Scale and silhouette of legacy Adeptus Astartes

[War Angel]

Question for the people who think OG marines will have further releases down the line. Do you think that will be at their current size, or is that going to be upscalled to be online with Primaris?

 

Because at that point it’s not OG. It’s not the old size, it’s the new size.

[Lucerne]

Question for the people who think OG marines will have further releases down the line. Do you think that will be at their current size, or is that going to be upscalled to be online with Primaris?

 

Because at that point it’s not OG. It’s not the old size, it’s the new size.

Ideally, Primaris.

Realistically, around nuCSM scale.

[Dracos]

I think 10th will see the release of new Guard, Chaos and Firstborn sculpts along the line of Black Fortress.

[WrathOfTheLion]

They will be CSM/close to Primaris size.

 

All new sculpts are in this scale. Even the Horus Heresy sculpts are going this direction, the MK III kit is sort of an in-between old-style kit and Primaris/CSM style kit. It has separated legs to have a more upright pose and to not be as squat. The even newer ones like the Dreadwing Interemptors are almost the same size as a modern Chaos Space Marine.

[Mandragola]

 

 

its better to say there hasn't been mainline non limited non blind bag GW releases

 

 

Indeed it is.  Saying the blanket statement "We've seen 0 oldmarine releases in the past 3 years" is an actual lie.  Saying 'yeah but i obviously meant mainline troops boxes and vehicles' is great, but if thats what you mean you should state it

 

All you have to do is add the qualifier of something like 'mainline' or 'standard squad'.  Otherwise a release can mean any model in any kind of release format...

 

What I mean is, there are no more oldmarines on sale for space marine armies now than there were 3 years ago. I don't include reprints of models in board games or limited heroes releases that you can't actually buy in most of the world. I also don't count Legion-specific heresy releases armed with esoteric weapons that can't be used in 40k. I'm not aware of any oldmarine characters that have come out since 8th began. My point is that the range you can buy from GW grew, I believe, by precisely 0 models in that time.

 

I'd love it if they did a Primaris-scale version of vanguard veterans. I think that, if they do, they'll be in MkX armour of some kind though. They might have slightly different weapon options due to Cawl's new tech, so for example you might get Shrike's retractable lightning claws - or who knows what. There are ways they could do that to bring in a new option for building these guys, without writing off the old versions.

 

I'd still be surprised if they did that though, based on what they've done so far. They seem to prefer to invent new units, like say bladeguard or eradicators, rather than updating old units like Sternguard, vanguard vets or devastators to Primaris scale. I don't know if I agree with that decision, but it does appear to be what they've gone for.

[jaxom]

Yeah, early Heresy infantry sculpts are cringe worthy at this point.

[Robbienw]

Question for the people who think OG marines will have further releases down the line. Do you think that will be at their current size, or is that going to be upscalled to be online with Primaris?

 

Because at that point it’s not OG. It’s not the old size, it’s the new size.

Probably the same scale as the rescaled normal SM stuff now like the SM heroes, deathwatch, csm, etc.

 

But size change doesn’t make them not classic marines. If they are bigger but with mk6/7/8 armour and standard bolters, they are classics.

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

 

 

its better to say there hasn't been mainline non limited non blind bag GW releases

 

Indeed it is. Saying the blanket statement "We've seen 0 oldmarine releases in the past 3 years" is an actual lie. Saying 'yeah but i obviously meant mainline troops boxes and vehicles' is great, but if thats what you mean you should state it

 

All you have to do is add the qualifier of something like 'mainline' or 'standard squad'. Otherwise a release can mean any model in any kind of release format...

What I mean is, there are no more oldmarines on sale for space marine armies now than there were 3 years ago. I don't include reprints of models in board games or limited heroes releases that you can't actually buy in most of the world. I also don't count Legion-specific heresy releases armed with esoteric weapons that can't be used in 40k. I'm not aware of any oldmarine characters that have come out since 8th began. My point is that the range you can buy from GW grew, I believe, by precisely 0 models in that time.

This is why it’s best to say what you actually mean in the first instance ;)

 

The Space Marine Heroes were available worldwide and were easy to get, they were not only restricted to Japan (they just came out there first).

 

Forgeworld did 4 characters that came out since 8th began, Gabriel Angelos, the Sirae Karagon and Casan Sabius Set and the Culln Leviathan dreadnought.

[Blindhamster]

if they do a slight redesign of the earlier mk armours in primaris scale i'd be pretty happy honestly. We shall see if they do, id not complain though. Still think such a thing is most likely to happen alongside a general shrinking of the lineup and merging of the two types into just being "marines" again.

kinda like mk7 becoming the new norm after mk6 was, but it'd be mkX is default with cool bits from all the earlier marks across the range and at the general size of primaris.

[War Angel]

 

Question for the people who think OG marines will have further releases down the line. Do you think that will be at their current size, or is that going to be upscalled to be online with Primaris?

Because at that point it’s not OG. It’s not the old size, it’s the new size.

Probably the same scale as the rescaled normal SM stuff now like the SM heroes, deathwatch, csm, etc.

But size change doesn’t make them not classic marines. If they are bigger but with mk6/7/8 armour and standard bolters, they are classics.

Then what makes them classic marines? Because it’s not the stat line. And the style has changed through the years. It’s the size. That’s what hasn’t changed since second edition.

[Robbienw]

No it would be the style. Mk7 hasn’t changed much since 1990, the current kit is still obviously the same thing as the original 1990 version, just more refined and detailed. Them getting slightly bigger or smaller does not change that :lol:

[War Angel]

No it would be the style. Mk7 hasn’t changed much since 1990, the current kit is still obviously the same thing as the original 1990 version, just more refined and detailed. Them getting slightly bigger or smaller does not change that :lol:

No, the box it’s sold in has various armor marks in it. Throwing in a few forgeworld kits to spice things up doesn’t split your forces into “old marines” and “forgeworld Marines”.

 

Size is the deciding factor.

 

You can try this at home. Put a beakie Marine next to a Mark 3 iron marine. Do you call one an old marine? If/when they make upscaled tactical marines, put the larger tactical next to the smaller tactical. They are no longer in the same category.

[quasistellar]

I think the reasoning for regular marines going to 2w is pretty simple.   It's more representative of the difference between a Space Marine and your non-genetically-engineered supersoldiers like humans, eldar, tau, etc.

 

Now, the difference between a Firstborn and Primaris is fairly minor, but it's there.  Many people write off the difference in attacks as not important, but in practice it's pretty significant, especially when you throw a thunderhammer on a sergeant.  So far in 9th, getting into melee to clear troops off objectives so you can be in scoring position going into round 5 is really important.

 

As a person who doesn't have a single Firstborn non-character in his Iron Hands army, I view this is a great and much needed change.  As soon as news leaked, though, I grabbed some Tartaros terminators, and will be grabbing some Cataphractii.  I might actually use these Mk3 marines I've been holding onto as Tacticals instead of conversion bits, as well (but not without a little tru-scaling since I still cannot stand the proportions of these as much as I love the aesthetic).

[jaxom]

Space Marines haven't changed much since 1990. 

 

  

 

Silhouette is one of, if not the, greatest design principles. Focusing too much on the non-silhouette details of the head is usually considered a flaw if the goal is to have a recognizable product from a distance. It's one of the reasons that the different marks of marine armour are all recognizably the same despite the details; they fit the appropriate silhouette. Even then, the majority of the difference in the should pads and helmet. The abdomen differences are not usually noticeable from the angle looking down at the board (MkIII metal 'tabard' being an exception). 

 

It thus takes a head-and-pauldrons swap to get the look it seems folks are clamoring for (and the bits are readily available from bit sites and/or ebay). 

 

From https://fummelfinger.blogspot.com/2017/07/truescale-ultramarine-veterans.html

 

e I recommend this podcast: http://www.betweenthebolterandme.com/2020/08/dragged-into-turbolasers-episode-75.html It's an interesting take on the whole scale issue.

[jaxom]

Apologies for the double post, but I was working on the last one and a few new posts were made.

 

 

No it would be the style. Mk7 hasn’t changed much since 1990, the current kit is still obviously the same thing as the original 1990 version, just more refined and detailed. Them getting slightly bigger or smaller does not change that

No, the box it’s sold in has various armor marks in it. Throwing in a few forgeworld kits to spice things up doesn’t split your forces into “old marines” and “forgeworld Marines”.

Size is the deciding factor.

You can try this at home. Put a beakie Marine next to a Mark 3 iron marine. Do you call one an old marine? If/when they make upscaled tactical marines, put the larger tactical next to the smaller tactical. They are no longer in the same category.

 

 

Here's what I could put together off the cuff:

 

 

I'd say new (Primaris) and old (everything pre-Primaris) kits are indeed determined by scale. The second edition marine is smaller than the third edition+ models, but so much as to be glaring from a few feet away. The marines are all noticeably marines in contrast to the guardsman, regardless of scale. The Emperor's Champion has the most appropriate proportions out of the marines, but is still barely taller than the Guardsman. One would not think the EC is part of the Guard model line. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by jaxom

[War Angel]

Apologies for the double post, but I was working on the last one and a few new posts were made.

 

 

 

No it would be the style. Mk7 hasn’t changed much since 1990, the current kit is still obviously the same thing as the original 1990 version, just more refined and detailed. Them getting slightly bigger or smaller does not change that

No, the box it’s sold in has various armor marks in it. Throwing in a few forgeworld kits to spice things up doesn’t split your forces into “old marines” and “forgeworld Marines”.

 

Size is the deciding factor.

 

You can try this at home. Put a beakie Marine next to a Mark 3 iron marine. Do you call one an old marine? If/when they make upscaled tactical marines, put the larger tactical next to the smaller tactical. They are no longer in the same category.

Here's what I could put together off the cuff:

 

 

I'd say new (Primaris) and old (everything pre-Primaris) kits are indeed determined by scale. The second edition marine is smaller than the third edition+ models, but so much as to be glaring from a few feet away. The marines are all noticeably marines in contrast to the guardsman, regardless of scale. The Emperor's Champion has the most appropriate proportions out of the marines, but is still barely taller than the Guardsman. One would not think the EC is part of the Guard model line.

Thank the emperor were never going back to that.

[Robbienw]

 

No it would be the style. Mk7 hasn’t changed much since 1990, the current kit is still obviously the same thing as the original 1990 version, just more refined and detailed. Them getting slightly bigger or smaller does not change that :lol:

No, the box it’s sold in has various armor marks in it. Throwing in a few forgeworld kits to spice things up doesn’t split your forces into “old marines” and “forgeworld Marines”.

 

Size is the deciding factor.

 

You can try this at home. Put a beakie Marine next to a Mark 3 iron marine. Do you call one an old marine? If/when they make upscaled tactical marines, put the larger tactical next to the smaller tactical. They are no longer in the same category.

You are missing my point. If you do a new replacement version of the current tactical squad for example, in the same style, representing the same thing, but larger (or smaller) scale, they are still standard classic marines. Just a new version. Rather like the space marine heroes tacticals compared to the the tactical set.

 

Similarly, if GW did an updated intercessor kit, and the scale was smaller, they would still be Primaris intercessor marines.

 

The size is completely irrelevant. It’s the design, the look.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Robbienw

[War Angel]

 

 

No it would be the style. Mk7 hasn’t changed much since 1990, the current kit is still obviously the same thing as the original 1990 version, just more refined and detailed. Them getting slightly bigger or smaller does not change that :lol:

No, the box it’s sold in has various armor marks in it. Throwing in a few forgeworld kits to spice things up doesn’t split your forces into “old marines” and “forgeworld Marines”.

Size is the deciding factor.

You can try this at home. Put a beakie Marine next to a Mark 3 iron marine. Do you call one an old marine? If/when they make upscaled tactical marines, put the larger tactical next to the smaller tactical. They are no longer in the same category.

You are missing my point. If you do a new replacement version of the current tactical squad for example, in the same style, representing the same thing, but larger (or smaller) scale, they are still standard classic marines. Just a new version. Rather like the space marine heroes tacticals compared to the the tactical set.

Similarly, if GW did an updated intercessor kit, and the scale was smaller, they would still be Primaris intercessor marines.

The size is completely irrelevant. It’s the design, the look.

No, they are not. The classic Marine is a size not a style. A sternguard looks completely different from what comes in the tactical box. But it’s still considered OG. The same is true for vanguard, and terminators.

 

They style isn’t even the same amongst all the different parts in the individual boxes. Old marines are a size, not a look. If they make a Primaris sized mk7, he would fit right in with a Primaris squad. However he would stand out in an old marine squad.

[Robbienw]

Your definition of a classic marine is....very odd. I haven’t heard anyone else refer to classic marines in this way.

 

The generally accepted definition is anything that came before Primaris, the standard marine type, the only marine type until 2017. It’s definetly the design style.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, this is what I am referring to when I say classic (or standard, or firstborn) marine.

 

Size is completely irrelevant.

[Blindhamster]

Arguably classic marines are mk 6 and 7 and probably 8. Heresy marines are most 2-5 and primaris are mk X.

 

Yeah I know mks 2-5 had a few old metal models and even a few plastic parts along the way too, but when people think space marine, they typically think of mk7 or 6 depending on their (the persons) age.

 

Primaris are associated most specifically with tacticus as its what's usually shown for promotional art.

 

Heresy marines first thought tends to be mk3 or mk4 I think.

 

 

Anyway, the silhouette of all of them is pretty similar, theres a reason that even mkx doeant really mess with the top of the helm shape, the shoulders, the lower legs or the backpack particularly.

 

They're all just marines, and the scale tends to be the big divider for most people I suppose.

[Blindhamster]

But yeah, in terms of the enforced distinction of the game rules there are primaris and not primaris. I.e. models with the primaris keyword and models without

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t see any good reason for geedub to release anything new for OG Marines.

[Blindhamster]

Because people still like them and still buy them. Its doubtful I'd buy them unless they're in primaris proportions but many others would and that's cool!

[War Angel]

Your definition of a classic marine is....very odd. I haven’t heard anyone else refer to classic marines in this way.

The generally accepted definition is anything that came before Primaris, the standard marine type, the only marine type until 2017. It’s definetly the design style.

For the avoidance of doubt, this is what I am referring to when I say classic (or standard, or firstborn) marine.

Size is completely irrelevant.

It’s a little inconsistent though. I’m the years just before 2017 mk9 was added, and centurions. Your saying anything before 2017 is classic as a hard cutoff date, but there’s only one thing that they all share, and it’s the scale. If size wasn’t the only issue, I would point out that Primaris uses parts of other marks in its design, and would also qualify as a resizing of classic armor patterns.

Because people still like them and still buy them. Its doubtful I'd buy them unless they're in primaris proportions but many others would and that's cool!

What else would they release?

[jaxom]

Space Marines haven't changed much since 1990. 

 

  

 

Just to be clear, the model on the left is an early third edition Tactical Marine and the model on the right is an Intercessor scaled down so the bases match better.

 

The only major differences are the size of the bolt weapon and the helmet style. I highly doubt GW will green light an upscaled Mk6-8 kit over those two major differences. The rest of the differences are either obscured (abdomen armoring for example) or knees. I think it is much more likely that in some far distant future when we get Intercessor kit 2.0 that it includes those sorts of details.