Hellblaster Changes

[G8Keeper]

Well, there's a thread up in the N&R forum (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366030-new-hellblasters-datasheet/).  Hellblasters have some changes, have a gander and come back to discuss, quick post so no time to share the image directly here I'm afraid, suffice to say, all 3 are options now.

Edited August 20, 2020 by G8Keeper

[Aeri]

A good change actually, as 8t seems to give every option an actual use. Can't decide what is best.

[G8Keeper]

I have 10 rapid fire painted up, I think my next job after Indomitus is to get at least 5 heavy done.

[Aeri]

I actually proxy any of them as I think they all look the same :D

[Angel of Solitude]

Assuming we still keep WftDA, Hellblasters are going to be great units for us. 

 

Turn 1, we'll have 42" range, S9 AP-5 D4 weapons available to us via the Heavy option (assuming overcharge works the same way). 

Turn 2/3, using Strategic Reserves we'll be able to bring on a unit of assault Hellblasters that will just delete Space Marines with their 24" range, S6 AP-5 D2 weapons.

 

I'm looking forward to trying out what works well. 

[G8Keeper]

I actually proxy any of them as I think they all look the same :D

Good point. I have 5 left over from a box though, so may as well. Now I kinda want assault ones with their 3 shots... Gah!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Really torn between all 3 choices... Maybe one squad of each.

[UtariOnzo]

I have a 10 man box yet to assemble. Very much torn with which ones to go with!

[WrathOfTheLion]

I have some unassembled as well. I guess I will do some different ones

[CCE1981]

10 Hellblasters with Assault Plasma Incinerators inside a Repulsor have a 30 shot, 33 - 39" threat range, at str 6 for d1 or str 7 for 2 damage (with Dark Angels WftDA +1 damage), yeah that is a potential 60 damage (90 with WftDA) unit at a mere 330 pts right now.  Adding in just a smidgen of extra to that add in a Captain to re-roll those ones, and a Chaplain for +1 to hit and/or wound.  Yeah you can do some pretty major damage with them.

[Grand Master Raziel]

Assuming we still keep WftDA, Hellblasters are going to be great units for us. 

 

Turn 1, we'll have 42" range, S9 AP-5 D4 weapons available to us via the Heavy option (assuming overcharge works the same way). 

Turn 2/3, using Strategic Reserves we'll be able to bring on a unit of assault Hellblasters that will just delete Space Marines with their 24" range, S6 AP-5 D2 weapons.

 

I'm looking forward to trying out what works well. 

 

I don't know why one wouldn't just use the standard plasma incinerators. If you're coming in from Strategic Reserves, placing the unit within 15" of your primary target shouldn't be a problem, and you have a higher strength to deal with tougher targets if you need to.

 

I could definitely see using the heavy plasma incinerators now. Guaranteed 4 damage per wound that gets through? On average that's going to be better than a lascannon Devastator. Probably cheaper too. Be hitting on 2's with our Chapter Tactic, looks like. We'll want a Master nearby for the rerolls though.

[JJD]

Has anyone math hammered it out.

 

M initial reaction is that S6 with 3 shots at 24 is better than S7 and 2 shots at 15 or 30 without moving.

 

But if you factor in over charging S8 Is a big difference as now you are wounding Meqs on 3 rather than 4s. Does that make up for less shots

[jaxom]

Assuming we still keep WftDA, Hellblasters are going to be great units for us. 

 

Turn 1, we'll have 42" range, S9 AP-5 D4 weapons available to us via the Heavy option (assuming overcharge works the same way). 

 

It gives us an actual Primaris infantry anti-tank unit. Hitting on 2s, wounding most things on 3s, get a Lieutenant there for the re-roll and that is a very dangerous unit.

 

10 Hellblasters with Assault Plasma Incinerators inside a Repulsor have a 30 shot, 33 - 39" threat range, at str 6 for d1 or str 7 for 2 damage (with Dark Angels WftDA +1 damage), yeah that is a potential 60 damage (90 with WftDA) unit at a mere 330 pts right now.  Adding in just a smidgen of extra to that add in a Captain to re-roll those ones, and a Chaplain for +1 to hit and/or wound.  Yeah you can do some pretty major damage with them.

 

I think the Chaplain for the +1 to wound is the key. Str 6 will wound most heavy infantry on a 3 and most tanks on a 5. Bring that down to 2 and 4, respectively, even if only doing 1 wound... one moment... *hymn to the Omnissiah, apply holy spanner to the cogitator...*  17 wounds if wounding on 2s and 10 wounds if wounding on 4s.

 

Has anyone math hammered it out.

 

I'll do a full spread later today.

[Grand Master Raziel]

Oh my, oops, look at that. Assault 3 Assault Plasma Incinerators. That puts a different spin on things. I was looking in the codex where they're listed as Assault 2.

Looks like they're having plasma incinerators mirror Intercessor bolt rifles. 3 different types with a long-range high-damage profile, a shorter-ranged high volume assault profile, and a midrange rapid fire profile.

 

You know, Eliminators have 3 different kinds of shots they can fire. There are also 3 different loadouts for the new tank.  That's starting to look like a pattern. I wonder if all Primaris units are going to wind up with 3 loadout options.

[solarisqc]

All weapon now have a specific use.

 

Assault with 3 shot is the king against infantry, wounding on 3+, realy risky to overheat but devastating with up to 60D (90 with WOTDA)

Rapid fire is the middle ground, good agains infantry and tank if overcharge.

Heavy is the king for vehicule  and heavy infantry with strengh 8 and 2 damage, overcharge will wound all vehicule on 3+ and D3, realy good agains heavy infantry like terminator with 3 wound, wounding on 2+. for a kill if overcharge. Only 30D (60 WOFTD) but wounding on 3+ against all vehicules is alot better than the assault version.

 

Until we have the DA supplement, it's hard to know if one type will be realy better than the other, we don't know if we keep WOTDA as it is now or if it will be change to something else. We may have other plasma stratagem and i realy hope our super doctrine change for something else, maybe plasma related.

[jaxom]

Calculations done. The assault plasma incinerators win out in almost all situations including against Knights once WotDA and Catechism of Fire are factored in. The sheer weight of fire equalizes or outweighs the difference in strength and damage when looking at Marines, Terminators, and Gravis troops. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by jaxom

[Polythemus]

Calculations done. The assault plasma incinerators win out in almost all situations including against Knights once WotDA and Catechism of Fire are factored in. The sheer weight of fire equalizes or outweighs the difference in strength and damage when looking at Marines, Terminators, and Gravis troops.

But for only one use cause it seems like a lot of overheats happen with all those shots and will probably take out a third of you squad depending on how the chapter trait gets interpreted

Edited August 21, 2020 by Polythemus

[Aeri]

There is no room for interpretation. Natural 1s overheat.

A Master would help though.

[Jings]

2 shots at 15 or 30 without moving.

 

They're not bolters so unless 9th changed Rapid Fire rules or there's a stratagem I'm forgetting you only get two shots at 15"

 

I'm really liking the look of the Heavy. 5-10 42" S9 AP-5 D4 shots on the first turn rerolling 1s to hit is gonna be a real threat that can delete a tank every turn. They're effectively better, more consistent Lascannons. They'll compete with Plasma Cannon Devs for sure, but I think they'll probably be a bit more consistent when dealing with heavy tanks and knights thanks to that extra point of strength.

 

Depending on how they're costed, they could be a real dark (angel) horse.

[JJD]

I didn’t realise but I think I built my Hellblasters wrong. I thought I had built them as rapid fire but I think I built them half way between assault and rapid fire. They have the laser target for assault but not the scope.

[Fierce Bear]

I was looking through the instructions for the multipart kit, the incinerator/assault version don't appear be consistently different... I think only the heavys are obvious cases for WYSIWYG...

 

Why would you want a scope on a close assault/fire from the hip, mini-sun gun anyway

[Vardus]

Why would you want a scope on a close assault/fire from the hip, mini-sun gun anyway

 

It's not a scope, it's a multi spectrum targeting array.

[Fierce Bear]

 

 

Why would you want a scope on a close assault/fire from the hip, mini-sun gun anyway

It's not a scope, it's a multi spectrum targeting array.

Opps... My bad! Back to bolt pistols and chainswords for this battle brother #Demoted!

[Vardus]

 

 

Why would you want a scope on a close assault/fire from the hip, mini-sun gun anyway

It's not a scope, it's a multi spectrum targeting array.

Opps... My bad! Back to bolt pistols and chainswords for this battle brother #Demoted!

 

 

When I first saw the kit, I thought why isn't the scope on the Heavy version? Then I read somewhere that it was a targeting array and looking closely at it i realised it's not a scope so then it made sense as it's not a spay and pray bolt weapon but an advanced hot death machine!

[jaxom]

I cannot seem to get a table to bbc code correctly so no tables (even the example table code wasn't working). This is to provide a baseline of whether or not one feels a need to overcharge. If people want this level of detail for "With Capt", "With Lt","with WotDA", "with CoF", "with WotDA & CoF" let me know, 'cause it takes a while to type all this out.

 

Something to note: overcharging is not necessarily the most efficient way to handle 2D and 3D targets if the extra strength does not change the wound roll. For example, WotDA vs Overcharge for assault plasma incinerators against MEQ have the same probabilities, but the latter can kill your Hellblasters while the former costs CP.

 

Stationary, No Strats (10 models shooting per unit)

[GEQ]

Assault Incinerator - 20.8 dead [OC - No, don't do that]

Incinerator, RF - 13.9 dead [OC - Seriously, don't]

Incinerator - 6.9 dead [OC - It's a waste]

Heavy Incinerator - 6.9 dead [OC - Very inefficient]

 

[MEQ]

Assault Incinerator - 8.3 dead [OC - lose 5, 16.7 dead]

Incinerator, RF - 5.6 dead [OC - lose 3.3, 13.9 dead]

Incinerator - 2.5 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 6.9 dead]

Heavy Incinerator - 6.9 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 6.9 dead]

 

[TEQ]

Assault Incinerator - 3.7 dead [OC - lose 5, 5.5 dead]

Incinerator, RF - 2.5 dead [OC - lose 3.3, 4.6 dead]

Incinerator - 1.2 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 2.3 dead]

Heavy Incinerator - 2.3 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 4.6 dead]

 

[GrEQ]

Assault Incinerator - 5.6 dead [OC - lose 5, 8.3 dead]

Incinerator, RF - 3.7 dead [OC - lose 3.3, 5.5 dead]

Incinerator - 1.9 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 2.7 dead]

Heavy Incinerator - 2.8 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 5.5 dead]

 

[KEQ]

Assault Incinerator - 5.6 damage [OC - lose 5, 11.1 damage]

Incinerator, RF - 3.7 damage [OC - lose 3.3, 7.4 damage]

Incinerator - 1.9 damage [OC - lose 1.7, 3.7 damage]

Heavy Incinerator - 5.6 damage [OC - lose 1.7, 11.1 damage]

 

Moved, No Strats

[GEQ]

Assault Incinerator - 16.7 dead (12.5 if advanced)

Incinerator, RF - 11.1 dead

Incinerator - 5.6 dead

Heavy Incinerator - 4.2 dead

 

[MEQ]

Assault Incinerator - 6.7 dead (5.0 if advanced) [OC - lose 5, 13.3 dead (10 if advanced)]

Incinerator, RF - 4.4 dead [OC - lose 3.3, 11.1 dead]

Incinerator - 2.2 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 5.6 dead]

Heavy Incinerator - 4.2 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 4.2 dead]

 

[TEQ]

Assault Incinerator - 3.0 dead (2.2 if advanced) [OC - lose 5, 4.4 dead (3.3 if advanced)]

Incinerator, RF - 2.0 dead [OC - lose 3.3, 3.7 dead]

Incinerator - 1.0 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 1.9 dead]

Heavy Incinerator - 1.4 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 2.8 dead]

 

[GrEQ]

Assault Incinerator - 4.4 dead (3.3 if advanced) [OC - lose 5, 6.7 dead (5 if advanced)]

Incinerator, RF - 3.0 dead [OC - lose 3.3, 4.4 dead]

Incinerator - 1.5 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 2.2 dead]

Heavy Incinerator - 1.7 dead [OC - lose 1.7, 3.3 dead]

 

[KEQ]

Assault Incinerator - 4.4 damage (3.3 if advanced) [OC - lose 5, 8.9 damage (6.7 if advanced)]

Incinerator, RF - 3.0 damage [OC - lose 3.3, 5.9 damage]

Incinerator - 1.5 damage [OC - lose 1.7, 2.9 damage]

Heavy Incinerator - 3.3 damage [OC - lose 1.7, 6.7 damage]