A Little Crafty Experiment

[Prot]

Hello,

 

Eldar Craftworlds was something I restarted in 8th edition. I had played them for many years, then stopped playing them all together when they were almost... unenjoyable to play against.

 

So long story short, I've played quite a few 9th edition games now. Probably 25+ in total at this point and I've decided it's time to try these turkeys out. I have hesitated and have a very mixed feeling about it.

 

I do love the models, and the work I did on the army is my own look, and I like it. The theme was very hard to get working in 8th, but in 9th it might be a touch better.

 

Regardless I do feel a better handle on 9th and I think Eldar will be very tricky to use for even skilled players. They just don't have that automatic ability to gain primary points through strong Obsec. It just isn't there... they aren't Death Guard, or Marines, or Custodes, to name a few. 

 

That being said I think my games in 9th against a fair amount of competitive players have told me that a 'crafty' player (no pun intended) will have the ability to manipulate secondaries, while guarding against a beating in the primary, to hopefully come out on top. 

 

So before I ramble too much, that is the gist of what where I'm coming from. I plan on running a list tonight which will be based on the following:

 

- Psyker lead detachments (perhaps Autarch on bike just because).

- Wraith Axe/Shield foot base.

- Multiple Wave Serpents.

- Dire Avengers

- Wraithlords

- D-cannon Artillery (move and shoot).

 

More terrain, less ability to retreat wit fly = stuff that doesn't fly, but can hide better. The transports are just 'good' if not a bit pricey.

 

The goal is to test my own theories and try not to handicap myself too much with units I love. Sounds weird, but it's bad to fall in love with units that cost you the game. This basically ended my 8th edition experiments.

 

Things I will likely minimize this go around:

- Artillery: Too many kill points, and limitations to hit/wound.

- Rangers: Just too easy to lose critical home objectives, too expensive to spam in relation to ability.

- Night Spinners: Another great 8th edition unit that is more susceptible to being locked in, and expensive with new point hikes.

- Flyers: these took a ridiculous point hike. Simply not worth it, especially on a smaller table with (fly) assault units getting a bit of a boost. Plus other flyers are just so much better for the points. 

 

I'm still not sold on most Aspects. The new boxes of Banshees still appear to be one of the worst functioning 'new' units of 8th edition. They and their Banshee god will sit in a rather unceremonious box.

 

So for now I will leave it at that, but hopefully I have some good experiences tonight. Wish me luck. 

 

 

[MadEdric]

Do note that they said powerswords with +1S is across the board. So Banshees will be moving up to S4. Helps a bit.

I’ve found with Aeldari, part of the game is removing their troops ASAP. Now some armies will be hard, but the right powers and it can be done.

I love a vehicle heavy Aeldari list backed by Guardians, though I’m starting to move towards wraith units lately. Their look is what sells them to me. I’ve had some luck and fun with wraithlords and wraithguard/blades. Cursing the opponents unit with -1 to wound means both are likely being wounded on 6’s by all but the most dedicated combat units. I once had a single wraithlord tank and slowly whittle down a group of 30 orcs boys for nearly 3 turns, just giving them -1 to hit and wound. After that the psykers buffing him charged in and helped him finish them off.

[Karhedron]

I think that Wraithlords will potentially work well but will need extra points spending on them in 9th. Dual heavy weapons are worth considering now that they no longer get -1 to-Hit when moving and shooting. I also think that flamers are a worthwhile upgrade now that they can be fired in melee. Imagine how much quicker a Wraithlord would chew through a unit of 30 Boyz with an extra 2D6 S4 auto-hits in the shooting phase even in melee.

[MadEdric]

I totally hear you there. Wraithlords can use heavies pretty well now. Of course I didn’t magnetize mine andwill require work to get out of the Shuricannon and cheap catipults.

[The Yncarne]

Thats the list the competitive group player used yesterday. He swapped the artillery for war walkers but otherwise was pretty much it. He did well against a first time ultra marines player.

Edited August 24, 2020 by The Blood Raven

[Karhedron]

Interesting that people seem disappointed by artillery given that 9th Ed seems to have denser terrain and better LOS rules. My instinct would have been that weapons that ignore LOS would be in a stronger position.

 

On the Marine side, Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds seem to have been repriced on the basis that their relative value has increased.

[The Yncarne]

In my case I'd avoid artillery over something like war walkers due to the need to constantly cap objectives. I do agree with you

Karhedron that marine artillery is pretty good in an army that appears to be able to cap objectives better than most of my faction lists.

[Prot]

Thats the list the competitive group player used yesterday. He swapped the artillery for war walkers but otherwise was pretty much it. He did well against a first time ultra marines player.

 

Wow. Since my last game I thought about my biggest problems being... staying power and damaging vehicles (T7+) with any meaningful shots. I decided to drop the Artillery in my list, and add Warwalkers! (Just 2).

 

So it's funny to read this... if I understand you're saying a competitive player in your group is playing a similar list to mine, except with WW's and no Artillery? 

 

I have to say I just kept going over the points and got a feeling that Warwalkers might help my dilemma while I cannot find a strong role for Artillery.

 

Interesting that people seem disappointed by artillery given that 9th Ed seems to have denser terrain and better LOS rules. My instinct would have been that weapons that ignore LOS would be in a stronger position.

 

On the Marine side, Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds seem to have been repriced on the basis that their relative value has increased.

 

So here's the thing. Eldar Artillery is exceptionally easy to destroy. It's too expensive as well. Also the issue here is the best 'all around' weapon IMO is the Vibro and it ended up nerfed by the inherent 9th ed rules. Not only that but it needs line of sight.

 

What I've been finding in my 20+ games is Bring it down is one of the most common selections I'm seeing against my armies. Artillery, unfortunately, have the Vehicle keyword. This means if you can't obscure them, they don't get the benefit of cover, and do count towards bring it down. Most artillery, including Eldar, is deployed separately, giving 2 victory Points for each death... which is extremely easy to accomplish unless you are hiding/obscured. 

 

Now the problem becomes the ShadowWeaver is just so weak, and more of the same that we have in abundance, and while the D-Cannon is quite punchy, I hate D3 shots. The fact it's 24" is a bit of a turn off.

 

The Warwalkers are decent value. I'm experimenting my next game with 2. Just so I can come in off the edge, one missile, one Shuriken Cannon each. This also helps with Engage on All fronts. It's just good to have something that can respond to opponent movement, and not be shot, while still having that missing punch.

 

All indirect is mighty powerful now. I think overall indirect is getting looked over by a few players, and really I think a few armies have the best: Astra, Marines, and AdMech. Eldar indirect is really finicky. The Night Spinner I used to take 3 of, is now down to 1. Not having AP in 9th is super rough. There's gobs of terrain now (or their should be anyway) in your games. 

 

With so little AP I feel it's mandatory to deny cover with the kind of list I'm fielding which quite frankly has a plethora of junky firepower. (Fishing for 6's to take down a 2+ save model is a pretty labour intensive way to lose a game!)

 

Jinx is so critical now for me. I just kept slapping Focus Will on my SpiritSeer. 

 

I also think the Eldar Flyers are completely out of touch for 9th. They are pointed way too high, and offensive output is really all they have but it's not what it used to be. The old flyer lists were better at hiding, and then scoring a few different (ITC) missions. In 9th all they can really do is grab quarters, and they can't hide from assault now. 

 

With flamers going 12" that's going to be a nightmare for a lot of Eldar units. (Banshees are back in my list just for practice).

 

Test game with new list is coming up tonight. Wish me luck!

[The Yncarne]

 

Thats the list the competitive group player used yesterday. He swapped the artillery for war walkers but otherwise was pretty much it. He did well against a first time ultra marines player.

 

Wow. Since my last game I thought about my biggest problems being... staying power and damaging vehicles (T7+) with any meaningful shots. I decided to drop the Artillery in my list, and add Warwalkers! (Just 2).

 

So it's funny to read this... if I understand you're saying a competitive player in your group is playing a similar list to mine, except with WW's and no Artillery? 

 

 

That is correct.

 

He is running two war walkers instead of artillery. I don't recall what his army is armed with as its debut was Saturday and I was busy playing somebody else. Serpents carried the wraith guard and avengers and he had a pair of wraith lords. He's magnetized things like a good player.

 

This guy is a good player, crunches number well, and has a great memory. The rest of the group is pretty relaxed and "whatever" during the game so it's a different feel to play this person. Nice to not face ad-mech or guard though. lol.

 

I could do a similar list, but I've pledged harlequins for this edition. I will say a wraith army backed up by sky weavers and a shadowseer sounds tempting though.

 

Edit: shadowseer

Edited August 24, 2020 by The Blood Raven

[Prot]

I eventually want to get into that line (Harlequins). I have a buddy in the UK who is all over that. For now I'm just happy to see something I preferred in 8th that did not work too well, actually has some merit in 9th. Is it competitive? I don't know yet. Way too soon and too many variables to be sure.

 

So a little....

 

UPDATE:

 

- I made the above mentioned ammendments to my list:

   - 1 Vyper (EML+Shuricat)

   - 2 Warwalkers (EML+Shurikannon each)

   - Added Warlord: WraithSeer w/D-Cannon

   - 5 Banshees.

 

I guess I should explain the thinking: I had some real issues with Overwatch. Astra can make it so they hit on 5 and 6's and make sure they get the full volume of shots. That's nasty. I started thinking about flamers going to 12" and I think we will see a lot more. Which means a lot more overwatch potentially. Plus there's some nasty Tau in my meta.

 

What I took out:

   - Autarch on bike (so I can't farm CP as a result, but he was fairly lethargic without...)

   - 6 Shining Spears. (They're good, just not good enough for 175 pts).

   - 2 D-Cannon Artillery pieces. (They just relied on terrain too much and are exceptionally easy to relinquish Bring it Down points.)

 

I'm not saying these changes are for the best. Simply an experiment with some hunches involved.

 

The Rematch:

 

My frustrated Astra opponent wanted to try again with some amendments to his list.

He included Scions again, and the necessary flyer, with 2 Psykers (1 being an Inquisitor). Also a Wyvern. (I recommended he use a second Manticore, but he opted for the Wyvern). He still had a plethora of Russ' and 2 are Command tanks. 1 is a normal russ. And 2 flamer tanks. (Both exploded in our games!)

 

Long story short the Astra player's biggest adjustments allowed him to try new secondaries. Namely, Linebreaker, and a type of psychic test that must be done in my zone, two of them gets him 8 points. 4 of them gets him... more. 

 

I liked his choices however, with his plane I thought it was a no brainer for Engage on all fronts, but he did not take that. (Once he drops off psykers with the plane, and the Scion squads, he nearly had Engage and Linebreaker completed in one shot.)

 

Anyway I got first turn again... lucky me, and the funny thing is the outcome was almost identical to our last game.  The really weird difference was: His secondary scoring was better, however he really suffered on Primary. I was able to rush in a little quicker with the Wraithblades (Wraithseer casted a bonus to advance roll powers). And his extra resources on deep stirking left him less to block me out with in his zone.

 

Long story short I had another rather convincing win, but it was based on two things:

1: He gives up Thin Their Ranks, and Bring it Down quite a bit.

2: I really outscored on Primary (maxing it out) while he scored 5pts, 5pts,10pts,5pts. That's just... really not going to cut it against anyone I fear. I told him that if it were me playing his army, I would just grab 2 Objectives and totally own them. Just get 10 points a turn, but guarantee it as much as possible. Don't worry about getting 3-4 objectives. 

 

Observations:

1. I still can't kill tanks. The best result I had was a single Wraithlord made it to his zone and wrecked a flame tank. My Wraithblades combined with lots of shooting to assault the other flame tank to death. Otherwise, all of his Russ', Manticore, Wyvern was basically untouched. This is a real problem.

 

2. I have no AP. No AP in 9th is a horrible thing. Denying cover helps, but he still plays "Take Cover" to negate my negate. On top of that it's just pure luck on my part I can dump a pile of S4, S6 junk at his Infantry. Which has a 4+ or 5+ save. Against any marine army this is not going to work.

 

3. I am relying on EML's to do all my heavy shooting damage. This includes stuff like his Bullgryn which feel nearly as survivable as my Wraithblades.

 

4. Without him shooting continually at my Wraithblades, I'd probably have nearly nothing on the table. (We discussed this after the game.)

 

5. Wraithseer was very.. blah. His powers are mediocre. Probably should just smite with him. He's shootable on T1, so I ended up giving him an extra wound and a 6 up FNP, but it was horrible. That random D3 D Cannon just sucks. 

 

6. Every game I continually throw my units into his, to delay his shooting. This won't work against Tau which can annihilate anything in CC shooting (Astra have a lot of Blast).And Marines will just punch it dead.

 

I still feel like the army fades hard (except the Wraithblades). And the Wraithblades MUST have a TON of support to keep the machine working. It's a tough exchange where you have to feel like you are just continually giving up units, to grab points early.

 

I might have to explore other units. All I feel capable of killing is plebs in t-shirts. It shouldn't take 5 turns to kill 2 flame tanks. Any damage done on Russ's is simply healed over time. 

 

On the flip side I think my opponent seems so frustrated with his Astra, he's ready to shelve it. (We have a local Astra player that is doing well in competitive tournaments lately, but he plays 3 command tanks, and just a table of infantry.)

 

So while I'm winning, it feels just my list works against Astra at the moment. I'd hate to face (any) Marines, or Tau with it.

[The Yncarne]

I'm thinking that unless you're marines, 9th edition is just feeding units to the +1 primary objective grinder while hoping to be setup for some good secondary objective options. I really don't like looking at this game like that, and hope my experience changes.

 

I think the change to banshees will help with overwatch and flamers, but again, don't expect them to do much in HTH until power swords are +1S (maybe until Yneead walks amongst us).

 

I hope you stick with it, even if you have to mix it up. Thats why you have a large number of painted units, right? :)

[Karhedron]

If D-Scythes go to 12" like flamers, that could potentially be interesting.

[Prot]

I'm thinking that unless you're marines, 9th edition is just feeding units to the +1 primary objective grinder while hoping to be setup for some good secondary objective options. I really don't like looking at this game like that, and hope my experience changes.

 

I think the change to banshees will help with overwatch and flamers, but again, don't expect them to do much in HTH until power swords are +1S (maybe until Yneead walks amongst us).

 

I hope you stick with it, even if you have to mix it up. Thats why you have a large number of painted units, right?

 

Well I think there is a counter argument to that. For tournament games, there is a pure 'kill' type of secondary that is well suited to Tau. So I'll use Tau as an example. Since they can't often push something off of an objective (especially... let's say a tough Obsec unit like Custodes). Then the tactic becomes one of: Hold 2 every turn, and kill more. 

 

This way the lesser aggressive, less resilient troop army is always getting 10 points. This caps at 45 anyway on primary/secondary.

 

So with the unique tournament Grind them down (?), you are looking at potentially losing that secondary every turn to Tau/Admech/Astra(?)

 

This would be the army type to really worry about if you're Craftworlds. I hate the idea of playing 'bumper cars' for 2 hours with my transports, but it's really what the army excels at right now. It's risky, and if you convert vehicle choices to too many infantry choices, you play right into that issue of handing "Tau" types an easy secondary fill. Too many vehicles that are light (IE: Artillery (I discussed this already) etc) and you give up Bring it Down too easily.

 

Therefore, while I am believing I need to go for the Primary with my list type. The secondary goal here in list building is to not give up too many easy secondaries. (At least that's what I'd recommend to Eldar players.)

 

Thank you for the encouragement. It feels pretty uphill at the moment but I keep reminding myself a lot of codexes do, and will feel the same until new codexes come out. Plus Eldar is in dire need of new models.

 

 

If D-Scythes go to 12" like flamers, that could potentially be interesting.

 

I was thinking about this, but even right now I prefer the 12" Wraith guns... the points on a squad of D-Scythes feels horrendously expensive right now and no matter what I do, I can't seem to make D Scythes fit in the army. Too bad because I have a squad painted!

[The Yncarne]

You may very well be right re: Tau tactics. I don't do tournaments and hope my group moves more towards narrative crusade games once we get the rules better memorized. 

 

Won't resilient units be more likely to prevent grind them down type secondaries from your opponent? Here's how I see unit characteristics in terms of list building priority:

1. resiliency
2. speed/deployment
3. firepower

Again, not a competitive player (but adapting to one) nor very experienced in this edition.

[Prot]

Yes, I think you're right. I played Tau last night and the Tau player said there's no way he's going to take Grind them Down. (The drones give up too many kills to start with.)

 

The thing about Tau is they give up a lot of cruddy little kills, and you feel like you're doing something but in the long run you struggle to do damage to the real hard hitters.

[Plague _Lord]

Prot how do you feel about adding some muder clowns to a craftworld force? Bikes with haywire canons for extra AT and a solitaire for some CC crunch.

[Prot]

Prot how do you feel about adding some muder clowns to a craftworld force? Bikes with haywire canons for extra AT and a solitaire for some CC crunch.

 

I would love to try that but I don't own any Harlies. I guess coming from such an old background with Eldar, I just view pure craftworlds as the goal, but along the way (back in 7th) I fell in love with the Ynnari models so I did add them to my collection when I restarted Eldar.

 

Right now I'm trying to add Ynnari but in the future if possible I'd like to add those Harlie vehicles/bikes. They seem like a great compliment.

 

I'm also trying to make my Wraith based lists work... which is showing some 'mid level' success. I just played Tau, and that batrep will be up soon. :)