What's the Point of the Horus Heresy Now?

[Scribe]

The ultimate sin, is that it could have been both. I firmly believe a tightly crafted narrative around the heresy could have been written, and you could spin off multiple books into a series, that dips in and out of the 'main' narrative as needed.

[Fedor]

At the end of the day it just seems some like Volt and Scribe wanted a very textbook excercise out of the series.

 

A tightly plotted classical tragedy. A formal composition.

 

I find the idea deeply tedious and just not in the spirit of what 40k ever has been. The basic idea of the Emperor, Horus and his Heresy is not an idea that brings anything new or interesting to the table if you go down that route. There's a multitude of mythological, religious and literary/Genre works that have already done material like this. You could do it in one short book and be done with it, with all the character development you would ever need. In fact with 4 books still to go it's still possible we'll end up with more than we ever need 5 times over in terms of showing us these two archetypal characters motivation (this is assuming it's actually true we've been given absolutely nothing for either character over the series as Volt suggests).

 

None of which really needs to be deep or convoluted, certainly i don't recall many intricate motivations in the classics Volt keeps alluding to, most are simplistic works that call to the basic nature of human emotion and were meant to be easily understood by all. I'm no big fan of how McNeill handled Horus fall, but in all honesty it fits right in with the simplicity of these kind of mythological and religious tales of betrayal. Abnett already did enough set up character work for Horus in the first book to match what ol' Satan got too.

 

40k has always been a huge melting pot of things picked from here and there, mixed and stirred together. Chaotic pulp sci-fi fantasy.  It's more Frank zappa and Moorcock/60s-80s ci-fi fantasy scene than a singular piece from Beethoven or a tight play by Shakespeare. So give me my big sprawling mess i can dig through for the parts that entertain me, and hopefully leave the setting open to add character work here and there too.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Fedor

[Lord_Caerolion]

I mean, this whole thing is irrelevant nerd trivia, really. Is any of this truly necessary? The 40k universe worked just fine for decades with the only info on the Horus Heresy directly about Horus/Emps being "Horus went traitor at Istvaan, blew up a planet, massacred some other Legions, then stuff happened, and he invaded Terra and got killed by the Emperor while mortally wounding him, the end". You'd be equally able to argue that anything more than that is irrelevant nerd trivia.

 

How boiled down should we make it, a single book for Horus' fall and Istvaan, the previous gap of 7 years of "well stuff happened, but it isn't important enough to say why", then a book for the Siege of Terra? That was the story of Horus' role in the Horus Heresy before these novels, after all. Mortarion and the Death Guard just suddenly appearing as zombies after Istvaan, and it getting glossed over as to why because it doesn't directly relate to Horus fighting the Emperor? Nothing whatsoever on any Legion that wasn't on Istvaan or Terra?

Edited September 7, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[mc warhammer]

yeah, part of the power of the heresy lore up to the point of black library's involvement was that it leaned very heavily on suggesting familiar tropes from established and well loved myths (iliad, the bible, even dune and some real world history) that were its points of inspiration and left the rest up to the readership's imagination to create all the connective tissue.

 

none of it was particularly well written, but it was clever and got the imagination going.

[Scribe]

At the end of the day it just seems some like Volt and Scribe wanted a very textbook excercise out of the series.

 

A tightly plotted classical tragedy. A formal composition.

 

I find the idea deeply tedious and just not in the spirit of what 40k ever has been. The basic idea of the Emperor, Horus and his Heresy is not an idea that brings anything new or interesting to the table if you go down that route. There's a multitude of mythological, religious and literary/Genre works that have already done material like this. You could do it in one short book and be done with it, with all the character development you would ever need. In fact with 4 books still to go it's still possible we'll end up with more than we ever need 5 times over in terms of showing us these two archetypal characters motivation (this is assuming it's actually true we've been given absolutely nothing for either character over the series as Volt suggests).

 

I certainly wanted a tightly woven story, of the Horus Heresy, with the motivations, relationships, and plot points that were pointed to in the past.

 

I dont believe for a moment you should have done it properly in one short book. :p

[Scribe]

I mean, this whole thing is irrelevant nerd trivia, really. Is any of this truly necessary? The 40k universe worked just fine for decades with the only info on the Horus Heresy directly about Horus/Emps being "Horus went traitor at Istvaan, blew up a planet, massacred some other Legions, then stuff happened, and he invaded Terra and got killed by the Emperor while mortally wounding him, the end". You'd be equally able to argue that anything more than that is irrelevant nerd trivia.

 

How boiled down should we make it, a single book for Horus' fall and Istvaan, the previous gap of 7 years of "well stuff happened, but it isn't important enough to say why", then a book for the Siege of Terra? That was the story of Horus' role in the Horus Heresy before these novels, after all. Mortarion and the Death Guard just suddenly appearing as zombies after Istvaan, and it getting glossed over as to why because it doesn't directly relate to Horus fighting the Emperor? Nothing whatsoever on any Legion that wasn't on Istvaan or Terra?

 

You could have filled it all in if they had just hit the right notes throughout! lol

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I mean, this whole thing is irrelevant nerd trivia, really. Is any of this truly necessary? The 40k universe worked just fine for decades with the only info on the Horus Heresy directly about Horus/Emps being "Horus went traitor at Istvaan, blew up a planet, massacred some other Legions, then stuff happened, and he invaded Terra and got killed by the Emperor while mortally wounding him, the end". You'd be equally able to argue that anything more than that is irrelevant nerd trivia.

 

How boiled down should we make it, a single book for Horus' fall and Istvaan, the previous gap of 7 years of "well stuff happened, but it isn't important enough to say why", then a book for the Siege of Terra? That was the story of Horus' role in the Horus Heresy before these novels, after all. Mortarion and the Death Guard just suddenly appearing as zombies after Istvaan, and it getting glossed over as to why because it doesn't directly relate to Horus fighting the Emperor? Nothing whatsoever on any Legion that wasn't on Istvaan or Terra?

 

You could have filled it all in if they had just hit the right notes throughout! lol

 

 

They could have, yes, but the argument here that dismissing parts of the story as pointless "nerd trivia" is just a teensy bit hypocritical, because the whole thing is exactly that. What is and isn't trivia depends entirely on your standing. Could the story have been told better? Absolutely yes. Arguing it should be cut down to just the "core elements", though? What do you class as core elements? Does the Burning of Prospero fit into that, given how integral it is to the Heresy, or is it "non-core", as it doesn't directly involve Horus or the Emperor? For decades, the middle of the Heresy has been left as "stuff happens" with no detail whatsoever. Does that mean the bulk of the actual Horus Heresy is outside the scope of this stripped-down series, so we go straight from Istvaan to Terra? Those 7 years haven't been integral to the story before, so why pad it out now with needless faff?

 

This idea of "if it doesn't relate directly to Horus or the Emperor it has no place in the Horus Heresy" would end up in a plot-hole ridden mess, with so much happening "off-camera" because they occur within their own separate arcs that aren't inherently related to Horus/Emps. Why is the arrival of the Ultramarines suddenly so scary? We've never really dealt with them before, because they're not part of the core narrative. Same with the Space Wolves/Dark Angels. Why are the Death Guard suddenly all morbidly obese zombies? Why is Fulgrim now a snake demon? 

 

We're dealing with a galaxy-wide civil war. Arguing that the Horus Heresy should only ever deal with the direct conflict between Horus and the Emperor, and everything else is secondary, shrinks the scale and complexity of the conflict immensely. 

 

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, we can absolutely do without "here's 5 books of the Salamanders moping about and chanting that Vulkan Lives to themselves before trying to parody the Odyssey", and having the Dark Angels books be nothing but the author mugging at the camera asking "hey, doesn't it seem like these guys might fight themselves later? Wouldn't that just suck, and be so tragic, amirite guys? Doesn't it seem like that?"

 

Horus may have been the key player in the Heresy, but the Horus Heresy is the story of all the Legions/Primarchs, and how their struggle doomed the Imperium. To write off everything unless it deals specifically with the Emperor/Horus conflict is just a knee-jerk reaction to the admittedly bloated mess that we got. It doesn't, however, make it the right thing.

 

After all, if it were simplified, that means that even more of it would have been in the hands of Abnett. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Scribe]

 

Horus may have been the key player in the Heresy, but the Horus Heresy is the story of all the Legions/Primarchs, and how their struggle doomed the Imperium. To write off everything unless it deals specifically with the Emperor/Horus conflict is just a knee-jerk reaction to the admittedly bloated mess that we got. It doesn't, however, make it the right thing.

 

 

Thats not what I'm saying though.

 

The penultimate question here, is what is the Heresy really about.

 

It could cover so many things, because yes to write it all off would miss many of the side plots that do ultimately matter, but we didnt even hit the main notes with any kind of satisfaction, and they flat out invented useless things for...reasons.

 

They could have set up the Emperor/Horus relationship. This by rights SHOULD have mattered more.

They could have set up Horus' fall better. This is...mind boggling shallow.

They could have actually STUCK TO THE SCRIPT and let the Shattered Legions be shattered.

They could have actually STUCK TO THE SCRIPT with the Blood Angels.

They could have STUCK TO THE SCRIPT and not changed the Raven Guard arc.

They could have simply NOT written a million books (ok it was mostly one guy) about the Salamanders.

They could have STUCK TO THE SCRIPT and let the TKS and Wolves destroy each other and LEFT IT AT THAT. Executioners?! Watch Packs?!

They could have left the Knights Errants...well as some side script completely.

 

I could go on all night as its been a bad week, and I'm sick of :cussing Covid wrecking everything.

 

Essentially.

 

Define the Heresy better, by asking and answering 'What really is the Heresy all about and why do I care'.

Hit all the main plot points. Drive a 'meta plot series' and a '30K Setting Series'.

Dont retcon or reinvent the wheel. (Raven Guard!!!)

Dont inject a bunch of stuff that doesnt matter. (Errants, and Perpetuals are way up here for me.)

 

Apologies though guys, I'm super on tilt tonight.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yep, and I'd not said that you said that. It was Volt.

 

 

The problem is that the sweeping scope of the concept comes at the detriment of all, degrading the book series to focus on irrelevant nerd trivia regarding who was doing what instead of focusing on the nature of the driving actions of the core narrative. If we need background lore details that function is provided by the Black Books made with the express purpose of fleshing things out. Primarchs should get coverage, but when their story is relevant to the main thrust of Horus' fall and the Emperor's hubris. Otherwise you get bloated threads off the yarn that are nothing more than gratuitous fan service.

 

Trust me, I agree with you. I just don't want the baby thrown out with the bathwater.

[mc warhammer]

if there's one thing i think the majority of people on this thread can find common ground on, it's wanting more focus and clearer writing on horus and his legion throughout the series. that could still have happened while giving us shattered legions, knight errants etc. why it didn't is beyond me.

 

with the emps, none of the authors, adb included seemed to think that focusing more on him was a good move. * insert shrug emoji *

[Scribe]

 

with the emps, none of the authors, adb included seemed to think that focusing more on him was a good move. * insert shrug emoji *

 

Its gonna be wild if they dont give us any kind of closure with regards to the Emperor and well, everything, at the end of the Series.

[mc warhammer]

i'm really curious to see how that plays out

[Scribe]

Honestly only reason I'm still buying the 30K books at all is to see how it wraps the major plot line.

[Karhedron]

Dont inject a bunch of stuff that doesnt matter. (Errants, and Perpetuals are way up here for me.)

The point is that it only doesn't matter to you. Other people may feel differently. I actually really enjoyed the Raven Guard stuff (despite not normally being a big fan of Gav Thorpe) because it showed that the "shattered" Legions didn't simply give up after Istvaan. That would have been really boring. They were trying to find a way to help. It also ties in with the old Index Astartes Raven Guard fluff about Corax creating monstrous marines to try and rebuild his legion. Now we know what he did and why it failed (even if the answer is "chaos did it").

 

One man's drink is another man's poison. If you prefer a tightly plotted core-arc then that is fine but some people enjoy a broader tapestry. I grew up on Babylon 5 in the 90s which was the first TV series to attempt to tell a huge story arc covering 5 years. Like the HH it had some duff episodes and a few storylines along the way that were not particularly satisfying but the scope and the broad tapestry was impressive. You could argue that Babylon 5 was the story of the Shadow War and everything not related to that could be skipped but by that logic you would lose half the episodes and miss out on important character development. Sometimes a lot happens in "non-core" stories that explain why characters act the way they do in core stories.

 

It may not be your personal cup of tea but to others it is good stuff. For better or worse, BL opted to tell a "broad tapestry" story. Arguably there should have been more focus on the Emperor and Horus but some of the good stories have been about the personal journeys of other Primarchs. I was not particularly interested in Corax or the RG until Deliverance Lost but I ended up really enjoying their arc. I also think "Know no Fear" is a great story despite no sign of Horus or the Emperor. It is a really well written book that shows why the UMs have a tactical edge (rather than just telling). Is it core to the Heresy? Possibly not. But it is one of the best books in the series.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Karhedron

[mc warhammer]

the last thing sanguinnius sees before he dies is the emperor entering the chat

 

then black

 

cut to ewoks dancing

[Scribe]

 

Dont inject a bunch of stuff that doesnt matter. (Errants, and Perpetuals are way up here for me.)

It also ties in with the old Index Astartes Raven Guard fluff about Corax creating monstrous marines to try and rebuild his legion. Now we know what he did and why it failed (even if the answer is "chaos did it").

 

 

No, it retconned it. That could have easily been the arc, that SHOULD have been the arc. Instead they allowed him to succeed at doing better than the Emperor, and if not for 'chaos did it', he would have gotten away with a completely out of sync 'win' for the imperials.

 

Glad you enjoyed it, its one of the most egregious mistakes in the series to me.

[Petitioner's City]

This is an emotive discussion; I'm not sure how easy it is to contribute to.

 

I tend to join on the side of the lackadaisical pace allowed really beautiful gems to happen which wouldn't have otherwise, and meant that new authors could contribute in a way that wouldn't have been possible 15 years ago if there had been a tight series (as the opening trilogy was, a too tight trilogy that cut down on the chance for slow development).

 

Of the series, I'm not sure everything was a good step, and I fully agree that the Emperor and Horus could have been more focal, the fall something less "immediately evil" to ensure we didn't have 20 or 50 books of Saturday morning Horus (if he had been focal), etc, but I admire the ambition of many tales or more so many ideas within the heresy label. And I really appreciate the work of those later authors - Dembski-Bowden, Wraight, French, Haley,, who started writing for the series only 3 or 6 or 9 years in - alongside Abnett's works, as well as the impact Bligh, French, Hoare, Wylie's work on the Black Books had on the series (which probably wouldn't have happened without the novels either).

Edited September 7, 2020 by Petitioner's City

[DarkChaplain]

 

 

Dont inject a bunch of stuff that doesnt matter. (Errants, and Perpetuals are way up here for me.)

It also ties in with the old Index Astartes Raven Guard fluff about Corax creating monstrous marines to try and rebuild his legion. Now we know what he did and why it failed (even if the answer is "chaos did it").

 

 

No, it retconned it. That could have easily been the arc, that SHOULD have been the arc. Instead they allowed him to succeed at doing better than the Emperor, and if not for 'chaos did it', he would have gotten away with a completely out of sync 'win' for the imperials.

 

Glad you enjoyed it, its one of the most egregious mistakes in the series to me.

 

 

He really just created "purer" Astartes by injecting more of the Primarch-gene-tech into their gene-seed while accelerating growth. It's hardly that big of a deal, considering he had access to the original Primarch project gene-caches and the green light from daddy.

 

The only issue would be if the Emperor couldn't have done the same. But he could have, and easily so. He just did not need or want to, because as far as the Great Crusade was concerned, the Legiones Astartes were more than fit for purpose - they bloody succeeded with reconquering almost the entire galaxy, up until the fall. Why make them more powerful individuals when he has no real use-case for it? Corax, meanwhile, needed faster recruitment. Unlike the Legions throughout the Crusade, his attrition rates were disastrous. And he couldn't invest a decade to get through the recruitment and enhancement processes. The Emperor could - he was playing the long game all along, anyway.

 

Now whether Corax's failure should've been due to his own hubris or Chaos-via-AL-but-he-thinks-he's-at-fault is open for debate, but that he achieved what he set out to is hardly rocket science within context.

[Scribe]

If it's not rocket science, considering they were markedly better if I remember, then its flawed there as well. Why didnt everyone do it? 

 

It should have been forbidden science. It should have been a massive risk. It should have been a clear failure, and a Legion then slipping off into the background with a Primarch shamed at what he's created.

 

The change to the arc was unnecessary and added nothing. Just another retcon for the sake of an author wanting to do it.

[Karhedron]

The change to the arc was unnecessary and added nothing. Just another retcon for the sake of an author wanting to do it.

What you consider unnecessary, I consider a decent and interesting story. I am glad I read it as I had no previous interest in the Raven Guard, considering them just another Legion/Chapter of black Marines. This story added complexity and depth to them. I think it is fair to say different people probably wanted and expected different things from the series.

[Scribe]

You could have gotten your story without the change. Thats all I am saying. 

[Volt]

 

The change to the arc was unnecessary and added nothing. Just another retcon for the sake of an author wanting to do it.

What you consider unnecessary, I consider a decent and interesting story. I am glad I read it as I had no previous interest in the Raven Guard, considering them just another Legion/Chapter of black Marines. This story added complexity and depth to them. I think it is fair to say different people probably wanted and expected different things from the series.

 

 

What complexity and what depth? Complexity and depth is Corvus Corax screwing up the process in desperation and causing horrific suffering that traumatizes him and causes him to just leave the Imperium later in exile. Events happen to Corax and he purely reacts to them. The books don't pose philosophical questions to dive into the character, they don't answer existing questions either. They don't try do anything but a meager blow by blow of the process of an Alpha Legion attack that poisons the project and dooms it - nothing more. This doesn't contribute anything of real value considering it is performing merely the most basal form of 'literature' there is; hack work done purely for a paycheck. There's nothing behind the curtain of that book, the story is the curtain, all being pure aesthetics.

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Plus, changing his name to "Corvus Corax" is just... We've already got enough stupid names in the setting without adding more.

[mc warhammer]

well, in universe "corax" means "deliverer" so maybe "corvus" means something else too...like..."uber eats"