Reivers Wishlisting

[Dr. Clock]

I have 10 Reivers I want to use, but definitely feel like they'd benefit from a slight increase in killiness.

 

Can I get a Frater 'heck yes' on at least the ability to upgrade sergeant weapons, and just maybe a little buff on their knives?

 

How else could they be reasonably buffed as an 'outflanking terror infantry' without making Incursors and Infiltrator and Assault Intercessors pointless?

 

What do we expect from the Codex in Oct. to help out our Skeletors?

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Dr. Clock

[MARK0SIAN]

I think improving their killiness is going in the wrong direction. There’s no real way you can do that without invalidating assault intercessors and similar units. I don’t think lethality is really going to be their thing. I think they need to carve another niche for them. Go all in on the sabotage/confusion/terror aspect of them rather than straight combat.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

What do we expect from the Codex in Feb. to help out our Skeletors?

 

Did I miss something? Isn't the Codex still scheduled for October?

[Indefragable]

I've said it in other places, but most certainly with the advent of Assault Intercessors, I think Reivers should become a Debuff unit rather than a damage unit. Have their sauce be in disrupting enemy abilities and attacking the opponent's game plan rather than his units. 

 

How could that manifest?

 

-Denial unit: if they are on an objective, the enemy can't score points from it yet the Reivers' controlling player cannot either. 

-Straight debuffs: -1 to: To Hit, to movement, to attacks, to Ld, to Wounds characteristic, to enemy's damage or AP, range, or any combo of those effects

-Mandatory response: if an enemy unit has been successfully Wounded by a Reiver unit, then an enemy unit that had not been wounded by a Reiver attack that is the next closest to said Reiver unit, must shoot and charge said Reiver unit. 

 

Just spitballing, but the idea is that they are a different kind of unit, one that messes with the formula of the game or the opponent rather than just straight up good at Offense or Defense or Maneuverability. 

[Klod]

I think Ld debuff is fine, it just needs a more reliable way of applying said debuff. Maybe if they shoot at an Infantry/Biker unit within 12'', that unit recieves a -1 Ld debuff, or -2 Ld if the Reiver unit contains 10 models (to make taking bigger unit worth it). In addition if they charged that Infantry/Biker unit this turn, and Reivers are equiped with Combat Knifes, that unit adds +1 to their Combat Attrition rolls (to make taking Combat Knifes worth it).

Edited August 20, 2020 by Klod

[Dr. Clock]

I think improving their killiness is going in the wrong direction. There’s no real way you can do that without invalidating assault intercessors and similar units. I don’t think lethality is really going to be their thing. I think they need to carve another niche for them. Go all in on the sabotage/confusion/terror aspect of them rather than straight combat.

Yeah I hear that... but 'sabotage/confusion/terror' kind of amounts to 'more killiness' in a game that does Leadership by causing attrition based on damage. If they were just cheaper (or got grav/grapnel for free?) I would feel a bit better about taking them in a 'cheaper Troops' slot, but they aren't even Troops, despite being cheaper than all other Primaris Troops.

 

How would you implement 'going all in on sabotage/confusion' in 9th?

 

-Denial unit: if they are on an objective, the enemy can't score points from it yet the Reivers' controlling player cannot either. 

-Straight debuffs: -1 to: To Hit, to movement, to attacks, to Ld, to Wounds characteristic, to enemy's damage or AP, range, or any combo of those effects

-Mandatory response: if an enemy unit has been successfully Wounded by a Reiver unit, then an enemy unit that had not been wounded by a Reiver attack that is the next closest to said Reiver unit, must shoot and charge said Reiver unit.

Love it... Denial makes sense, and shock grenades are actually pretty nifty, but really let down by the 6" range [and somewhat for low shots].

 

I think there could be room in the 9th Ed. Ld rules to make them alot nastier... like forcing +d3 models to drop immediately if a check is failed or something? Or even 'force opponent to re-roll ones when rolling for a model that failed a check'...?

 

I don't quite see why an Elites slot couldn't just be 'Assault Intercessors but with an extra attack'... so why are they Elites again?

 

I will of course be trying to milk them as a 'one-two' assault punch with outflanking Assault Intercessors for maximum backfield fun... But I still want a bit more 'wow' factor even if I have to get lucky on a roll or two. -1 Ld and Shock grenades plus expensive grapnels doesn't quite do it yet...

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Dr. Clock

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think improving their killiness is going in the wrong direction. There’s no real way you can do that without invalidating assault intercessors and similar units. I don’t think lethality is really going to be their thing. I think they need to carve another niche for them. Go all in on the sabotage/confusion/terror aspect of them rather than straight combat.

I don't think assault Intercessors would be invalidated if reivers got damage and or AP buffs. I mean one is a troop choice and one is elite choice (and if we're being honest the worst elite choice in the codex). Nothing should be off the table in improving them at this point.

 

I really think some sort of damage buff the first round of combat if they charged, and possibly a movement buff would help them immensely.

[Alcyon]

With the Ld debuff rule and the combat blades I think they're intended to be more of an anti-infantry unit, sort of a combat equivalent of Onslaught Gatling Cannons. I'd give them exploding 6s on the knives (good contrast to -1 AP for chainswords) and change the Terror Troops rule so they give a minus to combat attrition. Maybe they could also remove enemy troop ObSec, that seems more fair than giving it to them as that way they have to successfully kill enough to outnumber the foe.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Alcyon

[chapter master 454]

Combat Blades AP2...like the model designers thought they would be and should of been.

 

Make the leadership debuff work based on the number of models nearby, not units (for every say 3 models? to the cap of -3 leadership)

 

Have the carbines mean something, maybe a form of fade move that the eliminator sergeant can give.

 

Have a stratagem that enhances them in someway, maybe any enemy units within their aura suffer a -1 to attrition checks. Also on the aura, have it be 3" only when there are 5 or less, it goes to 6" when there is a full 10 of them (that last could be a bit on the nose but they are an elite choice and that is the HOTTEST slot in marines imo. They need to be worth it).

 

edit: Clarifying a statement

Edited August 21, 2020 by chapter master 454

[Daynga-Zone]

The fire and fade from the eliminator sgt carbine makes sense fluff wise and would make them excellent skirmishers. Denying charges is huge.

[Dr. Clock]

Great thread, all

 

Clearly they're a unit that people want to use >: )

 

I really like the exploding 6s idea - definitely some play there - but would we even consider something like 'exploding damage' (going to D2 or even getting mortal a mortal wounds) on 6s to-wound or somesuch to denote the brutal 'knife in the throat' style we'd expect from these skully bois? Mortal wounds on 6s is probably too much to ask... but they ARE still Elites.

 

Seems the consensus is that more Ld mechanics in general would be an easy win...

 

But heck, is it really such a stretch that maybe shock grenades are a credible threat? Make 'em S1 but cause a mortal wound on a 6 to-wound?

 

How about punching up the mobility angle, and let us pay 1 CP to advance after dropping in?

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Claws and Effect]

Make their shock grenades 12" range.

 

Boom. They're useful.

[BluejayJunior]

Let them keep the -1 to leadership and add a -1 to combat attrition tests for nearby enemy units. That would help. 

[Rik Lightstar]

I'd like to see them prevent enemy units performing *actions* within a certain range, make them a real harassment unit.

 

Rik

[Mandragola]

To me, Reivers feel like a unit that shouldn't even be on a 40k battlefield. They're for murdering people in their sleep the night before.

 

Maybe some sort of pre-game thing to simulate them getting up to mischief. An example might be a strat you could play on the enemy during deployment, forcing one of their units to walk on from strategic reserve on their own table edge. This might be too powerful though. The cost should probably be fairly high and should escalate with power level - and Titanic units should probably be immune.

[Dracos]

Lots of good concepts. My favorite since as making Attrition more likely. I also like the -2AP for the combat blades or mortals on a nat “6”. And something absolutely needs to be done about those grenades. I’d be all for having them be ObSec or denying it. The former seems easier game play wise than the latter and less feel bads. No one likes having their rules negates (looking at you IF;)).

[L30n1d4s]

What about this:

 

1 - Within 12" of Reivers, enemy units lose models to attrition tests on a 5+

**Fits their role as terror troops

 

2 - All Reiver grenades go up to 12" range

**Fits their role as disruption troops

 

3 - Reivers reroll 1s to Hit and 1s to Wound against Infantry units

**Fits their role of operating behind enemy lines, without needing HQ support nearby (and gives them more damage output as a "bully" unit)

[Minsc]

Incursors got AP1 on their Paired Combat Blades, so it would just be weird if Reivers remain AP0. 
On the flipside, Chainswords for firstborn become AP1 now as well, but Combat Blades for Scouts remain AP0.
So who knows what will happen to Reivers in the end...

Personally I just hope that their main schick in 9th won't be being "the cheapest Primaris-infantry, the one without any AP that throws flashbangs that does far less in 9th than what it did in 8th".

Currently I just view them as Assault Intercessors without AP1 and Obsec, but who are slightly cheaper. Very "elite" indeed...

[War Angel]

If they were effectively Assault intercessors, with the deployment tricks, and the fear trick (possibly adjusted?) but had a points increase to reflect everything, and instead of being troops were elite. Would that be enough, and still be unique?

[redmapa]

Even if Reivers gain AP1 blades then they are still on the same level as any of troop choices which means they are still an inferior choice for an assault unit, they dont fulfill a core role within a force organization chart and no obsec and all they give is S4 AP0/-1 attacks which is something the Marine book has bucket loads of. The Elite slot is where  the really killy stuff is, specially for melee, and now that Reivers will be competing with 2W Vanguard Veterans then they are even less of a choice then they were before.

 

What do they need? To be useful, Vanguard Veterans and Bladeguard are already filling in for the killing potential and Reivers could just remain cheap while being some sort of buffing unit, have their grenades be a 12" throw and go all in on their theme of jumping into a zone and clearing it, let them have something like the old Sternguard special ammo but in the form of grenades and let the whole unit throw one and you got yourself a unit that not only is unique and has a niche within a list but is actually useful.

[Dracos]

As  a Raven Guard player I can tell you there is an important difference between Paired Combat Blades and a Combat Knife ; Phobos Lieutenant's Relic choices.

[Mandragola]

As a Raven Guard player I can tell you there is an important difference between Paired Combat Blades and a Combat Knife ; Phobos Lieutenant's Relic choices.

This is something that sees quite a bit of random variance between codexes. Some have really cool knife relics and they can be given out quite arbitrarily to different people. The salamanders one is special issue wargear so reiver sergeants can have it. I was sure someone had a relic you could give to the LT with paired blades but now I can’t find it.

 

Very interested to hear about incursors getting ap-1. I hadn’t heard that before. It would definitely make them much more of an interesting option, and better than reivers by an even greater amount. I guess that if they’re getting it reivers really must - but then scouts aren’t...

[Guest Triszin]

Terror troops:

-Double the models lost to combat attrition

[Dr. Clock]

So what are we thinking about price and options then?

 

If we consider that an Elites (Close Support/Vanguard?) choice of 5 marines really ought to cost at least as much as its corresponding Troop (Battleline/Vanguard?) how much of a 'terror troop' buff seems reasonable to bring them to 120 pts like the Infiltrators?

 

• To my mind the two units are basically on either end of the Vanguard spectrum, but Reivers are not Troops, and I don't actually think it makes sense to make them so. However I really like the idea that they prevent Actions, so let's go with that in a 6" bubble? This rewards aggressive positioning, even if you can't charge this turn, or fail a charge. I like having Vanguard units outside Troops, and Reivers make sense as Elites or FA in the 10th Co.

 

Let's call this a wash vs making them Troops? So points unchanged?

 

• 12" shock grenade: add a point = 19pts = 95/unit

 

• Make their knives work like marksman bolters > 6s to wound ignore armour? This would make them at least something to do vs bigger chumps, and represent stabbing in-between armour plates or whatever bloody mess. Probably +2 points each = 21pts = 105/unit

 

• Then the true Terror Troops kicks in and we double Combat Attrition losses? +2 points? = 23 = 115/unit

 

• Add smoke grenades as basic Vanguard kit: +1 pt = 24 = 120/unit

 

At that point I'd still take the grav and grapnel for 140 total... 5 points more than 3 basic Aggressors, but super fun and potentially very rewarding to play.

 

Plan overall is to use the Reivers alongside Outflanking Assault Intercessors and a character for a fun little flank assault, likely in Combat Squads to max out Reiver debuff coverage. Current force is basically Primaris halves of Dark Imperium and Indomitus but I bought plasma Inceptors and obviously Reivers in the first wave. Waiting on vehicles until Primaris Speeders show up: Storm Lords.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Dr. Clock

[Jacques Corbin]

What about ramping up their disruption usage? Such as if Reivers are in melee with a unit, that unit cannot benefit from aura abilities. Also, if Reivers are in melee with a character then no unit benefits from his aura, even the character himself. I mean, weren't they billed as character killers in the lore when they first came out?

 

Also, I want to see Astartes Shotguns on Reivers. It would just be cool.