Hellblaster loadout for 9e

[Alcyon]

I've been running 5 Assault Hellblasters in a crusade campaign and they've been awesome - even with only two shots each at 24". When they're three shots they'll be insane, and I'm planning to build the other half of the box with the Heavy variant if the overcharged statline is S9 D3. I think both of those squads are awesome. 24" is a lot of range and with RG tactics they can often kill the thing that would threaten them before they got shot back, plus they always have cover. At 1500pt games on the larger 44x60 table size I'm planning on putting the Assault boys in a Shield Dome Impulsor.

[bigtrouble]

Hellblasters are so underrated imo .

Yeah, I can see it in this data set. An overcharged assault incinerator and an overcharged heavy have about the same probability of killing a Crisis Suit/Heavy Intercessor, 41.7% vs 44.4%.

 

Compare that to the probability of a heavy intercessor killing a hellblaster in rapid fire range: 4.9%. Or if they take the assault variant: 5.9%.

 

Even with the executor at 29.6% AND you add in the 16.7% chance a heavy hellblaster fries himself, they are basically an even match.

 

The damage output between assault and heavy is essentially equivalent. With the new profiles, the choice is only a matter of range and available support. Heavy has higher variance due to lack of shots. Assault obviously need more re-roll support. I wouldn’t overcharge on the move with the assault version unless forced to. That -1 to hit takes off a good chunk of the lethality, making them essentially one third less effective, and totally not worth the loss of half your unit.

 

Rapid fire are garbage against multi-wound infantry. They may have a niche place against sisters and/or eldar because they can engage transports at range, not really sure.

 

https://warhammer-stats-engine.herokuapp.com/static?e_0=enabled&fn_0=7&inv_0=7&pts_0=1&sv_0=3&tn_0=Profile+0&t_0=5&w_0=3&ap_0_0=4&dm_0_0=2&dmm_0_0=&fnpm_0_0=&hm_0_0=&svm_0_0=&shm_0_0=&sh_0_0=3&s_0_0=7&we_0_0=enabled&wm_0_0=&ws_0_0=3&e_1=enabled&fn_1=7&inv_1=7&pts_1=1&sv_1=3&tn_1=Profile+1&t_1=5&w_1=3&ap_1_0=4&dm_1_0=2&dmm_1_0=&fnpm_1_0=&hm_1_0=&svm_1_0=&shm_1_0=&sh_1_0=1&s_1_0=8&we_1_0=enabled&wm_1_0=&ws_1_0=3&e_2=enabled&fn_2=7&inv_2=7&pts_2=1&sv_2=3&tn_2=Profile+2&t_2=5&w_2=3&ap_2_0=4&dm_2_0=3&dmm_2_0=&fnpm_2_0=&hm_2_0=&svm_2_0=&shm_2_0=&sh_2_0=1&s_2_0=9&we_2_0=enabled&wm_2_0=&ws_2_0=3&e_3=enabled&fn_3=7&inv_3=7&pts_3=1&sv_3=3&tn_3=Profile+3&t_3=4&w_3=2&ap_3_0=2&dm_3_0=2&dmm_3_0=&fnpm_3_0=&hm_3_0=&svm_3_0=&shm_3_0=&sh_3_0=1&s_3_0=5&we_3_0=enabled&wm_3_0=&ws_3_0=3&e_4=enabled&fn_4=7&inv_4=7&pts_4=1&sv_4=3&tn_4=Profile+4&t_4=4&w_4=2&ap_4_0=1&dm_4_0=1&dmm_4_0=&fnpm_4_0=&hm_4_0=&svm_4_0=&shm_4_0=&sh_4_0=2&s_4_0=5&we_4_0=enabled&wm_4_0=&ws_4_0=3&e_5=enabled&fn_5=7&inv_5=7&pts_5=1&sv_5=3&tn_5=Profile+5&t_5=4&w_5=2&ap_5_0=0&dm_5_0=1&dmm_5_0=&fnpm_5_0=&hm_5_0=&svm_5_0=&shm_5_0=&sh_5_0=3&s_5_0=5&we_5_0=enabled&wm_5_0=&ws_5_0=3&title=

[Captain Idaho]

I would point out Rapid Fire (standard) is very effective at culling 2 wound infantry due to wounding on and a 2+ when overcharged.

 

I also believe the Heavy Plasma Incinerator has a great benefit of going to S9 when Overcharged, making it a mini-Lascannon, thus giving utility to hurt vehicles from a distance, as well as hard counter to Gravis armoured units and Terminators.

[Alcyon]

I don’t think the improvement of wounding on a 2+ compensates for one less shot per model. I think the Assault version is almost strictly better than the Rapid Fire because of that additional shot, just like with the Intercessor guns - plus, in a pinch, you have the option to advance and shoot.

 

The Heavy version does seem quite good too at S9 D3, that’s better than a Lascannon IMO since you can field a unit with more shots than Devastators and 3 damage is better than the variance of D6.

 

Now we just need to know whether Hellblasters are Core.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Hellblasters are so underrated imo .

I think it mainly has to do with the competitive mind set. Hellblasters aren't a top tier unit, the unit has alot of variance (because they can blow themselves up), and grav in a pod is better right now. That's enough for a lot of players to put them in the bad category.

 

Personally I think they're fair and more importantly fun, so they shouldn't be nerfed by becoming a non core unit. Granted this is coming from the guy who killed his primaris captain 3 times by rolling double ones :).

Edited September 23, 2020 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Riddlesworth]

I don’t think the improvement of wounding on a 2+ compensates for one less shot per model. I think the Assault version is almost strictly better than the Rapid Fire because of that additional shot, just like with the Intercessor guns - plus, in a pinch, you have the option to advance and shoot.

 

The Heavy version does seem quite good too at S9 D3, that’s better than a Lascannon IMO since you can field a unit with more shots than Devastators and 3 damage is better than the variance of D6.

 

Now we just need to know whether Hellblasters are Core.

 

assault bolt rifle and rapid fire bolt rifle have the same math outside of tactical doctrine, assault pulls ahead in tactical doctrine by like 0.06 unsaved wounds per gun. With rapid fire needing activating and assault being always on, assault sneaks it but you don't lose *that* much by going rapid fire if its a unit for sitting on home objective, or if you're ultramarines, for example.

 

correct me if i'm wrong, but having just checked wahapeedia, battlescribe and the 40k app, assault plasma is still 2 shots. if the rapid fire version does get to rapid fire, it is significantly better against T4, the same against T5-6, better at T7-8 and the same against T9. so if you have a way to activate rapid fire consistently for your hellblasters (ravenguard strats, strategic reserves, transports), rapid fire is better. if you want to run and gun, assault will be more consistent.

[Blindhamster]

 

I don’t think the improvement of wounding on a 2+ compensates for one less shot per model. I think the Assault version is almost strictly better than the Rapid Fire because of that additional shot, just like with the Intercessor guns - plus, in a pinch, you have the option to advance and shoot.

 

The Heavy version does seem quite good too at S9 D3, that’s better than a Lascannon IMO since you can field a unit with more shots than Devastators and 3 damage is better than the variance of D6.

 

Now we just need to know whether Hellblasters are Core.

 

assault bolt rifle and rapid fire bolt rifle have the same math outside of tactical doctrine, assault pulls ahead in tactical doctrine by like 0.06 unsaved wounds per gun. With rapid fire needing activating and assault being always on, assault sneaks it but you don't lose *that* much by going rapid fire if its a unit for sitting on home objective, or if you're ultramarines, for example.

 

correct me if i'm wrong, but having just checked wahapeedia, battlescribe and the 40k app, assault plasma is still 2 shots. if the rapid fire version does get to rapid fire, it is significantly better against T4, the same against T5-6, better at T7-8 and the same against T9. so if you have a way to activate rapid fire consistently for your hellblasters (ravenguard strats, strategic reserves, transports), rapid fire is better. if you want to run and gun, assault will be more consistent.

 

the datasheet showed them with 3, and heavy with base 2 damage.

[Riddlesworth]

 

 

I don’t think the improvement of wounding on a 2+ compensates for one less shot per model. I think the Assault version is almost strictly better than the Rapid Fire because of that additional shot, just like with the Intercessor guns - plus, in a pinch, you have the option to advance and shoot.

 

The Heavy version does seem quite good too at S9 D3, that’s better than a Lascannon IMO since you can field a unit with more shots than Devastators and 3 damage is better than the variance of D6.

 

Now we just need to know whether Hellblasters are Core.

 

assault bolt rifle and rapid fire bolt rifle have the same math outside of tactical doctrine, assault pulls ahead in tactical doctrine by like 0.06 unsaved wounds per gun. With rapid fire needing activating and assault being always on, assault sneaks it but you don't lose *that* much by going rapid fire if its a unit for sitting on home objective, or if you're ultramarines, for example.

 

correct me if i'm wrong, but having just checked wahapeedia, battlescribe and the 40k app, assault plasma is still 2 shots. if the rapid fire version does get to rapid fire, it is significantly better against T4, the same against T5-6, better at T7-8 and the same against T9. so if you have a way to activate rapid fire consistently for your hellblasters (ravenguard strats, strategic reserves, transports), rapid fire is better. if you want to run and gun, assault will be more consistent.

 

the datasheet showed them with 3, and heavy with base 2 damage.

 

that's what i get for skim reading. assault plasma at 3 should be better than rapid fire apart from T7 and T8. haven't run the math on heavy but 3D feels great

[Captain Idaho]

Assault plasma is very good at killing Elite infantry. What I wasn't clear on was the Rapid Fire version has good utility in hitting heavier targets when not shooting infantry.

 

I wouldn't say Hellblasters with Heavy Plasma Incinerators are better than Devastators with Lascannons as they're different. Lascannons have better range (slightly), don't blow up when you roll a 1 and in a squad of 4 your average damage if they all wound is 14 (4D6) vs Hellblasters with 15 consistently.

 

Different weapons for different roles eh.

[Charlo]

Assault version is pretty gnarly with White Scars too, as they ignore the penalty to shooting and advancing, as well as being able to delivery an absolutely devastating charge in the Assault Doctrine too, with 3A at -1AP & D2...! A really nice all-rounder unit.

 

The only issue I can see with the assault build is overcharging giving you even more of a chance to kill the user, but seeing as it's now unmodified and re-rolls are easy to come by (assuming Hellbasters are indeed CORE) then it will be fine.

[Alcyon]

Assault plasma is very good at killing Elite infantry. What I wasn't clear on was the Rapid Fire version has good utility in hitting heavier targets when not shooting infantry.

 

Look at the Mathhammer even in that case. We'll make it a squad of 5. Two shots each within 15" for Rapid Fire is 6.6 hits and 4.4 wounds for a total of 8.8 wounds on a T7 vehicle with a 3+. The Assault version with three shots each out to 24" gets 10 hits and 5 unsaved wounds for a total damage of 10. If you're shooting at a T8 model, the gap between the weapon types closes to nothing (wounding on a 4+ vs. a 5+ does compensate for fewer shots) but given the Assault variant's performance against all other targets I would take a different unit to shoot at T8.

 

To recap the math vs. t4, you're talking 6.6 hits and 5.5 unsaved wounds vs. Primaris dealing 11 dmg for a total of 5 dead Primaris. Meanwhile the Assault version gets 10 hits and 6.6 unsaved wounds dealing 13, killing 6 Primaris.

 

We see this throughout the game now including with Intercessors - additional shots trump the benefit of wounding on a 2+ or 3+ so the only benefit the Rapid Fire version has is its ability to fire a single shot per model at 30". Personally I don't think that's worth it - if you have a squad that needs 36" range to waste a turn firing a weak gun, you're just better off putting them in a vehicle or strategic reserves to get within 24" and have a much larger impact.

 

I wouldn't say Hellblasters with Heavy Plasma Incinerators are better than Devastators with Lascannons as they're different. Lascannons have better range (slightly), don't blow up when you roll a 1 and in a squad of 4 your average damage if they all wound is 14 (4D6) vs Hellblasters with 15 consistently.

 

Similarly here the Lascannons only get in 2.6 hits and 1.5 unsaved wounds for a total damage of 5.1 against a T7 vehicle with a 3+, whereas the overcharged Heavy Hellblasters (assuming they get S9 D3) get 3.3 hits off 5 shots, causing 2.2 unsaved wounds because of their higher AP and dealing 6.6 damage (1.5 more.) So the only benefits to Lascannons are no overcharge risk, lower cost per model (we'll see when Devastators get an extra wound) and another 12" of range in an edition where there's so much terrain I think the chances of having an unobstructed sightline to a vehicle is pretty low.

 

I also think the almost guaranteed presence of a Captain or Dreadnought (Wisdom of the Ancients) re-roll 1 aura reduces the overcharge risk a ton though I suppose there is the argument that you could run a Chapter Master with the Lascannons and probably wouldn't want to with the Hellblasters. But even with that, the CM only raises the Lascannons' damage to 6.9 whereas the Captain raises the Hellblasters' damage to 7.7. So it just narrows the gap instead of bridging it.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Alcyon

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not sure on the maths, since it's not my specialty.

 

But I know you can't do 2.6 hits. The game doesn't operate like that. Too abstract and impractical. It's not for me.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[War Angel]

Feel like your forgetting to add in the overcharge risk to the weapon. For that extra kill, you’ve increased the chance of your own men siting by 50%. Overcharging 15 shots will kill 2.5 of your own men on the first turn. 1.5 on the second. 1 on the third, and a 50% chance of the lone shooter killing himself on the end.

 

 

For my math, I didn’t count the .5 as it is impossible to kill half a model with overcharging plasma on infantry.

[Alcyon]

I'm not sure on the maths, since it's not my specialty.

 

But I know you can't do 2.6 hits. The game doesn't operate like that. Too abstract and impractical. It's not for me.

 

These aren't guarantees or anything, they're averages which are intended to let us weigh things against each other. If it helps you can raise the squad sizes high enough to get whole numbers, but the point is that one weapon is better than the other from a statistical point of view. The game does in fact operate on probabilities and though I understand if it seems abstract, the reality is that more shots is better in most cases than an increase in one other to-hit or to-wound roll. Another way to think about it might be that Rapid Fire Hellblasters will not kill a Rhino on average, but Assault Hellblasters will - that I think is a big help in deciding what units to run and what units to fire at what during a game.

 

Feel like your forgetting to add in the overcharge risk to the weapon. For that extra kill, you’ve increased the chance of your own men siting by 50%. Overcharging 15 shots will kill 2.5 of your own men on the first turn. 1.5 on the second. 1 on the third, and a 50% chance of the lone shooter killing himself on the end.

 

 

For my math, I didn’t count the .5 as it is impossible to kill half a model with overcharging plasma on infantry.

 

I wouldn't run Hellblasters without a Captain or Dreadnought nearby for re-rolls, but it's true that the risk of overcharging is everpresent. I left the re-roll 1s out of the above math since a 1/6 increase in to-hit raises all boats, but if you have one then the risk of two shots killing a model goes from 31% to 5%, and the risk of three shots goes from 42% to 8% per model. So in a squad of 10 in one round of shooting you can expect almost one model to die on average, or about half that risk for a 5-man squad. That's negligible in my view though it does increase the points cost of Hellblasters when you factor in the necessity of an aura.

[bigtrouble]

the only benefit the Rapid Fire version has is its ability to fire a single shot per model at 30".

I think this sums it up nicely. Go assault if you plan on moving them up, go heavy if you want to keep them back line and don’t want to take extra anti-armor. Leave the rapid fire at home. Either way, bring a re-roll 1s along.

[War Angel]

Didn’t think the captains rerolls reduced the risk that much the way the dice like to reroll back into ones. Lol

 

 

the only benefit the Rapid Fire version has is its ability to fire a single shot per model at 30".

I think this sums it up nicely. Go assault if you plan on moving them up, go heavy if you want to keep them back line and don’t want to take extra anti-armor. Leave the rapid fire at home. Either way, bring a re-roll 1s along.

Rapid fire gets one shot turn one as you close the distance, two shots turn two, dies to enemy fire because they can’t let them live. 3 shots all game. The heavy option would have gotten two, and the assault option would get 3 as well, due to not being in range on turn one (assuming the board was in a format that supports this) so the rapid fire has a potential to have a better spread of damage in some games.

 

It does seem that due to the rapid fire and assault versions sharing the same damage profile that there isn’t enough difference between the two. The heavy option has less max shots, but higher strength range AND damage than the other options, while the rapid fire is less max shots and only has a benefit of strength and range. Bolt rifles and heavy bolt rifles also have this set up if im not mistaken.

[Alcyon]

Lol, I know what you mean! 

 

Given that the minimum board size is now 44x60, most missions have deep deployment zones and there's an intense objective focus, I think it'll be quite rare to be more than 24" from your opponent on turn 1 unless one or both of you have purposely castled up. I also think we're often going to see Hellblasters deployed in Impulsors, in Strategic Reserves or using some other deployment shenanigans (Raven Guard, etc.) to protect them turn 1 and ensure shots, and those methods all get models easily within 24".

 

I agree it seems like the Rapid Fire and Assault variants are a little too close together but I'm not quite sure how to reconcile that otherwise. I think having three weapon options for the same squad is pretty limiting in terms of design room so that's sort of on GW.

[War Angel]

Lol, I know what you mean! 

 

Given that the minimum board size is now 44x60, most missions have deep deployment zones and there's an intense objective focus, I think it'll be quite rare to be more than 24" from your opponent on turn 1 unless one or both of you have purposely castled up. I also think we're often going to see Hellblasters deployed in Impulsors, in Strategic Reserves or using some other deployment shenanigans (Raven Guard, etc.) to protect them turn 1 and ensure shots, and those methods all get models easily within 24".

 

I agree it seems like the Rapid Fire and Assault variants are a little too close together but I'm not quite sure how to reconcile that otherwise. I think having three weapon options for the same squad is pretty limiting in terms of design room so that's sort of on GW.

Well..... not giving it an overcharge damage boost is an option.... would make it a weaker weapon but it would give it a different purpose over its brothers. Maybe if it was overcharged for str 8 D1, then it would be doing one damage on a 2+ against T4 targets. So it’s better at killing T4 1 wound models because of volume of shots, and not loosing damage from over killing. It just seems that there needs to be a difference between the weapons.

[Captain Idaho]

 

I'm not sure on the maths, since it's not my specialty.

But I know you can't do 2.6 hits. The game doesn't operate like that. Too abstract and impractical. It's not for me.

 

 

These aren't guarantees or anything, they're averages which are intended to let us weigh things against each other. If it helps you can raise the squad sizes high enough to get whole numbers, but the point is that one weapon is better than the other from a statistical point of view. The game does in fact operate on probabilities and though I understand if it seems abstract, the reality is that more shots is better in most cases than an increase in one other to-hit or to-wound roll. Another way to think about it might be that Rapid Fire Hellblasters will not kill a Rhino on average, but Assault Hellblasters will - that I think is a big help in deciding what units to run and what units to fire at what during a game.

 

Indeed. I have a solid understanding of the game but I don't use Mathammer. The extra shots for the Assault variant certainly looks better anyway.

 

Well, except I quite like the Heavy Plasma Incinerator over it, especially in light of the D3 option.

 

I still contend the weapon system is not superior to Lascannons. A natural S9 is very good on 2 wound models that otherwise blow up on a 1. With the limitations on getting rerolls and castles just not being as effective in 9th edition, Heavy Plasma Incinerator Hellblasters (try saying that quickly) are a risk. As you say as well, Devastators with Lascannons are cheaper too, though that is all in the air with the new Codex. The range is relevant as although models can be hidden, Knights can't, there will be fire lanes opening up and flyers can't hide either.

 

Plus, using your Maths, Lascannons are only marginally behind the average for Hellblasters with no risk. They do a lot better when you apply real world practicalities to it - most games an opponent won't take 16% of the damage off each shot. They'll roll a 6 for their 3+ save or won't.

 

So most of the time it'll only happen 1 turn a game for this squad, on average. The rest of the time the Lascannons are sailing through armour. In the Heavy Doctrine they are AP-4 as well, though that's only turn 1.

 

Really, my position is to take Hellblasters with Heavy Plasma Incinerators to damage vehicles and kill heavy infantry, with the latter being the priority.

 

Take Lascannons to kill vehicles but only rely on them in decent numbers. Otherwise they should be expected to act as a contributing factor to overall army performance.

 

In summary, I have come round to your opinion that the Assault variant is very good and the Rapid Fire variant might lag behind many targets, though I still contend there are times where S8 is going to be much more useful than S7. Still, Hellblasters don't want to be firing at T8 as a priority of course, so that could be a moot point.

[Karhedron]

Provided you have a dedicated antitank elsewhere, I think Assault Hellblasters are the way to go. Use them to take out heavy infantry and light vehicles while you real AT focuses on anything T7/8.

[9x19 Parabellum]

One way they could differentiate Rapid Fire Hellblasters is make them take a mortal wound on a "1" instead of "model is slain" on a "1".   That could justify their overall less power-intensive design.

[Riddlesworth]

I think the differentiation will help hellblasters hit the table. I don't look past inceptors right now for hot burning plasma love. 3D heavies might change that.

[Karhedron]

I also love my Inceptors to bring the burn but I am nervous that they might not be CORE in 9th. Without the ability to reroll 1s, Plasmaceptors would be basically DOA.

[Captain Idaho]

If Terminators and bikes are core, surely all infantry variants will be?

 

Though that could be to keep White Scars and Dark Angels players happy, as well as to boost Terminators relatively.

[emperorpants]

Provided they are core, I really like the heavy variant to kill Gravis, custodes, terminators, etc.