Squad iconography and colours for primaris question

[atropos_priest]

Hail brothers!
 

I'm trying to decide how to paint my assault intercessors. I've heard arguments that, as troops, they should be 'battleline' designation (couldn't find the new picture from an accepted URL... so, Initiate colours below).

 

My first thought was that they serve as close support (Assault squad), and so the red-rimmed pad.

Bladeguard vets seem to be good candidates for veteran markings and colours (sword brethren).

 

Outriders would be close support (Assault squad)?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by atropos_priest

[redmapa]

Personally regarding troops I think they should all be painted in Initiate colors and the Phobos units may be painted with the Scout colors as they may not be Neophytes per se but their role is similar to Scouts so to me it makes sense.

[Dusktiger]

that's a good question, because even using standard codex astartes symbols, despite saying the unit is a troop slot, they clearly have assault squad markings on their pads for both the new intercessors.

 

If leaving the trim white for now until the book releases in october is out of the question, I would paint the assault intercessors with the red trim. 

 

I also agree with you that, without question, the bladeguard veterans should be painted as sword brethren.

[atropos_priest]

I'm leaning towards them being initiates, ala the 2005 codex. Bolter and chainsword dudes in that have the classic initiate scheme. Assault marines (jump pack troops) had the red trim.

 

It does make me question the Outriders now, though...

[Urkh]

My thought is that they're basically just primaris initiates that are equipped with a chainsword and pistol, and they have the black trim, and always have. I'd go with red trim on the outsiders myself. They have a means of going fast, and I also painted my landspeeder pilot/gunners shoulders with red trim as well. All up to you though.

[BluejayJunior]

For a lot of the primaris stuff, the force org slot doesn't match with the battlefield role. Don't look at what force org slot they fill, look at their codex role. Assault Incecessors (as well as Incursors) are close support squads as far as the codex. Of course, you are certainly free to paint them however you feel they fit into your chapter/plaint scheme. The Black Templars don't usually care much about the Codex Astartes. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I have written on the topic extensively elsewhere. While at the end of the day, either option is fine. To my mind assault intercessors are just basic Crusaders for our chapter. So black trim.

If they ever got a jump pack option, those would get red trim.

The key difference between the assault squad and crusader squad in the fluff around 3rd and 4th (which is still all we have?!) Was the presence of Neophytes in the squad. Assault squads were without Neophytes because they fought in places too dangerous for them to follow. (The jump packs didn't help either!)

Although the rules prevent us from taking neophytes in Primaris squads, I think in fluff terms they would be there.

[CastellanDeMolay]

Ok, so I've been thinking about colour schemes and there are a couple of ideas I'm having upon which I wanted second opinions: red trims on Assault Intercessors and red helmets on Sergeants. 

 

As part of the Indomitus Crusade, these Initiates would have fought alongside members of other chapters in mixed squads, and more than likely in combined armies later on, so it would make sense for them to make some concessions to the necessity for allies to readily identify their rank and battlefield role. They would also, probably, have learned to wage war according to the Codex Astartes before becoming familiar with the Templar way of war. I dislike the Sword-Brethren-as-sergeant thing GW do with their studio army. My understanding is that the Sword Brethren are a an elitist clique of hand-picked battle brothers who do not mingle with the rest of the crusade in a way that would engender the bonds of familiarity and camaraderie around which Crusader Squads are formed.

 

In the absence of an official [non-SB] Sergeant colour scheme for Black Templars I was thinking red helmets, borrowed from the Ultramarines, would work, as it maintains the existing colour palette for the army, without the Sergeant looking like he should belong to an entirely different Squad. Alternatively I'm considering just leaving it at the skull on the helmet to designate the Sergeant. About those shoulder pad trims; Assault Intercessor Squads are not, strictly speaking, a type of Crusader Squad. Yes, they're in the Troops Slot, and they have [Astartes] Chainswords, but the current lore has it that most Primaris Space Marines at the time of the Indomitus Crusade are Greyshields who have been assigned to a chapter of their lineage, they probably didn't know what a Crusader Squad was until they were assigned to a Marshall and formed into a Crusade. 

 

I'm honestly a little torn on this, as part of me says to just paint them up like they were a Crusader Squad and make-believe, but I like things to be reasonably lore friendly, and I think my ideas above make a lot of sense in-universe. (even if one of them differs from GW's studio colour scheme, but hey, Mat Hutson put white helmets on his Vanguard Veterans, so I think I'm okay to put red helmets on Sergeants) 

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Another option for sergeants' helmets would be to paint them white, back in the day (4th ed) terminators used to have white heads in the codex, iirc.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I have white helmets on various models in my army, including one Crusader Squad from the Armageddon days who all have them. (I think it was a Matt Hudson thing.)

[clanfield]

the terminators in faith and fury also have white helmets

 

 

for squad sargents i painted red inserts black badge for the primaris boyos

[atropos_priest]

So I guess this answers the question. Assault intercessors are red-rimmed with a sword brethren leading, and crusaders are black rimmed...

Edited October 8, 2021 by atropos_priest

[Marshal Reinhard]

This was always the answer. I for one have no intention of fielding my assault intercessors as anything but as crusaders part of a crusader squad though

[BitsHammer]

This was always the answer. I for one have no intention of fielding my assault intercessors as anything but as crusaders part of a crusader squad though

Wait, we have troop options outside of Crusader squads?

[Iron Lord]

The way the current SM codex is written, Black Templars are allowed to take everything regular Chapters can take (except psykers) and can take Crusader Squads on top of that.

 

So, if you wanted "ordinary bolter marine" squads, yes, you could take them. You can take regular Scouts, too - you aren't limited to taking Neophytes in your Crusader Squads.

 

 

Regarding "Sword Brethren as Sergeants" - I think GW sees Sword Brethren as very much the Black Templars equivalent of Wolf Guard - so they tend to be both formed into elite squads, and separated out to be leaders of regular troop squads, leading by example.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Iron Lord

[Marshal Reinhard]

The way the current SM codex is written, Black Templars are allowed to take everything regular Chapters can take (except psykers) and can take Crusader Squads on top of that.

 

So, if you wanted "ordinary bolter marine" squads, yes, you could take them. You can take regular Scouts, too - you aren't limited to taking Neophytes in your Crusader Squads.

Yes, this is exactly right. We should remember that what we're getting isn't a CODEX, it's a codex SUPPLEMENT. We still need the current marine codex, but this also means we're allowed to take everything in it (Except filthy witches, *spit*)

 

Jokes aside on the "we only have one troop choice", since it seems crusader squads can only take the auto bolt rifle variant, we're forced to field our, say, marine models from Dark Imperium (that only came with the standard bolt rifle variant) as intercessors. Lorewise they're still initiates in a Crusader squad, but crunch wise they'd be using the intercessor data sheet. I actually got a few leftover autobolter mags in my bitzbox, so I think I might just alter a few bolt rifles I've done in the past...

Regarding "Sword Brethren as Sergeants" - I think GW sees Sword Brethren as very much the Black Templars equivalent of Wolf Guard - so they tend to be both formed into elite squads, and separated out to be leaders of regular troop squads, leading by example.

A discussion I feel like it's very much worth to have now. Given the absolutely sexy blingee status of our new swordbrethren overlords, (the one who comes in the crusader squad seems like he'd fit perfectly with the ones that are in specific swordbrethren kit), and most marine squads sergeants seem to have veteran-ish status... are all squads sergeants de facto sword brethren? Should we use one of sexy blingee overlords for every instance? Like for my hell blasters too? Going overboard?

Edited October 8, 2021 by Reinhard

[BitsHammer]

The way the current SM codex is written, Black Templars are allowed to take everything regular Chapters can take (except psykers) and can take Crusader Squads on top of that.

 

So, if you wanted "ordinary bolter marine" squads, yes, you could take them. You can take regular Scouts, too - you aren't limited to taking Neophytes in your Crusader Squads.

 

 

Regarding "Sword Brethren as Sergeants" - I think GW sees Sword Brethren as very much the Black Templars equivalent of Wolf Guard - so they tend to be both formed into elite squads, and separated out to be leaders of regular troop squads, leading by example.

It was a joke in the vein of "why would we take anything else?"

[T14]

All my BTs will have the initiate color scheme, regardless of rank. Old fluff dictates that the BT color scheme mirrors that of Sigismund during the siege of Terra. That is the hill I am choosing to die on   I might retain the red-and-black of the official SB as a tilt shield color scheme. And higher rank equals more gold trim, ofc.

[atropos_priest]

I am assuming that the reason to take assault intercessors will be the fight again strat, which I assume crusaders won't get.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Maybe they're going to hark back to the lore behind why Assault Squads were separate from crusade squads and it be because they fought in too dangerous places on the battlefield to train neophytes. That means the Assault Intercessors are their inheritors, no neophytes and the red trim of the suicide squad.

[Gederas]

Maybe they're going to hark back to the lore behind why Assault Squads were separate from crusade squads and it be because they fought in too dangerous places on the battlefield to train neophytes. That means the Assault Intercessors are their inheritors, no neophytes and the red trim of the suicide squad.

I did not know that lore. I like it and makes a whole lot of sense actually :yes:

 

I'll definitely be keeping that bit for my Crusade

 

[Brother Carpenter]

In the 3ed supplement and 4ed dex

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Lorewise they're still initiates in a Crusader squad, but crunch wise they'd be using the intercessor data sheet.

 

 

Not necessarily. There are Imperial Fist Greyshields adopted into the Black Templars, these are Codex Astartes trained troops with little familiarity with Chapter culture and would not be given Neophytes to train in their foreign ways.

[Kastor Krieg]

 

 

Lorewise they're still initiates in a Crusader squad, but crunch wise they'd be using the intercessor data sheet.

 

 

Not necessarily. There are Imperial Fist Greyshields adopted into the Black Templars, these are Codex Astartes trained troops with little familiarity with Chapter culture and would not be given Neophytes to train in their foreign ways.

As we can see in Dark Imperium: Plague War, Greyshields trained in one regime (Ultramarine) get hypnoindoctrinated and completely immersed into the new culture of the target Chapter (Novamarines). They would not have "foreign ways", they would understand the Templar way through and through.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

 

 

Lorewise they're still initiates in a Crusader squad, but crunch wise they'd be using the intercessor data sheet.

 

 

Not necessarily. There are Imperial Fist Greyshields adopted into the Black Templars, these are Codex Astartes trained troops with little familiarity with Chapter culture and would not be given Neophytes to train in their foreign ways.

As we can see in Dark Imperium: Plague War, Greyshields trained in one regime (Ultramarine) get hypnoindoctrinated and completely immersed into the new culture of the target Chapter (Novamarines). They would not have "foreign ways", they would understand the Templar way through and through.

This also assumes that those marines were greyshields, they could be firstborn who crossed the Rubicon, or neophytes who were trained in the traditional way.