camba Diaz holding Mars against the horrors of the True/New/Dark Mechanicum, but there's only so many turbo lasers and plasma blasts and minefields you can read after a while. What I'm getting at here is that John French covered a sizeable portion of things in one book. The Lost and the Damned meanwhile is... what? The Traitors land on Terra and besiege the Palace? Is this really worth another entire The Solar War-sized episode? More like The Whole lot of Nothing. Sorry, but really. This book could've at least had much more regarding Traitor elements having fun on the rest of Terra in amongst all of these really interesting fantasy-pseudo-historical locations like John French did in all of the Solar System's void habitats. Or maybe a bigger focus on obtaining orbital and aerial superiority. There's some of that, sure, respect to Guy Haley for the attempt, but ultimately this book is just the first instance of bloat. Pure and simple. Guy Haley's prose, while never bad, isn't exactly mind-blowing in its own right and doesn't command the same ''it's Dan Abnett, just read it, bro'' respect that Dan the Man does. The First Wall has the same problem here. Maybe it's slightly better and more relevant and better written, maybe it's slightly worse and less relevant and worse-ly written. I can't tell - BUT, it still presents the same problem of bloat. When all is said and done, it's... what? Breaking the first wall? Uh, okay. We've all read Helsreach, right? Imagine if that book was just the sections of Grimaldus at the wall. The orks finally break the walls with their stompas and artillery and the- right, next book chaps! Now one Hive of Armageddon isn't exactly the Siege of Terra, but even still, I want a skeleton with just the right amount of meat on it. I feel like this was an attempt to create another one of those epic 'Sangy defends the Eternity Gate!' or 'The Khan recaptures the Lions Gate Spaceport!' legendary moments but sort of fell flat for me. Gav Thorpe's uninspired prose and the tabletop feeling of plastic models battling each other didn't gel with me either. Saturnine meanwhile is pure siege goodness. Gates. Walls. Underneath gates. Underneath walls. Combat everywhere. Fists knee-deep in mud. Bagels knee-deep in blood. Scars knee-deep in cud. Madness and chaos and grinding attrition everywhere, not this clean, clinical chessboard bollocks that I think has been hammed up too much. You know what the best Horus Heresy siege was until Saturnine? The Battle for Calastar. Ra and Krole and the Emps and the Big Robot Lady weren't measuring their rulers and rolling their dice: ''there's twenty demon models on this bridge - will one dreadnought suffice?'' It was just raw (fantasy) siege apocalyptica. Maybe I'm the only one who felt like this, which is fine because I'm ranting about my near-impossibly high standards, but one of my biggest litmus tests for Black Library fiction is whether I'm reading about space men representing plastic models fighting each other or whether I'm reading about beings fighting for the sake of their own universe. I'm gonna sound like a real dickbag saying this, but if The Solar War is your starter and the final few books are your dessert and that general incremental feeling of happiness throughout the meal, then Saturnine was the big chunky steak and chips in the middle. The Lost and the Damned and The First Wall were like having your waiter remove your dirty cutlery and present fresh ones. I paid my dues and bought the digital version, but they won't be adorning my bookshelf any time this century that's for sure

C) It's Dan Abnett

 

My near-impossibly high standards...., christ, more like near impossibly-high pomposity.

[Scribe]

Seems unnecessary to go there.

 

Do those books add much or are they fluff/filler? Everything I've read says 'you can skip them'.

 

So, the analogy seems fine.

[Bobss]

 

 

 

I've skipped plenty (2 books alone in the siege) sometimes it can't be helped.

i've got nothing against it. i've recently embraced the joys of hate-watching tv shows

 

out of curiosity, what made saturnine unskippable compared to (i'm going out on a limb here) lost and the damned or first wall?

 

 

A) Dan Abnett

Bee) The Solar War covered a big, independent episode of the Siege within its covers. The Traitor Vanguard enters the Solar System. Horus contends the Solar War. The Siege of Terra begins. Idea and execution were all wrapped up here. I could've done with a bit more Perturabo pushing through Jupiter's colossal array of defences and Camba Diaz holding Mars against the horrors of the True/New/Dark Mechanicum, but there's only so many turbo lasers and plasma blasts and minefields you can read after a while. What I'm getting at here is that John French covered a sizeable portion of things in one book. The Lost and the Damned meanwhile is... what? The Traitors land on Terra and besiege the Palace? Is this really worth another entire The Solar War-sized episode? More like The Whole lot of Nothing. Sorry, but really. This book could've at least had much more regarding Traitor elements having fun on the rest of Terra in amongst all of these really interesting fantasy-pseudo-historical locations like John French did in all of the Solar System's void habitats. Or maybe a bigger focus on obtaining orbital and aerial superiority. There's some of that, sure, respect to Guy Haley for the attempt, but ultimately this book is just the first instance of bloat. Pure and simple. Guy Haley's prose, while never bad, isn't exactly mind-blowing in its own right and doesn't command the same ''it's Dan Abnett, just read it, bro'' respect that Dan the Man does. The First Wall has the same problem here. Maybe it's slightly better and more relevant and better written, maybe it's slightly worse and less relevant and worse-ly written. I can't tell - BUT, it still presents the same problem of bloat. When all is said and done, it's... what? Breaking the first wall? Uh, okay. We've all read Helsreach, right? Imagine if that book was just the sections of Grimaldus at the wall. The orks finally break the walls with their stompas and artillery and the- right, next book chaps! Now one Hive of Armageddon isn't exactly the Siege of Terra, but even still, I want a skeleton with just the right amount of meat on it. I feel like this was an attempt to create another one of those epic 'Sangy defends the Eternity Gate!' or 'The Khan recaptures the Lions Gate Spaceport!' legendary moments but sort of fell flat for me. Gav Thorpe's uninspired prose and the tabletop feeling of plastic models battling each other didn't gel with me either. Saturnine meanwhile is pure siege goodness. Gates. Walls. Underneath gates. Underneath walls. Combat everywhere. Fists knee-deep in mud. Bagels knee-deep in blood. Scars knee-deep in cud. Madness and chaos and grinding attrition everywhere, not this clean, clinical chessboard bollocks that I think has been hammed up too much. You know what the best Horus Heresy siege was until Saturnine? The Battle for Calastar. Ra and Krole and the Emps and the Big Robot Lady weren't measuring their rulers and rolling their dice: ''there's twenty demon models on this bridge - will one dreadnought suffice?'' It was just raw (fantasy) siege apocalyptica. Maybe I'm the only one who felt like this, which is fine because I'm ranting about my near-impossibly high standards, but one of my biggest litmus tests for Black Library fiction is whether I'm reading about space men representing plastic models fighting each other or whether I'm reading about beings fighting for the sake of their own universe. I'm gonna sound like a real dickbag saying this, but if The Solar War is your starter and the final few books are your dessert and that general incremental feeling of happiness throughout the meal, then Saturnine was the big chunky steak and chips in the middle. The Lost and the Damned and The First Wall were like having your waiter remove your dirty cutlery and present fresh ones. I paid my dues and bought the digital version, but they won't be adorning my bookshelf any time this century that's for sure

C) It's Dan Abnett

 

My near-impossibly high standards...., christ, more like near impossibly-high pomposity.

 

 

Sorry for the purple prose there, mate. I was trying to say that the reason they're skippable is because they're

Edited August 24, 2020 by Bobss