What's the Point of the Horus Heresy Now?

[Scribe]

I mean when you put it that way and force a 'nobody wins here scenario'...I agree.

 

Give me the mess.

 

Once all is said and done, I'll curate my own series, and build that collection for the bookshelf.

[DarkChaplain]

I definitely agree with Roomsky (apart from that "books by Abnett, flawlessly tying everything together" line, which just gave me Unremembered Empire flashbacks for some reason).

A straight, short series would've deprived us of a lot of gems, a lot of characters that became hugely popular, and a lot of the scope of the galactic civil war. Of course, you could argue that the scope also shrank in the later series due to the increased focus on Primarchs and a select few characters, but that wasn't a problem with the format itself, but with shifting perspectives on part of both authors and what readers expected/demanded.

[Brother Lunkhead]

As long as we're speculating here, I think there's an additional scenario to consider. Granted, the original concept was to stick to a tight series of about 12 books and that would be that. Once BL realized they had a runaway hit on their hands they let it do just that...... runaway. What would have happened if they hadn't lost their heads and focus? They could have stuck with the same basic concept but expanded it to...... maybe 18 to 20 books. If the HH cabal had stayed with focusing the series on main events from the rise and fall of Horus to the Siege of Terra we could have gotten better quality, avoided the bloat, as well as reader burn out and writer burn out (I'd wager there was a lot of that too). This would have given BL the incentive and authors space to fill in the gaps with an ongoing HH imprint series almost indefinitely.

 

Ah well.....wouldacouldashoulda

[MegaVolt87]

The HH just wasn't tight enough in its narrative. Ideally each legion should have had a tight 3 book arc of- setup/intro, lead up events to a fall/ re-affirmed loyalty, full blown traitor/ loyalist but kicking. Then each primarch novel is a capstone to each three book arc. Padded out with short stories set post 3rd book, primarch short stories that happened before the third book for extra flavour, keeping in mind what happened in the 3 book arc and the primarch books so as not to contradict things. It feels like a combination of poor overall editorial oversight and author ego/ puffery for creativity over a cohesive narrative with depth. The stand alone books such as mechanicum, titandeath etc work out fine actually as is. If certain arcs were stand alone, such as knights errant they would have focused their arcs more effectively. Buried dagger should have been three books IMO- Morty's primarch book, the capstone knight errant arc conclusion, the proper setup for the DG fall. It had the three things I wanted to see and failed by trying to tell me all at the same time and failed to execute it properly. Its a shame, I would like to see a re-write after the seige arc to fix the HH properly, its got good bones that can be fixed IMO. 

[DarkChaplain]

So we'd still be looking at 18x3 novels, with a LOT of overlap / a damn lot of dependencies yet again, intertwined plotlines either being half-bummed or being yet again additional books on top, and then another 18 books to cap the arcs off, AND another batch of anthologies? And that's just the Legions, not something like the Grey Knights, or Imperial Army, or the "civil" part of the galactic civil war.

 

....I cannot possibly see this as supporting a tighter narrative on the series level. Besides, a bunch of Legions got two novels and a few shorts throughout anthologies, and people still were upset about them "wasting" time covering those, even though they followed a proper arc (see: Raven Guard).

 

And it's not even like the Heresy doesn't follow story arcs - they're just shared, not "this is the Ultramarines arc, this is the Word Bearers arc" and so forth. And that's increasingly how it should be, in my opinion. Individual Legion books work best early on, leading up to the Heresy, but the further on the war went, the more overlap you'd have, especially en route to Terra.

[Scribe]

I think you can easily trim the fat, and still cover not only every legion, but also the main thrust of the heresy.

 

I guess that begs the question, what is the essential parts of the Heresy itself, what is it that the series is really trying to cover.

 

The fall of the dream of the Imperium? The tragedy of the Emperor himself? Is it just the Astartes rebellion?

 

All of the above? And if so, then what are the critical books.

[DukeLeto69]

This whole conundrum is impossible to solve. I just look at it from the other direction and say what out of all of what we actually got would stay and what could go.

 

My mind changes but I would lose:

 

Battle for the Abyss

Angel Exterminatus

Damnation of Pythos

 

I would substantially reduce the Vulkan arc (no need for 4 books)

 

I would substantially change/reduce the Garro/Knights Errant arc including Buried Dagger.

 

I would reduce the Dark Angels arc (and have more focus on Thramas rather than before the Heresy - use Primarch book for that)

 

I would do something (not sure what) to improve Magnus’ arc.

 

And finally even as a massive Abnett fan I would send him back to the drawing board on Unremembered Empire and tell him to focus on the politics and heresy of Imperium Secundus and drop the Marvel superhero crap we got with the duelling Primarchs (who all conveniently end up on same planet).

 

The rest can pretty much stay as is (though, for example, reducing Knights Errant mean a book like Vengeful Spirit can focus more tightly on Horus and SoH).

Edited September 2, 2020 by DukeLeto69

[mc warhammer]

i think my previous rambles show i'm probably more in line with roomsky and darkchaplain here

 

"horus rising" came out in 2006, and if they'd planned a tight 20 book series at the time with the team they had at the time, i'm not convinced that the overall quality would be better than what we got. some of the best books were in reaction to other books or discussions or meetings that came about because of the sprawling nature of the heresy as is.

 

it's dependent on so many variables. we have a focused 8 book siege series, and still the complaints are high.

 

it's easy/easier to "trim the fat" looking back.  and really, we can somewhat do that ourselves. i have only read what i considered to be the key books, and i've ended up 80% happy.

[mc warhammer]

This whole conundrum is impossible to solve. I just look at it from the other direction and say what out of all of what we actually got would stay and what could go.

 

My mind changes but I would lose:

 

Battle for the Abyss

Angel Exterminatus

Damnation of Pythos

 

I would substantially reduce the Vulkan arc (no need for 4 books)

 

I would substantially change/reduce the Garro/Knights Errant arc including Buried Dagger.

 

I would reduce the Dark Angels arc (and have more focus on Thramas rather than before the Heresy - use Primarch book for that)

 

I would do something (not sure what) to improve Magnus’ arc.

 

And finally even as a massive Abnett fan I would send him back to the drawing board on Unremembered Empire and tell him to focus on the politics and heresy of Imperium Secundus and drop the Marvel superhero crap we got with the duelling Primarchs (who all conveniently end up on same planet).

 

The rest can pretty much stay as is (though, for example, reducing Knights Errant mean a book like Vengeful Spirit can focus more tightly on Horus and SoH).

 

i skipped vulcan, shattered legions , dark angels and garro plots almost completely. but for them to have kept churning more out suggests to me...someone must have been buying them?

[DukeLeto69]

Well I have bought every novel/anthology (in MMPB) and maybe half the audiodramas so for BL I am a fairly good consumer. Means I have a nice collection in the shelf but as per above a fair few I wish I hadn’t spent hours reading!

 

Some folks bought (and bought again) all in hardback!

 

What I am trying to say (badly) is that I think HH had a high baseline of sales to milk.

Edited September 2, 2020 by DukeLeto69

[mc warhammer]

my bad, i forget about completionists and hobbyist buying habits. i'm a filthy casual

[Karhedron]

My mind changes but I would lose:

 

Battle for the Abyss

Angel Exterminatus

Damnation of Pythos

I agree with 2 of the 3 but Angel Exterminatus is a pretty good book IMHO. It is one of the first to give some decent insight into Perturabo (who had not featured much up until that point) as well as featuring Fulgrim's ascension. It surprised me that he was the first Primarch to reach daemonhood. It also reaffirms the Eldar's fall and the formation of the EoT.

 

Nemesis and Outcast Dead both strike me as pretty uninspiring. Nemesis seemed like such a blatant plug of the new Assassin models while Outcast Dead has an ending that basically invalidates the plot. You could level the same criticism at Flight of the Eisenstein but that is a far better book.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Karhedron

[byrd9999]

With hindsight, some changes could have been made:

 

- Descent of Angels (which I enjoyed) would become a Primarchs book

- Battle for the Abyss would be soul-blasted back into the Warp

- Damnation of Pythos (which I also enjoyed) would be shifted to the Horror range.

 

But, even with a streamlined HH series, there is no alternative timeline in which we escape James Swallow writing Fear to Tread. It's an essential plot line written by an integral HH author. I think part of the problem is that some of the books are just bad. If every book was great, a 60-book series is no problem.

 

Overall, I will stick with what we got because it's better to have the gems among the turds than to lose most of it (and i like Unremembered Empire :) )

[Xisor]

Roomsky's obvious but unstated solution is plain - don't go for the big-name Marine Captain Protagonist & Sergeant Friend churning authors.

 

Who else is in BL at the time?

 

Matt Farrer, Gordon Rennie's ship has not necessarily sailed, Lucien Soulban's right there, Rob Earl and Clint Werner could have been poached from WHFB...

 

There's no pressing reason it needed to be McNeill, Counter, Swallow etc.

 

If you're gonna dream, might as well dream big.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Xisor

[DukeLeto69]

 

My mind changes but I would lose:

 

Battle for the Abyss

Angel Exterminatus

Damnation of Pythos

I agree with 2 of the 3 but Angel Exterminatus is a pretty good book IMHO. It is one of the first to give some decent insight into Perturabo (who had not featured much up until that point) as well as featuring Fulgrim's ascension. It surprised me that he was the first Primarch to reach daemonhood. It also reaffirms the Eldar's fall and the formation of the EoT.

 

Nemesis and Outcast Dead both strike me as pretty uninspiring. Nemesis seemed like such a blatant plug of the new Assassin models while Outcast Dead has an ending that basically invalidates the plot. You could level the same criticism at Flight of the Eisenstein but that is a far better book.

And therein lies the rub. For many the choices would be subjective. There are few notable exceptions (I think BFTA is universally loathed?) but I enjoyed Nemesis (as it moved action away from all Astartes - though a bit anime/manga perhaps) and actually really liked Outcast Dead (especially premise) apart from THAT mistake.

 

Fear To Tread has to be there but my feelings towards the execution are mixed. It was okaaaay but not great.

 

As for Angel Exterminatus I just lost interest and it is one of the few books I never finished. Perhaps I should but I got bored!

Edited September 2, 2020 by DukeLeto69

[DukeLeto69]

Roomsky's obvious but unstated solution is plain - don't go for the big-name Marine Captain Protagonist & Sergeant Friend churning authors.

 

Who else is in BL at the time?

 

Matt Farrer, Gordon Rennie's ship has not necessarily sailed, Lucien Soulban's right there, Rob Earl and Clint Werner could have been poached from WHFB...

 

There's no pressing reason it needed to be McNeill, Counter, Swallow etc.

 

If you're gonna dream, might as well dream big.

Gonna go out on a limb here and say in 2005/6 Abnett, McNeil, Swallow and Counter were the four biggest selling writers in the BL stable hence why they got the gig.

[Xisor]

 

Roomsky's obvious but unstated solution is plain - don't go for the big-name Marine Captain Protagonist & Sergeant Friend churning authors.

 

Who else is in BL at the time?

 

Matt Farrer, Gordon Rennie's ship has not necessarily sailed, Lucien Soulban's right there, Rob Earl and Clint Werner could have been poached from WHFB...

 

There's no pressing reason it needed to be McNeill, Counter, Swallow etc.

 

If you're gonna dream, might as well dream big.

Gonna go out on a limb here and say in 2005/6 Abnett, McNeil, Swallow and Counter were the four biggest selling writers in the BL stable hence why they got the gig.

Yes, that's kinda my point. It might be true, but even so it doesn't necessarily follow that they must therefore write it. Edited September 2, 2020 by Xisor

[DukeLeto69]

Yeah but if you are gonna launch a new series (9-12 books or otherwise) about THE most important historical event in history of W40k you are gonna put the writers on it that shift volume.

 

I agree it was a crime Farrer never got a novel but hey ho!

[Jareddm]

 

 

Roomsky's obvious but unstated solution is plain - don't go for the big-name Marine Captain Protagonist & Sergeant Friend churning authors.

 

Who else is in BL at the time?

 

Matt Farrer, Gordon Rennie's ship has not necessarily sailed, Lucien Soulban's right there, Rob Earl and Clint Werner could have been poached from WHFB...

 

There's no pressing reason it needed to be McNeill, Counter, Swallow etc.

 

If you're gonna dream, might as well dream big.

Gonna go out on a limb here and say in 2005/6 Abnett, McNeil, Swallow and Counter were the four biggest selling writers in the BL stable hence why they got the gig.

Yes, that's kinda my point. It might be true, but even so it doesn't necessarily follow that they must therefore write it.

 

There are two authors that can't be forgotten (no matter how much we try).  Kyme and Thorpe's positions of authority in BL make it unrealistic to exclude them.  They'd get their own books in the series, no matter what.

[Fedor]

Excluding Abyss means we would lose the inspiring journey of Brynngar saving Macragge. Last stand of the old school space wolves.

[bluntblade]

This whole conundrum is impossible to solve. I just look at it from the other direction and say what out of all of what we actually got would stay and what could go.

 

My mind changes but I would lose:

 

Battle for the Abyss

Angel Exterminatus

Damnation of Pythos

 

I would substantially reduce the Vulkan arc (no need for 4 books)

 

I would substantially change/reduce the Garro/Knights Errant arc including Buried Dagger.

 

I would reduce the Dark Angels arc (and have more focus on Thramas rather than before the Heresy - use Primarch book for that)

 

I would do something (not sure what) to improve Magnus’ arc.

 

And finally even as a massive Abnett fan I would send him back to the drawing board on Unremembered Empire and tell him to focus on the politics and heresy of Imperium Secundus and drop the Marvel superhero crap we got with the duelling Primarchs (who all conveniently end up on same planet).

 

The rest can pretty much stay as is (though, for example, reducing Knights Errant mean a book like Vengeful Spirit can focus more tightly on Horus and SoH).

I feel like this is more the purview of the headcanon thread, but I'm game to dig that up again.

[Scribe]

Yeah, we could go down that rabbit hole, but if we had a defined 'this is what the heresy is' I still think a fan curated list would provide a more coherent and focused series.

 

Maybe it still pushes 30 books I don't know yet, but there's no way all if this is needed.

[DukeLeto69]

@bluntblade not sure I agree my post is headcannon. This thread has ebbed and flowed around how we might change the HH series (which tenuously tied into OP’s point).

 

Head Cannon is surely how you would change the lore. This was more about how we would change editorial/publication decisions for the HH series?

[Bobss]

Roomsky is right: I would take 99 Vulkan Lives for just one The Path of Heaven

[Scribe]

Right, but is anything lost by not reading it?

 

I don't think so, so in my series I would exclude the whole Vulkan arc.