Hellblaster loadout for 9e

[Riddlesworth]

literally talking about the concept that heavy is base 2, vs the rest being base 1. exactly like the bolters. I don't get why you'd work from a point other than that at that point when discussing it.

 

 

That information came out today and you referenced posts BBF made before today so how could he start from that point?

[Blindhamster]

 

literally talking about the concept that heavy is base 2, vs the rest being base 1. exactly like the bolters. I don't get why you'd work from a point other than that at that point when discussing it.

 

That information came out today and you referenced posts BBF made before today so how could he start from that point?

 

It was posted in this thread 36 hours ago. Before the posts i was responding to.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Huzzah !

[Riddlesworth]

OK. I'm bowing out of that one. The comparisons were valid until the new hellblaster stats got leaked.

 

FWIW, D2 heavy hellblasters have some play i think. If you were using las fusil eliminators to add some anti tank punch, heavy hellblasters can be a suitable replacement. Still need baby sitting if you're not dark angels or ultramarines but have some game at their price, mainly because they're more slot efficient than the units that can't combat squad.

 

Assault blasters are.....weird still. I like 3 shots, but overcharging doesn't break a wound bracket, so you're doing it for the damage boost. Id be very interested to see the mathhammer on 3 S7 D2 vs 2 S8 D2

[Mandragola]

I think this change makes rapid fire hellblasters clearly the worst choice. The rapid fire bolt rifles can be fired twice At 30” if you stand still and have better ap than the assault version, so there are some scenarios where they beat auto rifles. Rapid fire incinerators never beat assault incinerators.

 

The heavies might have some edge case use. Their range is really good on a smaller board. I could see a potential case for my Fists taking a squad and sitting them in a ruin on a home objective. There’s a strat to give them a better save for the whole game if they don’t move and a big unit of these guys could be a potential target for that. Honestly this doesn’t look like the best thing ever, but also not the worst.

 

But now assault hellblasters are really something. They beat Eradicators now, by a long way, against targets with 1-2 wounds. They kill almost twice as many SoBs or equivalent, for example for every point spent, because they’re cheaper as well as having more shots.

 

I also think the opportunity cost is significant. You can get 10 helllblasters for one HS choice but only 3 Eradicators, giving you 30 shots instead of 6 - admittedly at a higher points cost. A squad of 10 hellblasters that you combat squad seems like a decent option to me.

 

Dying has always been a risk with plasma. Its always been worth it. You have a chance that you’ll die, but also a good chance that the enemy will. If you overcharge you might die but if you don’t kill the target you certainly will. Inceptors have been perhaps the only unit to fail this test due to their very high individual cost, high chance of losing each model and the difficulty of getting rerolls to them (except via strats not everyone can access).

 

For assault hellblasters I think the risk will be worth taking. It’ll be easy to have a reroll to hit bubble nearby, and perhaps rerolls to wound as well. You can also stick an ancient there so that if they blow themselves up they can sometimes fire again. Maybe an apothecary will be worth it too. They gain a lot from many chapter tactics and strats too - fall back and shoot, weapons of the dark age, skulking are long range as raven guard, advancing and firing, tank hunters for IF and many others.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Mandragola

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The assault variant is good but the unit is basically a suicide squad if it supercharges.

[9x19 Parabellum]

The assault variant is good but the unit is basically a suicide squad if it supercharges.

 

Yeah you're really flirting with disaster there.  Hope the dice averages are loaded onto one guy and he rolls all the "1"s for the entire unit.

[War Angel]

 

The assault variant is good but the unit is basically a suicide squad if it supercharges.

 

 

Yeah you're really flirting with disaster there.  Hope the dice averages are loaded onto one guy and he rolls all the "1"s for the entire unit.

Well, keep a captain and an ancient nearby. They’ll probably die next turn anyway.

 

 

Sure, you can overcharge them and with perfect hits kill 3 marines per model, but the standard version would wound on twos.

[Zustiur]

plasma really should have become a mortal wound rather than instant death IMO

I agree in principle, but there's a reason it won't happen.

Take the humble plasma cannon, say the dude holding it has 1 wound (whether that's his Statline or his remaining wounds is irrelevant), he fires 3 shots and rolls 3 1s. He dies and so do other models who are not even holding plasma weapons.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It should be the same for all factions.

[CCE1981]

 

plasma really should have become a mortal wound rather than instant death IMO

I agree in principle, but there's a reason it won't happen.

Take the humble plasma cannon, say the dude holding it has 1 wound (whether that's his Statline or his remaining wounds is irrelevant), he fires 3 shots and rolls 3 1s. He dies and so do other models who are not even holding plasma weapons.

So an epic fail results in an epic loss. On a 1 in 216 chance. Ok, note without re-rolls I would NEVER run plasma, a buddy told me how great it was till I finally caved and proxied all my melta’s as plasma. Three games in a row I lost all my plasma toting dudes the first turn they shot. To make matters worse I rolled box cars on leadership from my losses. (4-5 edition)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Plasma like Khorne 

[War Angel]

Ancients.... ancients everywhere.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'd welcome MWs for Plasma. Templars would get a 5+++

[chapter master 454]

I mean...people were doing the whole ancients and captain thing anyway but the point being made is that you need to consider the cost vs. effect. By all accounts the assault can output a high amount of damage but there are multiple parts to this whole combo.

 

One thing people are getting so caught up on is the overcharge. That is certainly useful against tough targets like tanks but when we are talking about 15 plasma rounds going down range, even standard power shots are going to make marines get a bit nervous, getting wounded on 3s and having our save be on 6 now isn't fun. For a 5 man squad of hellblasters, you are talking 5 wounds with good odds of getting a 6th. 3 marines dead without overcharging from a 5 man squad of hellblasters who if they were looking at a totally not the same squad of hellblasters because they are blue with purple trim instead of gold, that would hamstring the return fire.

Granted however, if you overcharge you will have wiped the squad but in that instance we are talking that you killed 10 marines worth...BUT with 15 shots your odds are that you also just merced 2 (with 50/50 odds of a third) of your own guys.

 

Not arguing their damage output but I find it odd we would expend so much resource on a unit we are intentionally going to try and kill and in the new edition, it seems rather short sighted to plan for a unit to kill itself by turn 2 just for possible damage output instead of long term objective holding, denying and also plinking. I wouldn't skim past the idea of just having them gatling out a bunch of plasma each turn. 

[highwind]

With Devastators getting 2W, Multimeltas getting Heavy2 and Plasmacannons probably getting base 2D, I really wonder who will be taking Hellblasters/Eradicators at all...

[solarisqc]

With Devastators getting 2W, Multimeltas getting Heavy2 and Plasmacannons probably getting base 2D, I really wonder who will be taking Hellblasters/Eradicators at all...

Everyone that don't have firstborn marine... it's alot easier to buy a hellblaster box and have 2 squad of 5 hellblaster than it is to have 2 squad of 4 plasma canon dev.

 

Win/win for GW, sell Hellblaster box to new player and sell lots of devastator box if you want the best option available.

[Raktra]

Different uses as well. Eradicators and assault-equipped Hellblasters are far more mobile than Devastators, and Eradicators are tougher vs most anti-marine gear.

[Mandragola]

Plasma cannon devastators will be in an interesting place. If they’re base 2d and d3 shots they’ll be excellent. If they’re 1d Base then they kind of lose out to heavy bolters. We won’t know for a while either way.

 

This whole conversation is happening with a load of missing information. There are other similar units that could seriously alter the viability of hellblasters if various things change. Will suppressors get 3 shots each like the version of their gun on the new turret, which is heavy 6? What will the new heavy intercessors do? Will there be any changes to which units are allowed in which transports?

 

It’s fun to speculate but we can’t know anything definite about these units till we see their full rules and costs. Personally I’m finding the drip feed of these incomplete (and sometimes apparently incorrect) Datasheets pretty frustrating.

[highwind]

Different uses as well. Eradicators and assault-equipped Hellblasters are far more mobile than Devastators, and Eradicators are tougher vs most anti-marine gear.

How are Eradicators "far more mobile"? They are a 5" footslogging unit, unable to ride any reasonable priced transport - they are basically slow as :cuss

Getting them into 12" of a vehicle is far more complicated then just dropping a pod of Devs right next to the target you want dead...

 

Hellblasters arent any tougher, they are the same 2W T4 3+ body that Devastators will be. Eradicators might have a better T but this is majorly offset by small unitsize and the inabilitiy to take any ablative wounds. 12 wounds to a full Devaststor Squad still lets you shoot 8 Melta shots. 12 wounds on 3 Eradicator Squads (which are probably more pointsheavy already) and you are already down to only 3 Melta shots.

 

 

With Devastators getting 2W, Multimeltas getting Heavy2 and Plasmacannons probably getting base 2D, I really wonder who will be taking Hellblasters/Eradicators at all...

Everyone that don't have firstborn marine... it's alot easier to buy a hellblaster box and have 2 squad of 5 hellblaster than it is to have 2 squad of 4 plasma canon dev.

 

Win/win for GW, sell Hellblaster box to new player and sell lots of devastator box if you want the best option available.

No reason to ever buy a Devastator Squad imho... use tactical Marines and equip them with Legion Heavy Weapons which come in packs 5-of-a-kind. Volkite Culvs also make great Gravcannons. Cheap and cheerful.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Marshal Mattias
swear filter dodge

[Blindhamster]

 

Different uses as well. Eradicators and assault-equipped Hellblasters are far more mobile than Devastators, and Eradicators are tougher vs most anti-marine gear.

How are Eradicators "far more mobile"? They are a 5" footslogging unit, unable to ride any reasonable priced transport - they are basically slow as :cuss

Getting them into 12" of a vehicle is far more complicated then just dropping a pod of Devs right next to the target you want dead...

 

Hellblasters arent any tougher, they are the same 2W T4 3+ body that Devastators will be. Eradicators might have a better T but this is majorly offset by small unitsize and the inabilitiy to take any ablative wounds. 12 wounds to a full Devaststor Squad still lets you shoot 8 Melta shots. 12 wounds on 3 Eradicator Squads (which are probably more pointsheavy already) and you are already down to only 3 Melta shots.

 

 

With Devastators getting 2W, Multimeltas getting Heavy2 and Plasmacannons probably getting base 2D, I really wonder who will be taking Hellblasters/Eradicators at all...

Everyone that don't have firstborn marine... it's alot easier to buy a hellblaster box and have 2 squad of 5 hellblaster than it is to have 2 squad of 4 plasma canon dev.

 

Win/win for GW, sell Hellblaster box to new player and sell lots of devastator box if you want the best option available.

No reason to ever buy a Devastator Squad imho... use tactical Marines and equip them with Legion Heavy Weapons which come in packs 5-of-a-kind. Volkite Culvs also make great Gravcannons. Cheap and cheerful.

 

I guess the logic is - devastators are at -1 to hit if they move, Eradicators are not. Ergo, more mobile. The devastators can use a drop pod and be perfectly placed, but are still at -1 to hit when they do. Devastators will likely be 18ppm + heavy weapon cost so assuming multi melta for a fairly direct comparison to eradicators, they're 2 points cheaper per model.

two squads of eradicators is 240 points, which is 12 x 24" metla shots with 18 toughness 5 wounds.

252 points will get you one 9 man squad of devastators with 4 multi melta and a combi melta which is 9 melta shots, 8 within 24 and one within 12. and 18 toughness 4 wounds.

 

The eradicators will reduce in effectiveness more quickly than the devastators, but the devastators are definitely more vulnerable due to the lower toughness, the devastatos can lose 8 wound before their damage potential really drops, the eradicators after losing 8 wounds are  now one shot behind the devastators and will remain that way from there on assuming both squads drop a 2 shot model a turn from there.

 

Honestly I think those two units seem pretty balanced, eradicators are tougher for their points, more initially dangerous for their points and more mobile for their points (you could drop marines from devastators to give them a drop pod, but then the eradicators will remain offensively better for longer than the devastators). But the devastators (as a 10 man squad) will retain their slightly lower damage potential longer than the eradicators. Again though, the devastatos have the versatility to take other weapons which is excellent.

 

 

 

Plasma devastators compared to Hellblasters is harder to determine the details of as we dont know what a plasma canon will do yet, but I have a feeling the plasma canon devastator squad with a combi plasma will be FAR more points efficient, and likely do more damage than hellblasters as well, hellblasters being 33ppm is a big deal, it puts them as the same cost as a plasma canon devastator marine.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Marshal Mattias
quoted swear dodge

[Raktra]

 

Different uses as well. Eradicators and assault-equipped Hellblasters are far more mobile than Devastators, and Eradicators are tougher vs most anti-marine gear.

How are Eradicators "far more mobile"? They are a 5" footslogging unit, unable to ride any reasonable priced transport - they are basically slow as :cuss

Getting them into 12" of a vehicle is far more complicated then just dropping a pod of Devs right next to the target you want dead...

 

Hellblasters arent any tougher, they are the same 2W T4 3+ body that Devastators will be. Eradicators might have a better T but this is majorly offset by small unitsize and the inabilitiy to take any ablative wounds. 12 wounds to a full Devaststor Squad still lets you shoot 8 Melta shots. 12 wounds on 3 Eradicator Squads (which are probably more pointsheavy already) and you are already down to only 3 Melta shots.

 

 

With Devastators getting 2W, Multimeltas getting Heavy2 and Plasmacannons probably getting base 2D, I really wonder who will be taking Hellblasters/Eradicators at all...

Everyone that don't have firstborn marine... it's alot easier to buy a hellblaster box and have 2 squad of 5 hellblaster than it is to have 2 squad of 4 plasma canon dev.

 

Win/win for GW, sell Hellblaster box to new player and sell lots of devastator box if you want the best option available.

No reason to ever buy a Devastator Squad imho... use tactical Marines and equip them with Legion Heavy Weapons which come in packs 5-of-a-kind. Volkite Culvs also make great Gravcannons. Cheap and cheerful.

Move 5” with no penalty, or move 5+d6” with the same penalty = more mobile. And I said Eradicators were more durable, pay attention.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Marshal Mattias
quoted swear dodge

[9x19 Parabellum]

While I certainly appreciate all the discussion that includes Devastators, it's moot for the point of this topic; I bought a kit of hellblasters, and hellblasters are what I'm making!  The only question was which gun, and that has essentially been answered (the heavy version). 

 

But I do like the idea of converting another kit of intercessors once they are back in stock as a Devastator squadron, and I will probably do that, but I think I might make missile-carrying devastators.

[bigtrouble]

I went to warhammer stats engine and entered the new stats in. Against PEQs (2W, T4, 3+ Sv), the assault version has a higher mean damage at 1.33, but the heavy has a higher probability of killing a model even though it has a lower mean damage at 1.11. The reason heavy has a higher kill probability at 55.6% vs 41.7% for the assault is simply because the heavy has 2 damage. The rapid fire at 2 shots is absolutely the worst, with 0.89 mean damage and a 19.8% kill percentage.

 

If the target were a 1W MEQ, assault is the best at 82.9% followed by rapid fire at 69.1%, then heavy at 55.6%, given that heavy only has 1 shot.

 

Since the overcharged rapid fire is the same as the base heavy profile, it stands to reason on the surface level that the only reason to take rapid fire is in order to have flexibility vs. 1W low toughness armies that have some larger threats. It has its place, but it is a very sub-optimal compromise.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hellblasters are so underrated imo .