My Way in 9th with Grey Knights

Silver-Fox · August 17, 2020

Hello Brothers,

I'm in the hobby for about 15 years and played the Knights of Titan two times before. It was my second Army after my start with thousand sons. So in 9th I'm going back to my roots and play the Models I love. Don't get me wrong I'm a competetive guy and want to compete in some upcoming turnaments with the grey boyz. With the changes to the edition and the missions it's hard for me to find into the new playstyle. I like to play a more defensive game.

Tomorrow I have another game of 2k points matched play. I play vs not the stongest opponent, but i think he will play Ultramarines or something like that. So he will have an advantage.

After reading here in the Forum for quite some time and playing some games, that went horrible wrong (got tabled turn 3), I want to try the defensiv played GM-NDK and see if it fits.

Secondary wise I will take: While we stand we fight and deploy scramblers. I think those two obj are quite easy for us to do.

But here is the List:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [114 PL, 12CP, 1,998pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment CP

Hide Legends Options

+ HQ +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [11 PL, 230pts]: 6: Lore Master, Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Edict Imperator, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Sanctic Shard, Warlord, Warp Shaping

Grand Master Voldus [8 PL, 160pts]: Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity, Sanctuary

Lord Kaldor Draigo [10 PL, 190pts]: Armoured Resilience, Empyrean Domination

"Solid Char setup that can defend itself. I don't have the points to give the NDK the hammer but I want to play him defensive and use him more as a gun platform than a beatstick. Voldus will provide me with the important backup sanctic powers. WL on the GM-NDK so he can cast 2 real powers and doesn't have to use smite when he is behind a Wall/Building. And they are the 3 most expensive Models in the Army. One point why I didn't take a ven Dread. "

+ Troops +

Strike Squad [7 PL, 102pts]
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. 3x Grey Knight (Warding Stave): 3x Nemesis Warding Stave, 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter
. . Nemesis Warding Stave

"I had the points for the psilancer. Still don't like it"

Terminator Squad [22 PL, 380pts]
. Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. 7x Terminator (Halberd): 7x Nemesis Force Halberd, 7x Storm Bolter
. 2x Terminator (Warding Stave): 2x Nemesis Warding Stave, 2x Storm Bolter

Terminator Squad [22 PL, 380pts]
. Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. 7x Terminator (Halberd): 7x Nemesis Force Halberd, 7x Storm Bolter
. 2x Terminator (Warding Stave): 2x Nemesis Warding Stave, 2x Storm Bolter

All of them will be in reserve and come in turn 2, mybe the strike will come in in turn 3 to get the last scrambler in the enemy deployment zone.

+ Elites +

Paladin Squad [30 PL, 500pts]
. 5x Paladin (Halberd): 5x Nemesis Force Halberd, 5x Storm Bolter
. 4x Paladin (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter
. Paragon: Storm Bolter
. . Nemesis Force Halberd

"I'm no fan of psilencer/psycannons. I find that they dont do the work. So only Stormbolters....givig them 4 psycannons would be 1 less unit of servitors but i think I will need two of them"

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts]
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts]
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor

"The sevitors are here for the first scrambler in turn 1 and try to hold my own obj. They are cheap and dont give up the anty psi sec. There is some place for them in strategic reserves If needed."

++ Total: [114 PL, 12CP, 1,998pts] ++

I dont know what powers the regular units will take but probably a combination of sanctuary, gate and astral aim.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Skywrath · August 18, 2020

Looking at your list, there is a few things I'd point out. Why not give Voldus Lore Master, and make him have 4 psychic abilities, that's what I do with mine? Otherwise, the

power choices look decent for your HQ. Giving Lore Master to a model that has 2 powers, compared to the a potential 4, is just plain wasteful.

Going down to troops. I'm not convinced that psilencers are the way to go, I still run mine with psycannons + psycannon tide for 2 flat damage. Not to mention if you are going to be up against primaris units such as Eradicators/Inceptors/Aggressors, you would be wounding them with the psilencer on 4's, while with the psycannon on 3's with an extra -1 Ap on it, compare to the psilencers 0. Also scrap that psilencer on the strike squad, 1w model with a psilencer in it, not worth it.

Other than that, nothing to add there.

Elites - With the above logic, I'd still give paladins psycannons, and having 4x warding staves is excessive. I'd probably go with 2 per squad of 10. Give them spears. Scrap the Servitors, and find room to include an apothecary in there. To my knowledge Servitors don't get obsec, and hitting things on 5's, if they don't have a techmarine.I realize they are chaff, but you already have 10 terminators in 2 squads to hold points, so there is really no need to have those.

Other than that, here is the powers I'd recommend for your troops.

Terminators - GoI, because their movement sucks.

Paladins - Sanctuary.

Strike Squad - Contrary to popular belief, I'd give them Vortex of Doom. The reason I say that, is because you might as well maximise the use out of them, because they have 1w

apiece. Having that extra bit of spiciness could be the difference between holding a point for 1 turn, and a successful cast for another turn holding the point.

Kaldor - Warp Shaping, Armored Resilence OR Edict Imperator. Edict Imperator might be useful if you are deep-striking him with the GMNDK. Which brings me very well to another unit..

GMNDK - Sanctuary, Armored Resilence or Edict for obvious reasons.

Silver-Fox · August 18, 2020

So i got a chance to try this list on Tabletob Simulator. A friend of mine introduced me to it and did show me how to play. So he took his Drukari and we could start a game. We played Mission 11 (with 6 objectives)

He had:

Blender Witch HQ

2x 5 Witches with net

3x 5 Incubi with Drazar

Urien with 3Talos and a Chronos

1 Venom

2 Raiders

9 Bikes with +1 Toughness and all the mortal wound things.

30 Wracks

my secondarys were: While we Stand (Voldus, Draigo, GMNDK), deploy scramblers and the kill more obj. (i wanted to try it out. I a serius game i would take the anti vehicle/monster one)

I deplayed my 3 HQ's and the paladin unit behind my central deplyment ruin and the servitors in the south ruin. The rest was in reserves. So I did win the first turn and took it.

Round 1

I did buff up the Paladins with all the spells and gate them on the two north objectives. the servitors got me the first scrambler point. Shooting killed 2 Taloi and took 2 more wounds from the 3th.

His response was: He moved the 3 big wrack units on his 3 objectives on his side, the Talos, chonos, Urien, Drazar blob behind the middle obsuring Ruin. He flew the bikes over my paladins and did 2 mortal wounds or so. In the south 1 raider and the Venom with incubi got behind the south middle ruin on my side. Shooting saw only 1 dead paladin and 1 wounded. I did Transhuman the paldins and he did not hit/wound them anyway. He charged them with the bikes, 10 wracks and the raider. After combat i had still 8 Paladins and killed 3 bikes and 4-5 wrracks but didn't hold any of the objectives.

Round 2 got me 5 points primary

Ok i needed to do some damage....

So i moved draigo+ voldus up north and the GMNDK south and brought in 10 terminators in the forest on my south side objective. 5 Strikes got down in his deplyment zone and the Paladins stood where they were. In Psy i did astral aim the terminators and gate the paladins out of combat. The only place was behind voldus and draigo... (there was the first mistake)--- in a crater (next mistake). Then i cast smite with the strike squad.... (holy...they should get scramblers...) and did shoot the GMNDK, who killed the venom on the point and moved in 6" to the terminators. Then in the shooting phase my terminators did shoot with psybolt (split 5/5) on the 5 incubi and the 10 wracks behind the ruin. They did kill 2 incubi and 6 wracks. I did fail the charge with the paladins back in the bikes and that was my round.

"Oh boy i messed this round up big. I forgot to shock my other unit of 10 terminators in his backfield,messed up scramblers and left my HQ open"

He took 3 wound of my GMNDK in shooting as well as 2 wounds from draigo. (his shooting was not impactfull at all. he missed his lances or i saved the few of them. But i had to use a reroll to save the lance hit on draigo)

So he Charged me with Drazar, Urien, 5 Incubi, the Talos and the Raider (to deny overwatch) in the north in my Paladins. In the south he charged my Terminators in the forest with 5 incubi, the blender Witch, 5 witches and the Raider. After combat i had 3 Paladfins left, who fought in death and 5 terminators in the south. Warding staves baby! In return I did kill the Incubi in the south and took a wound of the Witch HQ and killed Drazar in the north. The bikes did kill my 4 servitors on my obj. in the middle.

"At this point it was 2 am or so and I needed a big swing turn"

Round 3

So my plan was to kill the 4 wracks on the south side objective and gate the 5 terminators on it who were in combat. Get my paldins out of melee and behid the ruin to block the advance and kill the bikes with draigo+voldus. I did shock my 10 man unit of terminators in his backfield and got my sec unit of servitors in the middle in to get my 2th scramblers point. "Ok from there it went south...." the GMNDK yould not kill 4 wracks in shooting, so i coudn't gate my terminators on the objective. Instead the got gated to my south ruin - in front of it. Shooting saw the north wrack squad dead and did reduce his home middle wrack unit to 4 dudes. the rest of the shooting killed the 5 south witches and something in the north i dont remember. So I did charge with my 5 man strike squad the 4 wrack and could kill 1 of them. Then they killed my whole unit.... (not as planed) Oh Draigo and vodus mudered the bikes, it was not funny.

But at this point i gave up and we talked it out. Even with then perfect score i coudn't win the game. The score on primary was 30 to 10 and he would get 15 next turn.

Conclution:

-the GMNDK has absolute no punch in shooting... he will be replaced by a librarian or two chaplains. idk

-Psilancers are a waste of points even when they shoot at optimal targets.

-I will need somethin with more Ap to kill things. So maybe back to the chaplain? i will try psycannons on the paladins

- the 4 warding staves are soo good on the paladins and i wish i had more in the terminator units. So the south unit in the forest had not to chose to get out of combat or get murdered.

- Draigo and Voldus are solid - they are keepers and i like the Fluff/models

- Strike squad will lose the psylancer and fill up a cheap troop slot. 1 Unit for scramblers will be in my lists. I would like a 10 man for the option to Psiammo deptstrike them.

- Servitors are soo usefull. They are dirt cheap and in cover not sooo easy to shift. 2 units will stay in my lists for scramblers or such things. And they dont give up abore the witch!

Skywrath as you see i come to kind of the same conclutions.

Psilancers got out of the List. BUT the 2 units of servitors will be in every list i can fit them in.

I will try the 4 psycannon paladins and maybe a prugation squad with them? Not sure about this or if I upgrade 1 terminator unit for some points more to paladins and give them the 4 psycannons instead of the purgation squad.... would be around 20 pts difference and so much harder to kill

The warding staves are so good on the palas, because they will get charged by the nasty stuff and kind of need the 3++ in CC. Honestly even with hammerhand on my paladins, they did not do much dmg without a hammer or two. they should be a shooting unit and tarpit and with gate you can keep them shooting. But you don't have to, as i learned.

IDK if i will stay with double terminatos or go double patrol with 2x5 strikes and 20 palas. Depends how good the 4 psycannon paladins perform. Thats the unique feature of them for me because i could only fit 2 in the terminator unit.

A Ven dread with Las+Missle combo could help me open the transports and then kill the inside with mass stormbolters. I have to accept that we have no hard anti tank in this army atm and ignore such targets.

the Apothecary is a good point and on paper he seems usefull but makes me more vulnerable to abort the witch and Headhunter secondarys. For his points i can get 2 more Paladins and he wont heal/bring back more than that in a game. He is in the same spot as the brotherhood Champion. I love the Lore and my conversion but i won't play him. heck I converted 3 NDK's and wont play them anymore....

So in less then two hours my friend will arive at my place and i can start another game. I still have to write the new List so I will report after the game.

So the List I will pay later ist to test the Librarian+Voldus+Draigo HQ setup and to try psycannon Paladins.

EDIT: So my opponent had no time today but we will try to get the game in on the 19. I'm currently watching the Gk vs GK game from the flying monkey cup(https://m.twitch.tv/videos/711048944) and at two hours watchtime. I like some concepts of the List of both players. So i dropped the second paladin psycannon squad for upgrading the strikes to Terminators. So i can use the combat squad mechanik in order to drop 5 man terminator units if needed. Sill not sure about the GMNDK's shooting is not their think but smashing. Still fells a bit risky....

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [116 PL, 12CP, 1,999pts] ++
+ Configuration +
+ HQ +

Grand Master Voldus [8 PL, 160pts]: 6: Lore Master, Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity, Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Warlord

Librarian [6 PL, 105pts]: Sanctic Shard
. Nemesis Warding Stave

Lord Kaldor Draigo [10 PL, 190pts]

+ Troops +

Strike Squad [14 PL, 200pts]: Astral Aim
. 5x Grey Knight (Halberd): 5x Nemesis Force Halberd, 5x Storm Bolter
. 4x Grey Knight (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter
. . Nemesis Warding Stave

Terminator Squad [22 PL, 380pts]: Gate of Infinity
. Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. 6x Terminator (Halberd): 6x Nemesis Force Halberd, 6x Storm Bolter
. 3x Terminator (Warding Stave): 3x Nemesis Warding Stave, 3x Storm Bolter

Terminator Squad [22 PL, 380pts]: Gate of Infinity
. Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. 6x Terminator (Halberd): 6x Nemesis Force Halberd, 6x Storm Bolter
. 3x Terminator (Warding Stave): 3x Nemesis Warding Stave, 3x Storm Bolter

+ Elites +

Paladin Squad [30 PL, 528pts] : "Gate / Sanctuary or Hammerhand... not sure"
. 2x Paladin (Halberd): 2x Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Storm Bolter
. Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator)
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator)
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator)
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator)
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. 3x Paladin (Warding Stave): 3x Nemesis Warding Stave, 3x Storm Bolter
. Paragon: Storm Bolter
. . Nemesis Force Halberd

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts]
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts]
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor

++ Total: [116 PL, 12CP, 1,999pts] ++

Edited August 21, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Skywrath · August 19, 2020

With your battle report - are you maximising the use of tides/psybolt ammunition/psychic onslaught on your GMNDK? Because he is NO slouch in shooting. However the Librarian

is a good choice, chaplains remain niche. Generally speaking yeah, psilencers are a waste, unless you mean the one on the GMNDK, which it isn't. With regards to more AP, do you mean melee or ranged AP? Having your units with swords should fix that in melee.Having 4 staves per 10m paladins, again is a waste. Realistically with their 3+ invuln, they are effectively immortal. Still not convinced about the servitors. Also, seeing how they don't have hammers, you'd best be giving them Sanctuary, as the paragon hits on a 2+.

I don't run a purgation squad, so I wouldn't know whether they are effective or not, but do try them, and see if they work (assuming you built them, happy to take your

word for it). With the shifting of the psycannons, give it to the paladins, however, I'm not against the idea of giving a purgation squad psycannons to see how effective

it would be. One thing worth nothing though, is that paying for a psycannon on a 1W model is rarely worth it, with the hike in points. Now whether the purgation squad

will get buffed to 2W, that would be worth looking at, I suppose.

The Venerable Dreadnought remains a solid option, I had a few games where even though he rolled 2/3 turns snake-eyes, he made up for it in destroying a tactical warsuit.

With the Apothecary, go back to my previous argument that you are sacrificing a potential 95 points for something as twice as that, if you inner fire someone important

such as the Warlord. Plus the paladins are essentially immortal, having an apothecary next to them is not really that good, as they have an effective 3+ invuln and 3 wounds.

With the new list - Looks like a standard paladin bomb, which I stress will work pretty well. I'd replace the Astral Aim on the Strike with a Vortex of Doom though.

Again, I am not convinced about servitors, but I look forward to hearing how that game went.

yowsaman · August 19, 2020

wanted to comment on a few things depending your list.

i've been playing grey knights from the start, even when they sucked (die hard :D)

with the new edition we goth a little bump but we seem to be doing still pretty well.

i run this kind of list now witch has been working pretty well for me.

HQ: Grey grand master in dreadknight armour (psylencer, sword, psycannon) warlord: first to the fray (sanctuary)

HQ: voldus (eddict, empyrium domination, ....)

HQ: driago (inner fire, warp shaping)

Troop: terminators (4 halberds, 1 staff) (gate)

troop: terminators (4 halberds, 1 staff) (astral aim)

Elite: 10 paladins (1 hammer on paragorn, 6 halberds, 3 staves) (astral aim)

elite: apothecary (sanctuary)

HQ: grey knight grand master in dreadknight armour (psylencer, sword, psycannon) (astral aim)

troop: terminators (4 halbers, 1 staff) (gate of infinity)

verry elite, but verry durable if you use your cp's well and the right strategems, like transhuman and redoubtable defence on your paladins and terminators where needed.

i normaly run my paladins with the character (driago, voldus, and apothecary) up center and then two terminator squad and a dreadknight left and right.

dont underestamate the firepower a dreadknight grand master brings (2+ now with a re-roll and buffing the terminators with re rolls)

i hold one terminator squad in reserve to drop them where needed.

as for secondary's: use engange on all fronts (dreadknights and gate of infinity are ideal for this in turn 1 if you go first and placing them on objectives imedeatly), the psychic secondary where you need to be in the middle and cast 3 times (mostly my aphotecary does this or the paladins) and for the third depending on the oponent (kill points if you are facing mass units or take em down if you are facing alot of vehicles)

dont forget that terminators will go up 3 wounds, making them even more harder, but probably more expensive also :(

Silver-Fox · August 19, 2020

Here is the Battle report from my Match vs the Ultra Marines.

I took a bit different List than above. I wanted to try the Flyer "thing".

So I had

Draigo - Armoured Resiliance, Warpshape

Voldus[WL] - Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Gate, Astral Aim

Libby [sanctic shard] - Edict, Emyrian Dom

10 terminators, 4x Warding Stave, 6x Helebard - Sanctuary

5 terminators, 5x helebard - Gate

5 terminators, 5x helebard - Vortex

10 Paladins, 4x Warding Stave, 1x Hammer, 5x Helebard, 4x Psycannon - Sanctuary

4 Servitors

Stormtalon Gunship, Twin Las

And he had:

Librarian - +CP power, something else

Captain(Indomitus) 3++ Relic

Lieutenant (indomitus)

Judicator

3x5 Intercessors

1x 10 Assault intercessors

5 Scouts

3 Eradicators

2x3 Plasma Inceptors

2x repulsor, Las talon, twin las + top Gattling

So we Rolled Mission 23 The Scouring

I could chose the side and took the left one.

I deployed the Servitors behind the south ruin and my paladins plus chars behind the central ruin.

He did put the scouts on the middle obj., and quite a lot in the middle. In his one repulsor was his char bomb with 5 intercessors and in the other the 10 assault interessors. The 2x3 Plasma Inceptors were in reserve. I had my Stormtalon, 10 terminators and the two 5 man units in reserves.

We rolled of and he had the first turn.

So Ultras Turn 1

He did get his both Repulsors on top of the ruin and did go in the objectives to his north and south. His eradicators with librarian did advance. He did deploy 3x the Banner(middle, his top and bottom obj)

Shooting did nothing, because I passed all my saves on the paladins.

So Grey Knights Turn 1

I did start in the Shadow tide.

Ok I did buff paladins with all the powers and did let them shot the scouts in the middle with astral aim and gated them in the ruin in front of my chars. One paladin did chain back to my chars to be in 3". All three of them did advance forward and the first unit of servitors deployed my home scrambler.

Ultras Turn 2

In the command phase he did get 10 points for primary and 3 points for the planted banners.

So he went forward to shoot my paladins with his two repulsors and let the 2x3 Plasma Inceptors shock. (i did tell him not to use both untis but he wanted it so. He wasn't able to shoot my chars nor the paladins with them.)

In the psychic phase he did cast himself a comand point/reroll and went in the shooting phase to hurt my paldains.

After everything has shot in my transhuman -1 Dmg paladins he did kill 1 and bring down one to 1 wound.

So Grey Knights turn 2

In the command phase i got 5 for primary. I thought in this game I will bring all my reserves in turn 2 for a hard blow. And yes it was a big rist to bring the flyer too. But I felt i needed him to kill 1 repulsor and decimate the plasma Inceptors.

So i did advance one unit of servitors towards the middle ruin where my chars where. The other unit walked towards the interceptors. The paladins went in the middle in oder to charge the repulsors/emparked units. The big blob of terminators got in with dynamic insertion 3" away from the repulsor on the middle obj. My goal was to make it as hard as possible to place his models embarked and to steal the middle obj.

The Vortex Squad did land in his upper backfield and the Gate squad did the same behind his librarian with the eradicators.

In the psychic phase i did gate the advanced serviotors behind his top ruin in his deployment zone.

The terminators got -1 to wound and the Paladins got hammerhand, sanctuary and astral aim. I did switch to shooty tide and let the terminator unit shoot with +1 to hit and psybolt ammunition. they killed 2 Plasma Inceptors from the front squad and 1 2/3 from the other squad and two intercessors on the top objective. Vortex did do no wound to the upper Repulsor(he got the 5+ FnP strat) but 3 wonds to the bottom one and 1 wound to the intercessors on the obj. (could cast it with 3d6 and hat to reroll the test to get an 8 on my result...)

In the shooting phase i did psychic onsaught the paladins and gave them +1 to hit. The Stormbolters did kill the rest of the top Intercessor squad and the psycannons took 10 wounds of the repulsor.

My Stormtallon did no dmg to the Repulsor, and yes he was near draigo for full rerolls. So i had to charge it with 3 wounds left. Great....

So charging phase. I did the Charge on the Librarian in his backfield with my 5 terminators and the Paldins did charge the 3 Wound Repulsor and kill it. (One Assault intercessor did die)the Terminators did kill the Librarian and reconsolidate in the eradicators, which lost 1 in the shooting phase. my 4 Servitors did charge his lone plasma inceptor and lost 1 guy in overwatch, did wound him but he passed his save. In combat i lost none and so the objective was contested.

So Turn 3 and i forgot to make a picture in his round. So i have only one from bottom of turn 3.

In his command phase he got 15 for primary because he had more obsec on the middle obj.

He flew his repulsor out of combat and in my quater to get 3 points for engange on all fronts. The inceptors did get away from the south objetive and he lost his banner because of that. (i still had 3 models in range, yay Servitors)

5 Intercessors got out of the other repulsor and went to the objective and his character ball shot and charged my Terminator unit. The Eradicators did get out of combat with my 5 terminators and did kill 2 of them. (he only hit 2 shots). The Repulsor did kill my Librarian.

the plasma inceptors did kill my servitors and i think one terminator in the middle. Some wounds were chipped of the paldains and the terminatos and after combat and some good warding stave saves (yes te terminators hat 4 as well) i had 5 terminators left.

On my turn:

I did buff Draigo with Hammerhand and Voldus did move up to the repulsor to punch it really hard. The vortex terminators did move up to the intercessors and my flyer got down to the inceptors to shoot the eradicators. The 3 mann terminator squad moved towards his 3 bottom intercessors. In the shooting phase the paldins killed the remaining plasma interceptors and my flyer did no dmg again....

I did charge in with voldus and draigo in the repulsor and Draigo tainked the overwatch like a boss. The paladins charged the middle blob but not the lieutenant. and the terminators charged their intercessor targets and killed them. The Judicator did make my paladins fight last while my both Grandmasters wrecked the Repulsor. there was not much left of him because he had some really bad saves....

This is the picture after end of turn 4

At this point we talked it out and it would be a 61 to 38 victory for the GK's

At the end it was not the best game to see what we can do, because of the bad rolling in round 3+4 of my opponent.

The thing with the flyer is more a gimmick than a usefull addition to the list and yes you could start him on the board and fly him of with the shoot+move psychic power and bring him back turn 5 for easy 5 sec points. But i think 185 pts less is a bit much for just sit in reserve and be max 2 turns on the board. A ven Dread yould do the same.

So i will replace him with one of those.

The psycannons were fun and did suprisingly well in the one shooting phase where they were fully buffed. (+1 hit strat, psy onslaught and full rerols with draigo) but you lose your Cp so fast that I had none left at the End of turn 2.

I like the 5 man terminator units. They can be really nasty for the usual backfield obj holders. I think they will be good in the future. I don't know if a 10 man strike squad for one more glass cannon psybolt ammunition round will find it's place in my lists now.

I think a second big paladin blob is not the way to got, because of the big terminator blob in the middle who has obsec, so they did tank a lot....

One Unit to shoot some psycannons is good but two are too much, and have no obsec which is sooo important now....Hmm i need to let the game sink in and think about some changes to the List.

I hope you did enjoy the ride.

If you have some advice for tactics or things i did wrong/could do better, I would like to hear them.

Or when you have Ideas to improve the list.

Edit: did fix some gramar an sentence errors :wink:

Did add some spoilers, to shorten the post for scroling.
The new list will be in the next post to keep it structured.....

Edited August 21, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox · August 20, 2020

New Post, new List and my thoughts to it.

First the thoughts:

The tripple HQ setup did work quite well and with some shifting of some powers i'll be fine with it. The Combo of Astral Aim and Gate have to be on two different casters in order to let me buff a squad with astral aim, shoot them and THEN gate them. Question: We can cast one more power for 1 CP, can this be out of order? So when i did finish a character to cast his powers and then spend the cp after another psyker did cast a power to let the first one cast one more?

Voldus had my 4 santic powers but i didn't need more then two casts of him because my units buff themselves. So the Libby takes the job and gets the WL for one more power so i can be flexible how i fill the gaps.

I did like the one Paladin unit with Hammer and 4 psycannons. But one is enough and i can't support more than one unit, because every time they shoot, they will burn 3 CP ( +1 to hit - to get full rerolls from draigo; Psychic onslaught - for more ompf!) So they will block the onslaught stratagem most of the game and so a GMNDK won't pair well with them. Thats a "no" for the NDK in this list.

The vortex terminator unit did a good job and were hard to shift, esp. when you place them in cover/behind baricades and then preassure the backline. I think about behind enemy Lines sencondary with two units dropping in the backfield.

the Big unit of terminators with 4x wardings staves were quite resilient and i had a good comparison between paladins and them. And to be honest... they did tank quite a lot esp. with -1 to wound on them and sanctuary for 3++. With 3 wounds in the future, this will be the "second paladin blob" for the psybolt ammunition stratagem. And obsec helps with being a big thorn in your enemys plan.

For you Skywrath, the servitors:

I really like them and they can spend the actions for the secondarys we take. Our fighting units don't want to stop and do nothing. And i had in the game investigate sights and wasn't able to do it until turn 4 where my opponent was nearly tabled. So remember only take one action objective. And it was close that the 3 buggers killed the one plasma inceptor. (he did pass his 5+ armour save.) For 1 CP i can put 2/3 of them in reserve and get 10 points for the scramblers secondary without any truble. The unit starting on the board can be gated for a turn 3 scrambler setup, too. Cheap, relative resiliant with 4+ armour save. Like the rusty 17 troops in a 8th Knight list.

Last spot in the List is the Ven-Dread. He is another source of Astral Aim and with 18" range should be able to support my units around my castle in the first 2 rounds. To keep him save i can cast move+shoot on him and get behind/hop cover. Most important he doesn't burn CP while doing his thing unlinke a NDK.

So with the above thought considering, then updated list looks like this:

(And it pleases my inner autist because its ecxactly 2000 pts :smile.: )

+ HQ +
Grand Master Voldus [8 PL, 160pts]: Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity, Hammerhand

"supports my army with the missing powers if a unit can't cast it. He can buff himself with Hammerhand and Heed the prognosticar and punch things. Heed simulates sanctuary if it looks realy grimm or i have enough CP"

Librarian [6 PL, 108pts]: 6: Lore Master, Edict Imperator, Empyrean Domination, Sanctic Shard, Storm Bolter, Warlord, Warp Shaping
. Nemesis Warding Stave

"provides a backup Warpshape, if not needed he casts the +1 CP"

Lord Kaldor Draigo [10 PL, 190pts]: Armoured Resilience, Warp Shaping

"Resilience on Draigo to let him buff himself, if he goes smashing something alone in the mid- to lategame."

+ Troops +
Terminator Squad [22 PL, 380pts]: Sanctuary
. Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. 5x Terminator (Halberd): 5x Nemesis Force Halberd, 5x Storm Bolter
. 4x Terminator (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter

Terminator Squad [11 PL, 190pts]: Gate of Infinity
. Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. 4x Terminator (Halberd): 4x Nemesis Force Halberd, 4x Storm Bolter

Terminator Squad [11 PL, 190pts]: Vortex of Doom
. Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter
. . Nemesis Force Halberd

. 4x Terminator (Halberd): 4x Nemesis Force Halberd, 4x Storm Bolter
"all of them will go in reserve to keep my footprint low in the first round. And i did forget we had a 1CP strat to shock out of 3". I would like to give the 5 man units one stave too but i only have 8 models build with them."

+ Elites +
Paladin Squad [30 PL, 543pts]: Sanctuary
. Paladin (Halberd): Storm Bolter
. Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator)
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator)
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator)
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator)
. . Nemesis Force Halberd
. 4x Paladin (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter
. Paragon: Storm Bolter
. . Nemesis Daemon Hammer: Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts]
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts]
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts]
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor
. Servitor

"two units of them will go in strategic reserve with 1CP. So i have my 3 scrambler units for sure. And I don't expect anything besides the one action from them. Everthing else is just a big bonus"

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 155pts]: Astral Aim, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

"I can use teleportarium on him to shock him too, if needed. With all the reserves (all terminators 2x servitors and him it's 999 pts in reserve. Ok i did count the number of my units and I have only 11 units in the list, so i cant let 6 units in reserve - damm it."

++ Total: [112 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++

Edited August 21, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Skywrath · August 20, 2020

I'll have a look at this when I come back in a bit. More Grey Knight opinions requested!

Silver-Fox · August 21, 2020

Good news, I can test the new list in a revange match versus the Salamander player on Saturday (22.08.2020).

Thats a tough nut to crack with double repulsor, double eradicators(the new melta dudes) and double(?) 5 man flamer agressors....

Honestly it's a nightmare to get a target selection plan, because everything hits so hard and you don't want them hitting you.

How would you aproach it? (the 2x5 agressors are in the repulsurs with Las Talon, twin Las)

Secondary wise I think about planing:

-While we stand we fight

- deploy scramblers

-Linebreaker

"Linebreaker, because i want in his zone anyway to get the third scrambler and we got gate and reserve units. This scores at the end of my turn. So as long as i can get two units in his zone, I can get 4 points without counterplay. And it can force your opponent to keep some units in the back and so I can pressure better the middle of the board."

Edited August 21, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Skywrath · August 21, 2020

Still looking at your first post, but I can answer the second.

I had a White Scars player with a very very similar load-out, except he had invictor warsuits instead of a repulsor. What I did against that, was to put the paladin in deep-strike and charge the eradicators T2. In T1, paradoxically, I went with the smite tide, and just blew a hole in them, while the paladins finished them off (look at my white-scars vs grey knights battle report in army discussions). With the eradicators, you'd want to wrap them around with the second paladin blob. Then you could probably GOI one of your paladins to the flamer aggressors? Yeah, it's not simple for sure.

Here's a rough idea of the list (point permitting)

Chaplain (FnP litany, other litany that rerolls D3 wounds)

Voldus, (Warlord, main dominus caster)

Kaldor, (Warp Shaping, Armoured Resilience)

Terminator Squad x3 (Psycannon loadout)

Paladin Squad of 10 x 2 (Sanctuary, barebones)

Apothecary (Inner Fire)

Ven Dreadnought (if points permit) with lascannon/missile launcher. (Astral Aim)

So Terminators hold points, Kaldor with one paladin blob, Voldus with the other. Chaplain reinforcing one of those paladin blobs to whatever is the bigger problem. Ven Dreadnought is picking away at those repulsor with astral aim/twin lascannon. Tide wise, I think you would be locked into Shadows most of the time, because they clearly have the advantage in terms of fire-power. Apothecary is still acting as an assassin and Inner Firing probably that Aggressor Squad with the powerful adept + empyric channeling strategem. Plug that into battle-scribe, see if that would work out, points wise. If not, just yell at me, and I can have another look.

Silver-Fox · August 22, 2020

The List you suggest is about 2350 pts. Double paladin bomb is super expensive esp. with terminator troops.

The inner fire apothecary is a waste of point vs. salamanders because you need to shock pretty close and Marines got auspex scan and burn your boy bevore he can do something.... In this kind of matchup - not so great.

As much as I like the -1 rend litany, I can't fit the chaplain in my lists. Pointwise and psychic power wise.

That's why I want to try to use more psycannons in my army like you suggested. I had to strip one servitor unit to fit in the additional psycannons and did switch one terminator unit for a 10 man strike with 2 psycannons. The thought about the strike is, that i allways combat squad them in 2 cannons, stave,2 hellebards/ Justicar, 2 staves, 2 hellebards. The psycannon part is a mini purgation squad with build in deepstrike and obsec.

Power wise I did give the terminator squad the vortex and the strikes gate, so I'm more mobile for objectives and can hold the non cannon squad in reserve to emergency port something.

Question: Can i Combat squad a unit and put one part on the board and the other one in deepstrike?

I think 10 paladins with 4 psycannons, 10 terminators and two units of servitors will be a solid base of every list I try. They give me enough hitting and stayingpower and I have dudes who can do actions for me.

So the List for today will be:

+ HQ +

Grand Master Voldus [8 PL, 160pts]: Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity, Hammerhand

Librarian [6 PL, 105pts]: 6: Lore Master, Edict Imperator, Empyrean Domination, Sanctic Shard, Warlord, Warp Shaping . Nemesis Warding Stave

Lord Kaldor Draigo [10 PL, 190pts]: Armoured Resilience, Warp Shaping

+ Troops +

Strike Squad [14 PL, 214pts]: Gate of Infinity .

3x Grey Knight (Halberd): 3x Nemesis Force Halberd, 3x Storm Bolter . 2x Grey Knight (Psycannon): 2x Psycannon . 4x Grey Knight (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter . Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Warding Stave

Terminator Squad [22 PL, 380pts]: Sanctuary .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 5x Terminator (Halberd): 5x Nemesis Force Halberd, 5x Storm Bolter . 4x Terminator (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter

Terminator Squad [11 PL, 197pts]: Vortex of Doom .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 3x Terminator (Halberd): 3x Nemesis Force Halberd, 3x Storm Bolter . Terminator (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd

+ Elites +

Paladin Squad [30 PL, 543pts]: Sanctuary .

Paladin (Halberd): Storm Bolter . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 4x Paladin (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter . Paragon: Storm Bolter . . Nemesis Daemon Hammer: Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts] . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 155pts]: Astral Aim, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [113 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++

BTW Did battlescribe change the "chat text option" ? It looks different than bevore when I copy paste the Lists.....

Edited August 22, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox · August 22, 2020

Ok I'm now playing vs another friend of mine in TTS. He plays Deathwatch.

I try to make some Screenshots and write a short Battlereport as we go.

Test to insert Screenshot from Steam:

..

DW Army Overview

His Army List:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Deathwatch) [117 PL, -1CP, 1,999pts] ++

+ HQ +

Watch Captain [7 PL, -1CP, 125pts]: Combi-melta, Jump Pack, Nowhere to Hide, Relic blade, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
. The Beacon Angelis

Watch Master [7 PL, 125pts]: Castellan of the Black Vault, Warlord

+ Troops +

Intercessors [12 PL, 250pts]
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt rifle, Chainsword

Intercessors [12 PL, 250pts]
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor: Bolt rifle
. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt rifle, Chainsword

Veterans [23 PL, 338pts]
. Terminator
. . Chainfist and Stormbolter: Chainfist, Storm Bolter
. Terminator
. . Chainfist and Stormbolter: Chainfist, Storm Bolter
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Chainfist
. . Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter: Cyclone missile launcher, Storm Bolter
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Chainfist
. . Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter: Cyclone missile launcher, Storm Bolter
. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield
. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield
. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield
. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield
. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield
. Watch Sergeant: Storm Bolter, Storm shield

Veterans [22 PL, 351pts]
. Biker w/ Teleport Homer: Deathwatch Teleport Homer, Power axe
. Terminator
. . Chainfist and Stormbolter: Chainfist, Storm Bolter
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Chainfist
. . Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter: Cyclone missile launcher, Storm Bolter
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Chainfist
. . Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter: Cyclone missile launcher, Storm Bolter
. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield
. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield
. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield
. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield
. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield
. Watch Sergeant: Storm Bolter, Thunder hammer

+ Elites +

Bladeguard Ancient [5 PL, 85pts]

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [5 PL, 105pts]: 2x Bladeguard Veteran, Bladeguard Veteran Sgt

+ Flyer +

Corvus Blackstar [12 PL, 185pts]: Auspex Array, Twin lascannon
. 2x Stormstrike Missile Launchers

Corvus Blackstar [12 PL, 185pts]: Auspex Array, Twin lascannon
. 2x Stormstrike Missile Launchers

++ Total: [117 PL, -1CP, 1,999pts] ++

...

We are playing Mission 12 "Scorched Earth"

My secondarys are: While we Stand we fight, Deploy scramblers, Linebreaker

His secondarys are: Abor the witch, engage on all fronts, rais the banners high.

I deployed my paladins touching the terain with Draigo and voldus behind them. In the south ruin i placed the librarian, the ven dread and 4 servitors behind it. I have in reserve all terminators, 1 deepstriking servitor unit, both combat squaded strike teams. I am in the tide of shadows.

He has the Corvus with 3 vets+ 2 missle terminators in it on both sides, the bladeguard vets with banner in the middle and in the south industrial ruin his primaris kill teams. His mission tactic is vs troops.

He got first turn and takes it.

So DW Turn 1

He moves up all he has and brings his north Corvus in position to shoot my paladins, while the south one can see behind the drednougt ruin. He raises the banner in his deployment and the right forest with his watch captain.

The corvus opens on my Ven dread hit all wounds all and i use the -1 Dmg strat. He does 12 dmg kills it.

The other corvus kills 1 paladin and the primaris killteam shots with -1 rend ammunition and takes 2 wound of another paladin.

GK turn 1

I did advance the librarian to gate him to the paladins. The servitors stood at the objective and did my scramblers. The paladins did move up a bit. In the psycic phase got the paldins all the buffs and my gate on the libby failed with reroll. I switched to the shooty tide.

In the shooting phase the paladins used psybolt ammunition, psychic onslaught and fury of the first. 4 stormbolter on the blue veteran squad(killed 3 and 2 wounds of the aggressor), 1 stormbolter(did nothing) on the bladeguard and the psycannons killed the corvus.

The 9 " charge on the corvus dudes did fail with command reroll.

Turn 2 DW

He got 15 pts primary, 3 for abhor the witch, 2 engage on all fronts and 3 for the banners.

on the left side his squad got out to threaten the servitors on the objective. The killteams on the left flank did spread out to screen my reserves.

The dw squad on the left did shot my librarian and took 1 wound. the cyclone did nothing.

Some bolter shots did killed 3 paladins and took 2 wounds of of one. The libby tanked 2 lascannon shots on his 5++ and did survive. Pew!

The left squad charged the servitors and killed them.

Turn 2 GK

So the big turn 2. He did a really good job in screening me from 80% of the bord so i did dynamic insert the 10 man terminator unit in his ruin on the top. The paladins moved to the container and did move in the shooting phase again. The servitors came on the left for scrambler nr.2 and after 3 adv rolls of 1, i had to schock my psycannon strikle team near the librarian. The psycannon terminators did shock right of draigo to shoot the red squad on hios right side to clear for a gate move.

So psyphase saw some smites and did take 2 wound of the corvus and 2 wounds of the forest killteam. Shooting of my paladins did kill only 3 1/2 intercessors and so i had no landing zone. -1 to wound on the strike. Sanctuary, hammerhand on the paladins.

in the Shooting phase he passed 13 3+ saves in the forest and so only 1 terminator died there. the rest of the shooting saw the 10 man terminator blob with psybolt ammunition and +1 to hit, eliminating the bladeguard vets and made no dmg the forest killteam.

I had no charges so i did end my turn.

DW turn 3

He got 15 on primary. And flew his corvus over the 6 paldins and did 2 mortal wound. That killed one and took another to 2 wounds. The corvus killed 4 paladins and the Captain killed another one with his combi melta wit -2 rend ammunition. The middle veteran squad killed the strike squad with +2 wound ammunition.

The squad in my left ruin killed the servitors.

The watchcaptain, the small intercessor squad, and one big did charge the terminators

After fighting i had 4 left and i lost 3 from morale. So the lone jusitcar was still standing.

So after his Turn 3 i did surrender. This is the Screen of end turn 3:

point wise i would get 5 points primary and could get scrambler and linebreaker.

The Scoreboard

pew pretty hard game and I need to let it sink in....

..

.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Skywrath · August 23, 2020

With your questions..

Unfortunately, it would seem so. I'll have another list chalked up and send it to you, when I'm finished with the shops.

Fair point about the apothecary and inner fire. Had an Alpha Legion player do the same to me, so yeah.. it was a soul crushing blow.

Let me see if I can do something about the chaplain - I have a list that could work pretty well with that in mind.

Curious to see how that mini-purgation squad build will work out.

I would switch the terminator squad to GOI, and Strikes Vortex. Strikes can move, Terminators are slow.

With regards to your question, no, both have to be on the board.

As for your lists.

With your lists. I can see that working pretty well. Normally I'd give Voldus the Warlord Trait, but seeing how he's more killy than the librarian, fair point. I'd argue not giving strikes warding staves, because they still are at 1W each, and have no invuln. Just switch it out for either swords or halberds. No point giving them staves. Unless you were planning on sanctuary the strikes and improving that save to a 4+ with the stave? Similar to how purifiers work? Nifty idea, if so.

Terminators, good, just switch that vortex of doom for GOI around. Paladins, also good. I see I can't convince you about servitors haha, so I'll leave those there. Ven Dreadnought is

a good addition as well, he pulls his weight in adamantium.

As per the first report, I'll have something later tonight about your second, I promise. Sorry about that my dude.

Silver-Fox · August 23, 2020

Ok we did play it so i had the option to let one strike part in reserve and the other on the board but I didn't do it in the end.

The mini purgation squad came down, did like 5 wounds to a terminator in cover and he saved all 3+ saven. Then the unit was boltered to death....

For the Ven-Dread. He got killed bevore i had a chance to use him. But he gives up my while we stand we fight. I don't know what i should think about him or a GM-NDK instead. It feels like you need an invul when you bring bigger things with all the crazy high ap flying around.

Yes I did miss my gate on the terminators but i messed up my vortex sequence too. So i did shoot+ move the paldins first and then wanted to cast vortex but they were in 3" of the target. so I did smite instead. Was both an 8 to cast.

The staves on the strikes are 0 points like the hellebards. So i get a 5++ in close combat for free and when I really need it, i can buff them with sanctuary. About 50/50 Hellebard to staves seems a good mix. Hmm I like the 5 man terminator squads more because of the inbuild 5++ and full rapid fire on 24". For psybolt ammunition I use the big terminator blob and then i don't have the CP for it.

I must say, that game did work nearly nothing I wanted to do and then i had wet noodels as weapons in the important turns in which I had to do some dmg. Conidering the GM-NDK I would turn in a circle and nothing works for me atm. mabe I should try a soup army?

Edited August 23, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Corvus Fortis · August 23, 2020

For the Ven-Dread. He got killed bevore i had a chance to use him. But he gives up my while we stand we fight. I don't know what i should think about him or a GM-NDK instead. It feels like you need an invul when you bring bigger things with all the crazy high ap flying around.

Unless your opponent has Flyers, that can reach it or lots of LoS-ignoring shooting, your Vendread should be fine. I always hide it behind obscuring terrain, and it works fine to me. I never got it killed early on, except one game, where he had been focus-fired by basilisks.

GMNDK doesn't live without 3++ and Tide of Shadow highly recommended. Even with 3++ you have to be lucky. But I think, new mission format benifits him, because he is nice at holding objectives and cover our characters. But, IMO, VenDread is better.

The staves on the strikes are 0 points like the hellebards. So i get a 5++ in close combat for free and when I really need it, i can buff them with sanctuary. About 50/50 Hellebard to staves seems a good mix. Hmm I like the 5 man terminator squads more because of the inbuild 5++ and full rapid fire on 24". For psybolt ammunition I use the big terminator blob and then i don't have the CP for it.

I see no point in trying to protect strikes until they get their 2nd wound. They die to a stiff breeze. Stave only protects you in close combat. So, to effectively use stave, you have to be attacked by something with AP-3 in close combat, which won't happen so often. And even then it only gives you 5++. In 2 out 3 cases you are dead. At he same time, if you happen to get in close combat with them (which is also not the most common scenario), you will lose combat effectiveness, because s6 is marginally better then s5 and AP is worse. Halberds is the best choice atm.

mabe I should try a soup army?

But what's the purpose? The fact is that GK can deal with most threats by themselves, but they lose the means, when you soup them.

Silver-Fox · August 23, 2020

Good point with the Ven Dread. I should give him another chance.

The NDK's in general can die so quick with a few bad rolls. I love them but they don't get me rules wise.

I watch the art of war games with gk and there are two GMNDK every game. But I don't think they are worth the points.

Ok fully buffed they can tank a lot but without they lack some reactive strats to protect them.

The Problems I have are:

-It feels for me, like we can't play the mission. Every time I get out of cover to hold an objective, my unit is pretty much dead unless it's a fully buffed paladin squad with 4 CP investment.

-Than the lack of high ap weapons like other faction have with plasma guns/grav weapons. The best we can get is ap -1 or -2, which some factions can ignore entirely while sitting in cover with a 2+ save.

-The anti tank we have is super CP hungry and buff dependend. But if it has a good armour most of it wont get through.

-All our vehicles suck because they don't profit from Tides. (exeption is our dreadnought but we don't have contemptors)

That sounds a bit hard but thats how I feel at the moment. Seriusly I'm out of Ideas, what to do.... and that has never happend in 15 years into the hobby.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Corvus Fortis · August 24, 2020

-It feels for me, like we can't play the mission. Every time I get out of cover to hold an objective, my unit is pretty much dead unless it's a fully buffed paladin squad with 4 CP investment.

Try bringing more paladins instead of terminators. I don't know, how much obsucring terrain do you use in your games, but the more you bring, the better it will be.

Also, how much time are you spending in Tide of Shadows? I find that surviving is way more important now, than killing stuff.

-Than the lack of high ap weapons like other faction have with plasma guns/grav weapons. The best we can get is ap -1 or -2, which some factions can ignore entirely while sitting in cover with a 2+ save.

Psychic powers may help here. I like apothecary with Inner fire. Some faction may deny him drop zone or deny his power, but for 80 pts he is still great. At worst case, he will force your opponent to waste CP, in best - snipe important character or dangerous unit. In one game he killed full 10-man dark reaper squad. The roll was very good, but killing half of it would make him pay off already. Finally, opponent has to deal with him. And killing him, while in tide of shadows, will require some dedicated fire. If he happens to survive, he will heal again and drop inner fire again.

Also don't underestimate tide of escalation. It got significantly worse, but still very powerful tool. For elite armies with high saves every wound and every model counts. With Empyric Surge you still can get 4-5 reliable smites, which is a lot.

I also find my self trying to get to melee ASAP again. Paladins will kill almost anything with hammerhand, rerolls and Fury of the Proven.

That sounds a bit hard but thats how I feel at the moment. Seriusly I'm out of Ideas, what to do.... and that has never happend in 15 years into the hobby.

Don't lose hope, brother! We've been through worse.

Skywrath · August 25, 2020

Alright, sorry for the long wait, but here are some thoughts about the battle-report, I had.

With your game against the Ultramarines - absolutely LOVE the idea of adding a Stormtalon in there - even though it's not viable, it's still nice to see.

Nothing that strikes me out of the ordinary there, besides having terminators - see what I did there? ;p I'm going to go show myself out now.. Right, onto psychic powers, which

all seem to be in order. If I were to really focused on the details, i'd give both of the terminators GoI. But other than that. All good.

Let's look at turn 1. I'm going to be commenting mostly on what you could do, instead of the Ultramarine, as this is GK specific. Starting in shadows was the right choice.

Turn 2 - Bringing the flyer in, was probably the right thing to do, however I probably would have put him closer to the Intercessors guarding that point (near the inceptors).

That way you could easily flanked the point, while kiling them off easily enough, while contesting the point, and introducing another threat other than the paladin blob.

Maybe even having terminators in that stormtalon wouldn't have been a bad idea either - kill the chaff, contest the points. Beauty of that idea is that the repulsor can't shoot

you. Advancing the servitors was also a good decision. They are practically worthless so, no skin of your back there. Positionining wise, was also relatively good, however I

may be wrong in saying this, but I would have put your paladins in front of the Repulsor, so that you could congo-chain into the blob behind him, with the stormtalon on

the other side, creating a pincer movement (with my stormtalon idea). That would have put the Ultras into a very awkward position, and then the following turn you could have gone the melee tide and

put them to rest, while servitors are holding the points. Everything else looks fine though.

Turn 3 - Draigo is a badass ;p, This might be a questionable decision, but were you at that point far ahead on points? If so, maybe GoI the servitors in front of the inceptors so they

couldn't fire, and put them into combat. Pretty much hold points and clean up in the meantime.

Skiping turn 4, and straight onto your observations. Glad you came around to the thought of the psycannons being good. I wouldn't call them the bread and butter of the GK

paladin blob, but yeah, they are far from useless. You would be right in taking a Ven Dread, but there is nothing more than cool seeing something that isn't viable make an

appreance. In my competitive list (which I'll post at the bottom that you could try out), I run a VLR. Still yet to determine it's efficiency, but yeah.. I'm rambling on.

With regards to the CP burning - unfortunately that's the way GK's played every since 8th, and now 9th. But the ends justify the means - if you were that ahead on points then

that's what mattered in the end. I still would not have given terminators 2 staves, and given 2 halberds instead. But yeah, 3W terminators will definitely make the GK stronger.

I might have to review my servitor stance, in light of that report. But do try a Ven dread if you have the points for it, he really does pull his weight as I said earlier.

Updated list from that report thoughts: Very good actually. But again 2 warding staves, plox.

I'll send both of those lists to your PM after this.

Second battle report:

Deployment: I would have put the paladins in deep-strike to counter the Aggressor blob. Perhaps even tailoring your psychic powers - such as for the Vortex of Doom, Inner Fire, Purge Soul for those.

Would have been useful.

Turn 1: Risky decision with advancing the librarian - because there were no units closer than 3" (at least on my screen), he doesn't benefit from Look Out Sir! Also if he was the

warlord in your list, then that's just a freebie you are giving away for little reason. If I were in that position, I probably would have used the strategem that extends your

ability range (powerful adept) and done that, assuming they were in range. But yeah, tough luck on that one.

Turn 2: Not much to be said there, looks like you got unlucky.

Sounds like you got unlucky that game, but the way Deathwatch is looking this edition, they are going to be one of the top armies. Essentially, they are the GK primaris that we

should have got back in 2017. Hopefully that doesn't dampen your spirits too much! We are the Hammer!

With your notes afterwards: The way Ven Dreadnoughts play (in my experience), is for you to put them behind obscuring terrain (prefferably one with a marker), and astral aim it.

They only work well, then your opponent realises there is a more important threat on the board, such as the Paladins. GMNDK isn't any better, sorry.

Until the strikes have 2W, that stave is not worth it, period. Strikes (at least currently), as just asking to be blown off the board whenever someone sees them on teh points.

So far it's either go Terminators, or bust for troops. With Terminators it's 2 staves per 10, strikes none. I personally go with swords for my strikes anyway, for the -3 AP on them.

Silver-Fox · August 25, 2020

Thank you both for the detailed response. I have to read it like 1-2 times more to get everything.

@ Corvus

Your suggestion to bring more paladins wouldn't help much, I think because I already lack units who can play the missions and another big unit will decrease the amout of models I can bring. And I lose more obsec.

I'm a fan of the Inner Fire apothecary on paper, and with a 8th edition mindset. The point where I consider the 9th secondarys, he is more a penalty than a help in the List. At least as an assassin. As a backup beatstick/Caster he is really good.

A good point to still use the smite tide for those problematic 3++ Units. Without a brother captain, this move is an all in thing, and can go south pretty fast. So for the time when you are desperate and would lose anyway?

I thought about Inner Fire on draigo/volus, so when they go smashing, they can support that with Inner Fire. Maybe as 4th power on Voldus? It woudn't be the drop variant but a tool in the toolbox. The 3" deepstrike doesn't work with gate, does it?

@ Skywrath

In the game vs the Ultra Marine, his dice got really cold and mine hot in addition to his plasma inceptor mistake. And he gave me the repulsors because they were to far in front. So yes, I was ahed quite a bit. The reason why i droped the flyer near my characters was to let him get the rerolls and next turn fly off the board. As I wrote it was an all in move. In a turnament i woudn't have him droped and waited to turn 3 but in this particular game, I wanted both repulsors dead.

In the game with deathwatch. I did thought the woods were obsuring so I would have put the paladins on the left flank and the dreadnought in the left corner. The reason why I put the libby on the left side was the shoot+move power to free up astral aim for the paladins to shoot through the forest. I dodn't think he would blow up the dread turn 1 so it would shield the libby and I could have dropped the big blob of terminators to support the flank. I did throw 1700 points at about 800 and lost the Flank in thus game.

The reason why i did advance the libby to the other side in the open, was that he would get into range to voldus in order to gate him in range of my paladins. And That time I gave up the left side of the board, because there was an entire killteam inside the corvus next to the ruin and they would have charged and killed him anyway.

In the game later I play 10 Strikes to drop and psybolt something, because in the game vs the DW it didn't matter they were terminators. Only the justicar did survive the retaliation, so i can just take a squad with the same output and half the cost tu suicide.

Besides that I play max Psycannons on my terminators/paladins.

Lets see how it goes and I write a report of the game again. I hope this time my opponent makes it to me.

Warptravel is dangerous and not reliable this times..... hehe

The List for later is with Inner Fire Voldus:

+ HQ +

Grand Master Voldus [8 PL, 160pts]: Armoured Resilience, Empyrean Domination, Inner Fire

Librarian [6 PL, 105pts]: 6: Lore Master, Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity, Hammerhand, Sanctic Shard, Warlord . Nemesis Warding Stave

Lord Kaldor Draigo [10 PL, 190pts]: Edict Imperator, Warp Shaping

+ Troops +

Strike Squad [14 PL, 200pts] . 5x Grey Knight (Halberd): 5x Nemesis Force Halberd, 5x Storm Bolter . 4x Grey Knight (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter . Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Warding Stave

Terminator Squad [22 PL, 394pts]: Sanctuary .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 3x Terminator (Halberd): 3x Nemesis Force Halberd, 3x Storm Bolter . Terminator (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Terminator (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 4x Terminator (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter

Terminator Squad [11 PL, 197pts]: Gate of Infinity .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 2x Terminator (Halberd): 2x Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Storm Bolter . Terminator (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Terminator (Warding Stave): Storm Bolter

+ Elites +

Paladin Squad [30 PL, 543pts]: Sanctuary .

Paladin (Halberd): Storm Bolter . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 4x Paladin (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter . Paragon: Storm Bolter . . Nemesis Daemon Hammer: Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts] . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 155pts]: Astral Aim, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [113 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++

Edited August 25, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Corvus Fortis · August 25, 2020

Your suggestion to bring more paladins wouldn't help much, I think because I already lack units who can play the missions and another big unit will decrease the amout of models I can bring. And I lose more obsec.

Paladins play mission. It is almost impossible to remove them from objectives in single turn, which means, that you will score at least two points. It is almost guaranteed 10 VP. If you face horde armies, SBs will make short work of them. Against elite armies - concentrate on obsec units. Meanwhile, other part of your army may concentrate on getting 1-2 more objectives to score 15 VP in total. Never had problems with 2 paladin packs (10+5) yet.

I'm a fan of the Inner Fire apothecary on paper, and with a 8th edition mindset. The point where I consider the 9th secondarys, he is more a penalty than a help in the List. At least as an assassin. As a backup beatstick/Caster he is really good.

He may give up Assassination and Abhor the witch will be given up anyway, but it is almost always worth it, because denying opponent killing power or support will bring you more VP eventually. Btw, at my last tournament, he survived 2 out 3 games after IF bombing and almost survived 3rd game. If you are concerned about opponent's secondaries, you may just revert him to healing. For 80 pts he is always worth it regradless of use.

A good point to still use the smite tide for those problematic 3++ Units. Without a brother captain, this move is an all in thing, and can go south pretty fast. So for the time when you are desperate and would lose anyway?

I don't have problems of being in range even without BC. If I am not, probably those elite units are too far away anyway. 3++ is not that much and should fall to psybolts. Escalation is a good way to finish units off.

I thought about Inner Fire on draigo/volus, so when they go smashing, they can support that with Inner Fire. Maybe as 4th power on Voldus? It woudn't be the drop variant but a tool in the toolbox. The 3" deepstrike doesn't work with gate, does it?

I don't like it on any unit, but apothecary, simply because it hurt the caster. Both Draigo and Voldus want to lead the assault and sometimes may end up exposed. 3" deepstrike is only when you use teleport strike ability, so it cannot be used on draigo, GM/NDKs and any units, teleportarium stratagem or gate.

Silver-Fox · August 25, 2020

My Salamander Player cam and we could play our game. We rolled Misiion Nr. 23 - The Scouring.

Here is the first Problem, in order to get 5 primary you have to hole two objectives. Kind of hard to do.... So I will have to play quite agressive and offer my paladins to him.

Here are the Armys:

Grey Knights:

+ HQ +

Grand Master Voldus [8 PL, 160pts]: Armoured Resilience, Empyrean Domination, Inner Fire

Librarian [6 PL, 105pts]: 6: Lore Master, Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity, Hammerhand, Sanctic Shard, Warlord . Nemesis Warding Stave

Lord Kaldor Draigo [10 PL, 190pts]: Edict Imperator, Warp Shaping

+ Troops +

Strike Squad [14 PL, 200pts]: Vortex of Doom.

5x Grey Knight (Halberd): 5x Nemesis Force Halberd, 5x Storm Bolter . 4x Grey Knight (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter . Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Warding Stave

Terminator Squad [22 PL, 394pts]: Sanctuary .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 3x Terminator (Halberd): 3x Nemesis Force Halberd, 3x Storm Bolter . Terminator (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Terminator (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 4x Terminator (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter

Terminator Squad [11 PL, 197pts]: Gate of Infinity .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 2x Terminator (Halberd): 2x Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Storm Bolter . Terminator (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Terminator (Warding Stave): Storm Bolter

+ Elites +

Paladin Squad [30 PL, 543pts]: Sanctuary .

Paladin (Halberd): Storm Bolter . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 4x Paladin (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter . Paragon: Storm Bolter . . Nemesis Daemon Hammer: Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts] . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 155pts]: Astral Aim, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [113 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++

Salamanders:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Salamanders) [100 PL, 10CP, 1,997pts] ++

+ HQ +

Librarian in Phobos Armour [5 PL, 100pts]: 2) Fire Shield, 4) Drakeskin, Camo cloak

Primaris Captain (Indomitus) [5 PL, 105pts]: Forge Master, Obsidian Aquila, Warlord

Primaris Chaplain [5 PL, -2CP, 85pts]: 2. Catechism of Fire, 5. Recitation of Focus, Litany of Hate, Selfless Saviors, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: Master of Sanctity, Wise Orator

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 200pts]: Auto Bolt Rifle . 9x Intercessor: 9x Bolt pistol, 9x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant

[b]Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 200pts]: Auto Bolt Rifle . 9x Intercessor: 9x Bolt pistol, 9x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 102pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 200pts]: 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Flamestorm Gauntlets

Invictor Tactical Warsuit [8 PL, 165pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber

Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 153pts] . Dreadnought melee weapon: Dreadnought combat weapon, Storm bolter . Kheres assault cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Eradicator Squad [5 PL, 120pts]: Eradicator Sgt . 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Melta rifle

+ Dedicated Transport +

Repulsor [16 PL, 345pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, 2x Krakstorm Grenade Launcher, Las-talon, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [100 PL, 10CP, 1,997pts] ++

I did win the roll of for deployment and took the lazy side. I did reserve 10 Terminators, Voldus, 10 Strike and teleport strat the Servitors.

His Secondarys were: Engage on all Fronts, Mission specific: Strategic Scan, Raise the banners high

My Secondarys were: While we stand we fight, Scramblers, Linebreaker (was dumb but i did not know what else)

He did deploy everything. The Aggressors were in the Repulsor.

I did hide as much as I could

He won the roll for first turn, So:

Salamanders Turn 1

He moved forward with his guys on the line and let the Invictor stay in the middle to protect his phobos libby. The Librarian and the south squad plant the banners and the Eradicators did the mission specific action. He could only see draigo through the window but coudn't shoot him so that was his turn.

GK turn 1:

So I had to be aggressive and that's what I wanted to do.

I moved the Paladins up in the middle to get the control of the big ruin cluster to shoot out of it with astral aim in later turns. The gate terminator squad did stay and the servitors did advance to the objective behind the container. The Dreanough established LoS to the Invictor and Repulsor.

In the psycic phase, the paladins got Hammerhand, Sanctuary and astral aim. I did gate Draigo a bit forward so he was in 9,5" to the invictor as emergency plan. The Paladins were in a bit over 8"

Draigo did use 1 Cp to get +6" range and let the dreadought shoot the invictor. He did miss 1 shot and only wounds with 1 Lascannon, wich was saved on 6+ armour save. Then he moved behind the ruin.

In the shooting phase the paladins used 5 CP to fury of the firstborn, psybolt ammunition and psychic onslaught. The psycannons went into the Repulsor and did 7 dmg (he did pass 3 FnP out of 10 wounds), and brought the Invictor with the stormbolter fire to 1 wound. So I had to charge. luckily both carges were successfull and draigo punched the invictor really hard and consolidated to the librarian. The paladin double consolidated to wrap and trap the libby.

Salamanders Turn 2

He got 5 for primary, +1 for banners, 1x Scan complete( 3 pts)

Litanys: +1 to hit on the repulsor; +1 to wound failed on the repulsor

The aggressors got out of the repulsor and moved so they could see and then charge my paladins. (I have to take it sooner or later). He used the strat so they count as stationary. The big Intercessor unit with bolt rifles got into the ruin, ready to charge. The libby desperate break out'ed to the captain. In the shooting phase I transhumaned the paladins. After 120 flamer shots with rend -1 I lost only 3 paladins were dead. At the end of the pahse i had 3 paldins alive one with 1 wound left.

So the Salamanders charged in.

On the left side the Ven-Contemptor charged and killed the servitors.

The aggressors did charge Draigo and the Paldins, and the intercessors did charge only the paladins. After that it was not possible to charge in his captain. I did pop -1 dmg on draigo and fight on death for the paladins. After combar I had the paragon with another paladin on 1 wound standing and Draigo had 5 life left. He lost 4 aggressors and 5 Intercessors. In morale I did roll the natural 1 i needed with the paladins and he did pass his morale too. So he got 2 points for engage on all fronts.

GK Turn 2

I got no points for primary because the Intercessors were obsec and my Servitors are dead.

Ok I did keep one unit of Servitors in the teleportarium and dynamic inserted Voldus in 6,9 inches to the repulsor. The Ven-Dread did move to the left of the ruin to see the Dread and the repulsor. The libby advanced to the middle behind the Tower ruin and the gate terminators moved up the buard to prob. gate themselves on an objective or somewhere else. The 10 man Strike landed in the forest to take the objective. Auspex did nothing or he didn't do it... idk anymore. Draigo and the paladins stayed in combat.

So psychic phase: Voldus casts +1 Cp and used it to get +6" range to inner fire the repulsor. He did parryl on double 1's and took 2 mortals. Then he buffed Draigo with *1 to wound. The librarian buffed the terminators with astral aim and hammerhand and did gate voldus to him back in a save spot. Draigo changed the Tide to the Shadows and did perry with double 6's for a 1 dmg smite and took 3 wounds himself. Great.... The big terminator squad casts sanctuary on himself and the vortex strike squad did smite the intercessors in the middle ruin. (was closer to them than the other squad)

In the Shooting phase the strike squad dic take 3 wounds of the intercessors on the objective( +1 save strat from Salas). The Ven-Dread did target the Dread with the missle and the repulsor with the lascannon. He did miss 1 shot at the repulsor and rolled a 2 to wound. The missle hit and didn't wound with a 2 again. The rest of my shooting took 1 wound of the repulsor and another wound of the Ven-Contemptor from a cheeky stormbolter shot of Voldus.

I did fail the 9" chage on the Dread but succeeded with the 11" troll charge on the intercessors. The strike squad killed 3 intercessors and lost 3 in the backstrike. But i did destroy his banner and hold the objective. Draigo kills the aggressor and the paladins lost the wounded one and 1 hp from the paragon, but killed 2 intercessors.

So to Turn 3 for the Salamanders:

he got 15 on primary, +1 scan ( now 6 worth)

Litanys: CC rerols and 6" heroic did activate.

He moves up with his Dread to my dread. The captain, chaplain and the libby got into the ruin. His Eradicators and intercessors moved up closer to my strikes. The Chap killed my Paragon with his pistol and the Greanades on Draigo were tanked, thanks to the Tide of Shadows. I lost 4 terminators and the strike team in shooting.

He charged my Dread with his one and did murder him. So did all the chars with draigo.(the captain killed draigo with his 2 dmg sword on the point)

So at this point we only talked about the rest of the game and I conceeded. I had no chance to win at this point.

One thing I can say for sure. On paper the Ven Dread is good but this particular one hates me so much i will kick him out of my list now. He will be bannished to the darkes place in my closet. :devil:

Only Helebards on the strikes. I see the point now. If I had more of them I could have killed double the amount of intercessors. I will fix that. Maybe only 2 staves in 10 guys.

I think the psycannons on the terminators did do nothing much. Not sure if I keep them. On the paladins I will keep them because i lose models and so i can keep the firepower. And with 4 of them it's worth the CP to buff them.

I did like the insertion, inner fire than gate in savety combo. Thats a way I can imagin playing an appothecary.

I have to think about the other things in of the battle bevore i can get to more conclutions.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox · August 26, 2020

Ok I have 3 Options, I think about at the moment:

1. Going "back" to the 8th edition aproach and play double paladin bomb. (2x10) like Corvus Fortis suggests. I know its with 1 big and 1 small squad. But I dont like the small paladins ones.

The negative with that is the lacking boardpresence and the imense hunger on CP both bombs have. Hey I'm out of CP in round 2-3 with only one squad of palis.

That would be the quick list:

+ HQ +

Grand Master Voldus [8 PL, 160pts]: Armoured Resilience, Empyrean Domination, Inner Fire

Librarian [6 PL, 105pts]: 6: Lore Master, Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity, Hammerhand, Sanctic Shard, Warlord . Nemesis Warding Stave

Lord Kaldor Draigo [10 PL, 190pts]: Edict Imperator, Warp Shaping

+ Troops +

Strike Squad [7 PL, 100pts] .

3x Grey Knight (Halberd): 3x Nemesis Force Halberd, 3x Storm Bolter . Grey Knight (Warding Stave): Storm Bolter . Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd

Strike Squad [7 PL, 100pts] .

3x Grey Knight (Halberd): 3x Nemesis Force Halberd, 3x Storm Bolter . Grey Knight (Warding Stave): Storm Bolter . Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd

Terminator Squad [11 PL, 197pts] .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 2x Terminator (Halberd): 2x Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Storm Bolter . Terminator (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Terminator (Warding Stave): Storm Bolter

+ Elites +

Paladin Squad [30 PL, 543pts]: Sanctuary .

Paladin (Halberd): Storm Bolter . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 4x Paladin (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter . Paragon: Storm Bolter . . Nemesis Daemon Hammer: Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Paladin Squad [30 PL, 543pts]: Sanctuary .

Paladin (Halberd): Storm Bolter . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 4x Paladin (Warding Stave): 4x Nemesis Warding Stave, 4x Storm Bolter . Paragon: Storm Bolter . . Nemesis Daemon Hammer: Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts] . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor

++ Total: [113 PL, 12CP, 1,994pts] ++

2. Taking some Rhinos instead of the Ven-Dread.

With the Rhions I can play the objectives better and I watched the Canhammer stream, where he used 2x 5 sisters in rhinos as objective grabbers. I can thin about 2x servitors or maybe strikes in rhinos should do quite the same for us as GK.

I dont have a list for that but take the one from the battlereport and switch the vendread vs 2 rhinos.

3. Don't go pure Gk anymore and soupe with Scions.

Yeah I know we lose the tides, but I think they are not so powerfull anymore like in 8th. Without shooty tide I dont need Psycannons anymore and can still use the psybolt ammunition for turning my stormbolters in "old" heavybolter shots. High Ap and anti tank will be outsouced to the scions with drop Plasma and Taurox primes with -2 AP Autocannons and -3 Misslelaunchers. Plus Point: I dont need much CP anymore to buff my shooting and can focus on surviving. I have 3 fast transports, which hit really hard and can move 14". I got some "cheap" drop troops for mission play or addition plasma punch.

The List would look like this

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment CP [-2CP]

Regimental Doctrine: 133rd Lambdan Lions

"gives +1 Ap to all Weapons"

+ HQ +

Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 40pts]: Hot-shot Laspistol

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 70pts] .

2x Scion: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Hot-shot Lasgun . Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun . Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun . Tempestor: Chainsword, Plasma pistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 70pts] .

2x Scion: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Hot-shot Lasgun . Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun . Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun . Tempestor: Chainsword, Plasma pistol

+ Elites +

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 80pts] .

Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun .

Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun

+ Dedicated Transport +

Taurox Prime [7 PL, 150pts]: Taurox Missile Launcher, Two Autocannons

Taurox Prime [7 PL, 135pts]: Taurox Battle Cannon, Two Autocannons

"this will be empty and played a bit more agressive, thats why its cheaper with the Taurox battle cannon (D6 shot Autocannon with blast and dmg D3)

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [74 PL, 1,305pts] ++

+ HQ +

Grand Master Voldus [8 PL, 160pts]: 6: Lore Master, Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity, Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Warlord

Lord Kaldor Draigo [10 PL, 190pts]: Armoured Resilience, Empyrean Domination

+ Troops +

Strike Squad [7 PL, 100pts]: Vortex of Doom .

4x Grey Knight (Halberd): 4x Nemesis Force Halberd, 4x Storm Bolter . Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd

Terminator Squad [22 PL, 380pts]: Gate of Infinity .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 6x Terminator (Halberd): 6x Nemesis Force Halberd, 6x Storm Bolter . 3x Terminator (Warding Stave): 3x Nemesis Warding Stave, 3x Storm Bolter

Terminator Squad [22 PL, 380pts]: Gate of Infinity .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 6x Terminator (Halberd): 6x Nemesis Force Halberd, 6x Storm Bolter . 3x Terminator (Warding Stave): 3x Nemesis Warding Stave, 3x Storm Bolter

+ Elites +

Apothecary [5 PL, 95pts]: Inner Fire, Sanctic Shard . Nemesis Daemon Hammer: Nemesis Daemon Hammer

++ Total: [107 PL, 10CP, 2,000pts] ++

thats what is in my mind atm. I don't know when I can test those....

Edited August 26, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Corvus Fortis · August 26, 2020

Concerning your report - I feel like you need to be a little more concervative with CP. Using Psybolt+Onslaught on the same unit isn't efficient. I don't like using Onslaught at all, TBH, but I admit, that against Salamanders it may be worth it. I'd prefere to spend this CP for another round of psybolts with terminators later on. Or use them for Bring it Down. Also, -1 damage strat works only in shooting phase, unfortunately. You also seem pretty unlucky with the vendread. I must admit, it is swingy and I had game where it did nothing. But, in general, he is worth his points.

1. Going "back" to the 8th edition aproach and play double paladin bomb. (2x10) like Corvus Fortis suggests. I know its with 1 big and 1 small squad. But I dont like the small paladins ones.

The negative with that is the lacking boardpresence and the imense hunger on CP both bombs have. Hey I'm out of CP in round 2-3 with only one squad of palis.

That would be the quick list:

I use 15 paladins too. Maybe, this is even better way. Yes, they are CP hungry, but such is our design. We are very CP-reliant.

2. Taking some Rhinos instead of the Ven-Dread.

With the Rhions I can play the objectives better and I watched the Canhammer stream, where he used 2x 5 sisters in rhinos as objective grabbers. I can thin about 2x servitors or maybe strikes in rhinos should do quite the same for us as GK.

I dont have a list for that but take the one from the battlereport and switch the vendread vs 2 rhinos.

I don't like rhinos, because we don't bring much vehicles, and they are getting focus-fired with any AT our opponents have. But if you bring 3, may be worth a try.

3. Don't go pure Gk anymore and soupe with Scions.

Yeah I know we lose the tides, but I think they are not so powerfull anymore like in 8th. Without shooty tide I dont need Psycannons anymore and can still use the psybolt ammunition for turning my stormbolters in "old" heavybolter shots. High Ap and anti tank will be outsouced to the scions with drop Plasma and Taurox primes with -2 AP Autocannons and -3 Misslelaunchers. Plus Point: I dont need much CP anymore to buff my shooting and can focus on surviving. I have 3 fast transports, which hit really hard and can move 14". I got some "cheap" drop troops for mission play or addition plasma punch.

The List would look like this

I like the concept of old demon hunters, but scions will probably be blown off after getting on the board. Also, lack of tides will make our shooting ineffective. D2 was the best part of tide of convergence. Psybolt without them isn't nearly as good. So I don't know, how it ends up working. Let us know, how the things are going. I am very interested in this one. Perhaps, lack of tides not as bad as we think?

Silver-Fox · August 28, 2020

Thank you for the Feedback.

I still have to figure out wich concept I like to most.

I won't try the Rhino version because I don't own any of them and the double paladins are too CP hungry.

After reading the thread of skywrath, I'm thinking about a tricky concept with a Landraider. My "Trick" in the list with the LR will be that:

I combat squad the 10 man unit of paladins in 4x psycannons(the shooty unit) + 1 Stave and Hammer-Paragon 2x staves 2x Helebard. The 5 man Unit will be buffed with Hammerhand, sanctuary etc. and be gated to preassure an objective and played hyper agressive. (So it will use less CP for defensive buffs because they are only 5 man strong)

The shooty squad goes in the Landraider. A caster is behind the Landraider. In a turn I want to shoot the cannons, the shooty squad gets out 3" + 5" move and get LoS. Then in the psycic phase the LR will get astral Aim and The shoot and move power on the paladins. They pop +1 to hit (fury of the firstborn) and psychic onslaught (buff Psycannons to str9 -2 dmg2) and shoot a target. Then they move 5" back to the LR and get back in. They can do it because it is another phase. (I got out in move and get in in psychic phase). The benefit would be, that I can play a poar of the paldins to the role they will be used in most liste (to get in the face of the opponent and be anoying) and still do the dmg in ranged with the 4 psycannons. The benefit is that they have the terminator keyword unless the pugator squad and can negate the -1 to hit with the terminator strat to profit from full rerolls with draigo. In lategame, when I dont have much/no cp left, they can go and make some pressure with the Helebards. They are still paladins.

The List I'm tinkering at the moment would be this:

+ HQ +

Grand Master Voldus [8 PL, 160pts]

Librarian [6 PL, 105pts]: Warlord . Nemesis Warding Stave

Lord Kaldor Draigo [10 PL, 190pts]

+ Troops +

Strike Squad [7 PL, 100pts] .

4x Grey Knight (Halberd): 4x Nemesis Force Halberd, 4x Storm Bolter . Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd

Strike Squad [7 PL, 100pts] .

4x Grey Knight (Halberd): 4x Nemesis Force Halberd, 4x Storm Bolter . Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd

Terminator Squad [22 PL, 380pts] .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 6x Terminator (Halberd): 6x Nemesis Force Halberd, 6x Storm Bolter . 3x Terminator (Warding Stave): 3x Nemesis Warding Stave, 3x Storm Bolter

+ Elites +

Apothecary [5 PL, 80pts] . Nemesis Force Sword

"gets prob. the relic sword for more punch. Coudn't find the points for the hammer"

Paladin Squad [30 PL, 543pts] .

2x Paladin (Halberd): 2x Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Storm Bolter . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 3x Paladin (Warding Stave): 3x Nemesis Warding Stave, 3x Storm Bolter . Paragon: Storm Bolter . . Nemesis Daemon Hammer: Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts] . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor

+ Heavy Support +

Land Raider [15 PL, 285pts]: Twin Heavy Bolter, 2x Twin Lascannon

++ Total: [114 PL, 12CP, 1,999pts] ++

The GK + Scions List variant is like the old times with Demonhunters. We had the inqusitorial Henchmen, who where quasi scions.

With the 9th edition Custodes got the Sister who fill the role and i would be cool to get them back with GK.

I will have to finetune them a bit. I tend to not give the troops special weapons and try to get 3 Squads of them for more deepstrike boardcontrol and the "drop + action" play like scramblers.

I have some friends over at my house at saturday. So maybe I can make a spontanius game with one of them. I would test one of the two mentioned lists or the last one. I'll have to proxy the scions with some of my madmax themed astra militarum+knights army.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox · August 31, 2020

At Saturday i coudn't fit in a GK game because I was buissy playing 2 games Guard AI for our Crussade campain.

To get some more games in, I did register to the T5 Season 2 EU Pod of the Tactical Turtoise. I did consider a double paladin list, double Ven-Dread + GMNDK list and the one I will take, the Landraider 10 paladin list.

What speaks for that list and against the other two are:

- We got not enough CP to fuel a double Paladin List, or I can't play it for now.

- I want to give the paladins the Astral Aim and want to move + shoot the GMNDK, what leaves my Dreads in the open. And they die pretty quick and give up a psyker kill.

- To maximise Move+ shoot power and Astral Aim I took the Landraider (move+shoot without splitting the paladins) and Astral Aim for the paladins. If I combat squad the paladins, I switch the powers around and buff the 4x psycannon+stave squad with shoot+move, to empark them in the LR, which gets Astral Aim to stay save.

-4 Lascannons don't use my CP like a NDk

- The 10 man Strike Squad gets me 10 "cheap" deepstriking SB for the psybolt ammunition strat and the 5 man Terminator units should be better at holding objectives, then the strikes.

The List is:

+ Stratagems +

Armoury of Titan [-1CP]: 1 Additional Relic

"Relic Sword for more punch in the List. and fight Deathguard 4+ invul things because they are deamons. and it costs 0 pts "

+ HQ +

Grand Master Voldus [8 PL, 160pts]: 6: Lore Master, Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity, Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Warlord

"With the WL trait he has all the buffs to close the holes"

Librarian [6 PL, 105pts]: Edict Imperator, Empyrean Domination, Sanctic Shard . Nemesis Warding Stave

"with the shard he should cast the +1 Cp pretty save and keep my army going. We need so much CP and so I can't affort not to get the power through. The shoot+move power is pretty important too, so it's on the better caster."

Lord Kaldor Draigo [10 PL, 190pts]: Armoured Resilience, Warp Shaping

"Warp Shape on a different souce than the Edict Imperator, to handle the tides a bit more smooth. Resiliance on him to have the option to selfbuff him."

+ Troops +

Strike Squad [14 PL, 200pts]: Astral Aim . 9x Grey Knight (Halberd): 9x Nemesis Force Halberd, 9x Storm Bolter . Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd

"10xSB squad. This time with only Helebards for the extra dmg output IF they make the charge. A kind of fire and forget unit with the psybolt ammunition stratagem. The Astral Aim is for situations where I can drop them save and hit something hard. Having the option doesn't hurt."

Terminator Squad [11 PL, 190pts]: Gate of Infinity .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 3x Terminator (Halberd): 3x Nemesis Force Halberd, 3x Storm Bolter . Terminator (Warding Stave): Storm Bolter

Terminator Squad [11 PL, 190pts]: Gate of Infinity .

Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Storm bolter . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 3x Terminator (Halberd): 3x Nemesis Force Halberd, 3x Storm Bolter . Terminator (Warding Stave): Storm Bolter

"double Gate on the terminators, to keep them mobile"

+ Elites +

Apothecary [5 PL, 80pts]: Blade of the Forsworn, Inner Fire . Nemesis Force Sword

"Inner Fire combo, and added punch with the Relic. No Points for a Hammer otehrwise he would have the 5+ FNP"

Paladin Squad [30 PL, 543pts]: Sanctuary .

2x Paladin (Halberd): 2x Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Storm Bolter . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . Paladin (Psycannon): Psycannon (Terminator) . . Nemesis Force Halberd . 3x Paladin (Warding Stave): 3x Nemesis Warding Stave, 3x Storm Bolter . Paragon: Storm Bolter . . Nemesis Daemon Hammer: Nemesis Daemon Hammer

"My go to Tanky + punchy unit. With the option to split them in a 4 psycannon "terminator purgation squad" and a 5 man punchy Hammer squad, I should be quite flexible. And if I use the 5 man unit agressive it costs only 1 Cp to do the -1 dmg stratagem."

Servitors [2 PL, 28pts] . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor . Servitor

"cheap bodys on the board and can safe my char setup in the LR from dieing in an explosion. One squad will be in teleportatiom to be more flexible. The other one is on the board to make a first turn Scrambler for me in my or the No mans land, if it is possible to place the LR pretty safe on the front of my deployment."

+ Heavy Support +

Land Raider [15 PL, 285pts]: Twin Heavy Bolter, 2x Twin Lascannon

"I wanted to fit the missle on the LR but i coudn't find the 5 pts to do so"

++ Total: [114 PL, 11CP, 1,999pts] ++

Edited August 31, 2020 by Silver-Fox

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