Hellblaster loadout for 9e

[Alcyon]

 

Then just don't overcharge them. How often do you need to overcharge against an enemy that is triggering Blast anyway? 

 

 

 

How often do you need to shoot AP-4 at a unit with 1w? Take it easy, we're just talking about plastic army men.

[Minsc]

 

 

Then just don't overcharge them. How often do you need to overcharge against an enemy that is triggering Blast anyway? 

 

 

 

How often do you need to shoot AP-4 at a unit with 1w? Take it easy, we're just talking about plastic army men.

 

Inceptors Plasma Exterminators are AP-3, and there are many targets I would aim those S7 AP3 D1-weapons at. 

 

With that said, I don't see how "more shots  = bad". That sounds like a real first world problem. :P

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Smurfs have a strat to reroll 1s. :D

[Alcyon]

I think Inceptors got cheaper in part because they face increased plasma risk from the combo of unmodified 1s (you can't make it safe anymore with a Chaplain for example) and increased number of shots (blast rule). IMO you're best off firing overcharged plasma as a 1w model because you lose the least on a 1, and Inceptors make that pain worse by making you lose a 3w t5 model. So I like Hellblasters from a cost efficiency point of view there. But I could also just be justifying my affection for the model design over Inceptors (and their stupid flying bases!)

[Klod]

I'll be getting heavy variants some time later. I just love how they look.

[Dracos]

 

More shots per model increases the risk of death substantially. When shooting at a unit of 6 or more models, 2/3 Inceptors will die without re-rolls. Re-roll 1s drops that to 16% per shooting phase which is still high for a 3w t5 model to die instantly. CM re-roll still kills 1/3 Inceptors per phase on average. See this Goonhammer article: https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-weapon-changes-in-9th-edition/

Then just don't overcharge them. How often do you need to overcharge against an enemy that is triggering Blast anyway? 

 

 

I would have agreed a lot more with that a few days ago before everything in power armor (slight exaggeration - so far) went up to 2Ws. Those Chaos armies have a tendency to have at least a 10+ squad of Troops (Death Guard and Rubrics?) that need to die and die quickly as possible. If it means losing 2 of my 6 Inceptors in a Turn, so be it. But I have no problem sacrificing units to a meat grinder of it gets me VP.

[War Angel]

Which is better? Plasma inceptors or chaos oblitorators?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s a hard call but five Ultramarines Plasmaceptors can absolutely wreck most anything.

[emperorpants]

That’s a hard call but five Ultramarines Plasmaceptors can absolutely wreck most anything.

What's more, against 6 man squads they actually get the same amount of shots as the bolter version due to having blast. This makes them better than the bolter version at hoard clearance as well if you need it, no overcharging necessary.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Bolter version has always been the inferior choice imo .

[Sarges]

So here is this from Dakka:

[CCE1981]

So the Hellblasters gun got the Bolt Rifle treatment. Much needed, places the guns where they needed to be.

[emperorpants]

So looks like I was right. The heavy variant now has a good niche and looks like it might be viable, as long as the points are right.

[Gothical]

With the arrival of Eradicators for anti-tank/monster work, I think the Hellblaster niche is going to be on taking down elite heavily-armoured infantry. To do that I think the Assault version may be superior because although it is only D1 (though I would assume you can Overcharge it for D2 in a very suicidal pinch) a unit is going to put out a massive volume of shots to take down 2 or 3 wound enemies.

 

The Heavy variant is nice to do some long-ranged work thanks to the D2 allowing it to take out Primaris squads etc from long distance, but the single-shot nature of the weapon could lead to disappointing returns.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens to the Inceptor plasma weapons to see if it adjusts my thinking on this.

[TheNewman]

Holy carp, three shot Plasma guns? Gonna be some salt right there

 

 

Also, why the feth would the Assault version have the scope and not the Rapid Fire version? That makes no sense.

Edited August 20, 2020 by TheNewman

[War Angel]

Holy carp, three shot Plasma guns? Gonna be some salt right there

Also, why the feth would the Assault version have the scope and not the Rapid Fire version? That makes no sense.

Cause it’s a sight, used for lining up quicker shots at close range than a scope.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Well if this is true I can say I'm pretty happy.

 

My Raven Guard always had the assault version modeled, and I think I'm liking that Assault 3 change....although it definitely carries some risk that's for sure!

 

And for my Black Templar models I couldn't wait and decided to go rule of cool and modeled them with the Heavy variant anyhow before seeing this, which looks like it's going to be a D2/D3 weapon, so that makes me happy.  I always felt the rapid fire variant was middling and milquetoast.

[Gothical]

Thinking a little more about this, I still like the Assault variant but have come around a little on the heavy variant - assuming a 3 Damage overcharge, being able to one-hit-KO stuff like Custodes and Terminators could be very valuable (though risky on units with good invulnerable saves) and since you are firing less you have less chance of blowing your guys up compared to the Assault variant. Long range, in cover, keeping elite units on their toes really could be useful.

 

Ultimately it will all come down to points costs. After all, if 3 Eradicators shoot at a single Terminator/Custodes squad then you are looking at 6 damage 3 (minimum) shots, outperforming the 5 shots from a minimum Hellblaster squad with the heavy variant. You could use this to your advantage to cause target priority issues for the opponent, but that strategy is eating into valuable Heavy Support slots (where the Las/Melta Gladiator will also be able to shred elite infantry and vehicles like both Hellblasters and Eradicators).

[Alcyon]

Yeah we'll have to see if points changes happen again in the new codex although I honestly doubt it. I think we're probably staying where we are if the codexes drop next month, just think about the timeline - I really doubt the CA book came out just to give us a one-month heads up.

 

I think the math says the Assault variant, just like the Bolt Rifle, is better against anything T7 or below because the extra shot offsets the S7/8 difference, especially when you factor in getting three shots at 24" versus having to close to 15" for the rapid fire variant. For anything T8 and above I think the Heavy variant is going to be best given the lower risk of overcharge death, D2 and longer range - if you needed close range, you'd just run the Assault variant. So the datasheet is now even more of a combination of a Company Veteran plasmagunner option and a Devastator Squad. Less mobility I guess but 1 shot at more than 15" with D1 is so sad in comparison to the Heavy variant.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My issue with the heavy exterminator is the low rate of fire for a squad. You can probably do more damage with the rapid fire exterminator just due to weight of dice .

[Blindhamster]

My issue with the heavy exterminator is the low rate of fire for a squad. You can probably do more damage with the rapid fire exterminator just due to weight of dice .

weren't you advocating stalkers as more efficient out of the bolter types in a different thread? by the same logic, the heavy exterminator is more efficient for plasma surely?

 

I personally could see all options being fun depending on battlefield role desired.

[Xenith]

Well, heavies will be best for punching primaris without support. Assault have the absolute max burst damage potential with a high risk of models killing themselves, so need support. RF ones are somewhere in the middle. 

 

You have to decide if that support character is worth more than the 3-4 extra hellblasters you might be able to get for the same cost.

 

However: I think we really have to consider the movement options for 9th. one suffers a penalty for moving + shooting, one doesnt, and one can move up to 2x speed with a penalty. 

 

I'm preferrring assault versions due to the apparent greater mobility required in 9th. BA assault plasmas will be able to move 8 - 13" per turn and shoot. Lots of potential for a jump captain to stick with them.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Xenith

[Riddlesworth]

 

 

My issue with the heavy exterminator is the low rate of fire for a squad. You can probably do more damage with the rapid fire exterminator just due to weight of dice .

weren't you advocating stalkers as more efficient out of the bolter types in a different thread? by the same logic, the heavy exterminator is more efficient for plasma surely?

 

I personally could see all options being fun depending on battlefield role desired.

All plasma can do 2 damage. Rapid fire plasma and heavy break the to wound bracket (to 2+) against T4, but rapid fire gets 2 shots. Its objectively better.

 

Stalkers are the only bolter that do 2 damage. Different comparison.

 

Given the leaks today, that math may change - heavy looking at 2 damage, overcharge to 3 maybe

[Blindhamster]

literally talking about the concept that heavy is base 2, vs the rest being base 1. exactly like the bolters. I don't get why you'd work from a point other than that at that point when discussing it.

 

The rapid fire is decent still, but its no longer the automatically best plasma exterminator. It can do 2 shots if the marine is within 15" to do 2 damage without overcharing, or it can overcharge to do to damage at >15" or overcharge within 15" to potentially do 4 damage. But overcharging comes with the risk of death.

 

The heavy having a higher base damage means it doesn't typically need to even think about overcharging, but even when it does, its risk is lower than the others for its potential damage.

 

On the other end of the scale you have the assault version, which can do 3 damage within 24" and has a good threat range due to being able to move, advance and still fire. It's lower strength means it wont wound marines on 2s but it does still wound toughness 3 on 2s. It can spike all the way up to 6 damage but is considerably more risky rolling 3 times per marine compared to once for the heavy or once or twice compared to the rapid fire.

 

All three feel pretty nicely balanced considering their risk/reward, but I do think generally the rapid fire version actually went from being straight up best to marginally at the bottom of the pile except for niche circumstances.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

My issue with the heavy exterminator is the low rate of fire for a squad. You can probably do more damage with the rapid fire exterminator just due to weight of dice .

weren't you advocating stalkers as more efficient out of the bolter types in a different thread? by the same logic, the heavy exterminator is more efficient for plasma surely?

 

I personally could see all options being fun depending on battlefield role desired.

All plasma can do 2 damage. Rapid fire plasma and heavy break the to wound bracket (to 2+) against T4, but rapid fire gets 2 shots. Its objectively better.

 

Stalkers are the only bolter that do 2 damage. Different comparison.

 

Given the leaks today, that math may change - heavy looking at 2 damage, overcharge to 3 maybe

 

.

^^ This .