First game with Indomitus units - concerns!

[ServoBadger]

So I played my first game with the Indomitus units today.

 

1k points, my list was:

 

Indomitus Captain

Indomitus Lieutenant

3 x Bladeguard

2 x 5 Assault Intercessors

2 x 3 Eradicators

2 x 3 Outriders

 

My opponent took his Genestealer Cult, which has produced some great games in the campaign we've been having against my Deathwatch.

 

We played at the recommended minimum size of 30" x 44" as neither of us has played many games of 9th.

 

I crushed him. I stuck a unit on each objective and he could not move me.

 

Honestly unless I'd rolled nothing but ones all game I'm not sure what he could have done to win. Both of us were rolling fairly average and he just bounced off me, while on the other side I just deleted unit after unit.

 

The only thing in his list that held up were his aberrants, with the -1D and the ability to buff his FNP ability via a stratagem they were hard to get rid of, but that was it.

 

It was a really unsatisfying game, and I think for me more than him.

 

I'm not a tournament player, and while I like to win I'm not particularly competitive. Even less so this early in 9th, so I might not be the person 9th is aimed at, but Space Marines feel far too strong at this points level.

 

I feel that a particular problem on the 30" x 44" board is range. Heavy Bolt Pistols and particularly Melta Rifles just have too much range - the enemy can't hang back out of range, and if they need to come in close they're under fire for too long.

 

Does anyone else feel this way? Right now I'm thinking of putting the Indomitus stuff aside until a few codexes are out to keep things fun within my group!

[Rhavien]

GSC is the one army I really don't have any experience with, but I think you shouldn't rate your units after the first match. Maybe your enemy played a very weak list? Maybe he threw sciccors at stones? Was he aware what your guys are capable of? Enough terrain? But well, maybe switch some units in your list if this will give you both a better experience. I haven't played with all of the Indomitus stuff yet, just integrated them into my lists.

[t-dog1996]

Can you talk us through the game? What did he take? How did the game proceed? Did he make any identifiable mistakes? Could it be that his list simply wasn't optimised to deal with such a durable opponent given the fact that most of your units have either high toughness or good invulnerable saves? I'd play a couple more games with the stuff against more opponents before declaring it irredeemably OP.

[Panzer]

Marines are quite strong currently, yes. However you really shouldn't jump to conclusions based on a single game.

[Vermintide]

I don't think it was necessarily your fault, just a pretty harsh match up. People have been saying GSC have been hit really hard by the new points, so your opponent was probably lacking in strength, meanwhile the Indomitus units in particular are tailor made for a hard BA list.

[Arkhanist]

GSC were a good army in 8th - if you were familiar with their many tricks. Goonhammer have looked at GSC in 9th, and they took some really big hits - many cost changes were punitive, having multiple cults was near mandatory to maximise buffs and CP (which is now penalised with the new detachment system), and they don't really have the staying power in the new objective-holding meta - they can hit hard with the right units, but are very brittle. Their ability to deep strike easily has also become something available to all armies to an extent.

 

Marines comparatively got off pretty lightly, and have a wide range of units that suit the new take-and-hold gameplay.

 

My Death Guard were fairly weak in 8th; they did pretty well out of the points changes for 9th, and the wound increase looks to make them a very competitive army all of a sudden. GW giveth, and GW taketh away alas.

 

GSC aren't completely worthless, but they are definitely playing the game on hard mode at the moment, and many of the units and tactics that were good in 8th aren't any more so substantial list reworks are a must. So the indomitus units are largely good, but in an even skill matchup, pretty much any primaris centred list would have likely done him over. To be honest, I've shelved my GSC project for the time being, as they are going to need substantial reworking (and/or repointing) to make them fun to play again IMO.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Arkhanist

[Mordas]

as everyone said above, Marines are in a commanding position at the moment and until the new codexes come out it may take others a while to catch up.

 

I wouldn't shelve the new units straight away, maybe try and mix them in with more classic options you took previously? I know new model syndrome is hard to fight off but will allow you to gauge how these units really perform.

[ServoBadger]

Here's a little more detail.

 

We played Centre Ground from the main rule book.

 

I took Engage On All Fronts, Bring It Down and Attrition as my secondaries.

 

My opponent took the mission-specific secondary (also called Centre Ground), Engage On All Fronts and Linebreaker as his secondaries.

 

His army was Twisted Helix as follows - I don't recall every wargear choice, but hopefully you'll get the idea:

 

Abominant*

1 x 10 Neophyte Hybrids (2 x Heavy Stubber)

2 x 6 Acolyte Hybrids (1 x Saw each)*

1 x 6 Aberrants (including bloke with street sign who is the bane of my existence usually)*

1 x Acolyte Iconward*

1 x Leman Russ (Battle Cannon, 3 x Heavy Bolters)

1 x Wyvern

1 x Sentinel (Flamer)

1 x Armoured Sentinel (Plasma Cannon)

 

* indicates units starting in Cult Ambush or whatever it's called.

 

My opponent won the roll off and took first turn.

 

I hadn't done anything special in terms of deployment, basically lined up on the edge of my deployment zone. My plan, such as it was, was to use the speed of the Outriders to take the far objectives, walk the Eradicators on to the near objectives, and sort of go forward with the rest. Basically the whole point was to try out the new units and get more familiar with the 9th edition rules.

 

Battle Round 1

 

My opponent had scouted his Sentinel forward and moved it onto an objective close to my deployment zone, between two sets of large rocks. He then fired on me with the Sentinel, the Wyvern and the Leman Russ, the latter firing the Battle Cannon twice.

 

Total result: Three wounds to an Outrider and one wound to an Intercessor. No points.

 

In my turn I just had room between the Sentinel and the rocks to slalom the wounded squad of Outriders past and get them onto the far objective on my right, but I had to use turbo boost to do it.

 

A squad of Eradicators, a squad of Intercessors, the Bladeguard and the characters moved up to menace the Sentinel standing on the near objective to my right.

 

The other squad of Outriders moved onto the far objective on my left, a squad of Intercessors following, while the other squad of Eradicators moved onto the near objective on my left.

 

In the shooting phase, the Outriders and Assault Intercessors on the left gunned down a squad of Neophytes (this is where I first started having misgivings about pistols with an 18" range) while on the other side the Eradicators destroyed the Sentinel. I now had units on every objective and in three table quarters.

 

Result: 8 VPs

 

Battle Round 2

 

Since I'd basically vacated my deployment zone my opponent brought in all his ambushers in there, using a stratagem to get his Aberrants close to my characters - they were wide open to a charge from behind.

 

In the shooting phase I lost two Intercessors on my left and one on my right.

 

In the charge phase the Aberrants charged into the Captain and the Lieutenant. I played a stratagem to heroically intervene with the Bladeguard. He killed two Bladeguard and wounded the Lieutenant and I killed two Aberrants and wounded a third. -1D and 4+ FNP still does good work.

 

Result: 6 VPs

 

In my turn I still had all the objectives, so 15 points right there.

 

I brought a squad of Outriders back to cover a squad of Acolytes, the Iconward and the Abominant, and moved a squad of Assault Intercessors on to the objective previously held by those Outriders. The other squad of Assault Intercessors moved to support my characters, and one squad of Eradicators moved up to bring the enemy tanks into range.

 

In the shooting phase I melted the Leman Russ with one squad of Eradicators, melted four Acolytes with the other, and the Outriders dealt with the other squad of Acolytes. I then charged the Abominant and the Iconward, which didn't go well and the Outriders all died after putting a lot of wounds on the enemy. The Assault Intercessors charged the Aberrants, who were wiped out.

 

Another Acolyte ran away in the morale phase.

 

Result: 24 VPs (total 32)

 

Battle Round 3

 

At this point my opponent had an Abominant, an Iconward, an Acolyte, a Wyvern and an Armoured Sentinel left.

 

The Wyvern killed a couple of Intercessors, the Acolyte charged a squad of Eradicators and killed one before dying, and the Abominant and the Iconward charged the characters and the Assault Intercessors, killing no-one except the Iconward.

 

Result 0 VPs (total 6)

 

In my turn the Eradicators melted the Wyvern, and in the fight phase the Abominant was killed. With only the Armoured Sentinel left (and even that was damaged) my opponent sued for peace.

 

Result 25 VPs (total 57)

 

Now, I'm not saying my opponent's list was strong, or that he played it perfectly by any means, but it felt like I didn't have to play my army at all. I did what I intended to do and he couldn't stop me, and at no point was he able to pressure me - when I did react to his moves I didn't have to sacrifice objective or board control to do it.

 

Once I got somewhere near the middle of the board with the Eradicators they were just dominant. I honestly feel that their guns should be 18" range, just so that I would have had to make some decisions about what to do with them. Outranging Drukhari blasters with melta weapons just feels wrong, not to mention matching their range with pistols. Pistols!

 

(Oh, in case it matters - he also plays AdMech and Thousand Sons, and I play Imperial Fists (all Primaris), Blood Angels (all Firstborn bar Mephiston), Deathwatch (mixed), Drukhari and Tyranids. We've had some very one sided games, but I've never felt such a disparity before. I offered to replay the game with his stuff because I couldn't quite believe it, but he declined.)

[Morticon]

A few points- you were playing a 1k game - which makes the board a lot smaller.  You were playing some really, really solid units that are pretty optimised in terms of points to value ratio - and more importantly a really balanced list in terms of having good horde control in the outriders and assault inters as well as some decent firesupport. 

 

At 1k thats actually a really really solid list.  

Many armies would be hardpressed with rules as they are at current to engage a BA army like that. 

[The Unseen]

Yeah, the game isn't really balanced at 1k, thats a very strong list, and GSC got hit extremely hard with punitive points increases on their critical units along with their playstyle being fairly heavily nerfed in the swap to 9th. Being brittle is a recipe for failure now, and GSC are one of the most fragile armies in the game.

[Blindhamster]

also sounds like you played to the objectives more than your opponent.

I've a feeling eradicators are going to go up in points too tbh, they are a bit too much on the side of "too good for their points" right now. Probably up to 45 or maybe even 50 points. Outriders seem to get a lot of comments that they should go up too, so could see things change in the not so distant future honestly.

 

But yeah, GSC don't seem to have come off well with points changes, and your list is very very very good at such a small point game.

 

heavy bolt pistols have been 18 inches since start of 8th ed with rievers, and they weren't too good then, they aren't too good now tbh.

 

another thing, minimum table size is exactly that, its really aimed at the fact dining tables are smaller than the old GW sizings.

If you have the space to do slightly larger tables, you can and probably should.

[BluejayJunior]

Space Marines have been a hard counter for GSC for a while too. GSC are a very finesse army. You have to be tricky with them and maximize their hard hitting units. Most of their units just wilt to bolter fire. Lots of S4 attacks, even without any AP, will cut through them quickly. 

[Lord Blacksteel]

"My opponent took the mission-specific secondary (also called Centre Ground), Engage On All Fronts and Linebreaker as his secondaries."

 

I don't know if it makes it better or worse but you can't take both Linebreaker and Engage on all fronts - they're from the same category. 

 

Even on a small table, terrain makes a huge difference - might try adjusting that if you play a rematch. 

 

Your army is made up of tough, elite, short-ranged and assault units so it's pretty much built for this kind of engagement on a small table where the two center objectives are only 16" apart.

 

He brought a Wyvern (S4 AP0) and a Battle Cannon/3xHB Russ which are not really made for short-range engagements nor is the Wyvern great against Primaris Maines. Even without list-tailoring given the size of the battlefield and the makeup of your list he's fighting a bit uphill. 

 

It might play out somewhat differently just by going to 1500 and moving up to the strike force missions and table size.

[ServoBadger]

I appreciate the replies!

 

On the subject of table size I do agree - and I have a proper, dedicated 6'x4' gaming table - but what we were trying to do was play the game "as GW intended" - using the missions and table size appropriate to a 1000 point game based on the instructions in the rule book, rather than tweak the experience back toward what we've been doing in 8th edition.

 

It's really this small size that I think causes the problems. 18" pistols aren't a problem on a 72"x48" board - stick a model with one of them in the middle and (ignoring terrain) they can cover about 29% of it without moving if my maths are right. On a 30"x44" board it's 77%. It's even worse with the melta rifles, which cover 52% of a 72"x48" board but (nearly) all of a 30"x44" board. For Primaris Space Marines, at 1000 points, range is almost meaningless once you get somewhere near the middle of the board.

 

I dunno, I just feel that there's going to be a lot of Indomitus Space Marine armies floating around, a lot of new players, or players with new armies, building up to 1000pts and playing on the appropriate table size, and it feels that what GW have given those players is just a bit too good.

 

But like I said, just my thoughts!

 

Oh, and in case anyone thought I'd set out to bully my opponent...

 

When it comes to my unit choice, all I did was grab enough units from my two marine halves of Indomitus to make 1000pts. It took about five minutes in Battlescribe.

 

And when it comes to terrain, I have a ton of it and my opponent set up the board - again, this was a try 9th, try the Indomitus stuff kind of thing.

Edited August 24, 2020 by ThatRedOne

[Blindhamster]

On the subject of table size I do agree - and I have a proper, dedicated 6'x4' gaming table - but what we were trying to do was play the game "as GW intended" - using the missions and table size appropriate to a 1000 point game based on the instructions in the rule book, rather than tweak the experience back toward what we've been doing in 8th edition.

 

To be fair, they say minimum table size, not max, i.e. if you want to go larger you can and should. I'd always use tables a bit larger than those minimums if i had the space (I too have a 6x4 table I can use)

 

 

 

I do imagine both eradicators and outriders will get a tweak in points in the coming months. Will be interesting to see if that tweak comes with the codex update tbh

 

[Vermintide]

I don't think anyone could accuse you of trying to be That Guy with your list, it's an obvious but also very elegant list, it's almost ready made for a 1000 point game. Especially for Blood Angels- I thought of the exact same thing as soon as I'd got my hands on the Indomitus stuff.

 

Honestly I think the small tables are more of an "it's okay if you don't have tons of space" advisory, which makes the game more accessible. There are benefits and drawbacks, but ultimately I think playing full size is still going to offer a better game.

 

Really I'd have liked to see them do a bit more with varying sizes- There could be deployment maps that call for a long narrow battlefield, so both armies smash into a grinding attrition in the middle, or even smaller maps with specialised detachments for a skirmish-y scale at sub-500 points.

[brother_b]

I much preferred the old matched play and missions of 8th personally. Granted I’ve only played one low point 9th game but still. The new matched play missions are far too tournament style and specifically Frontline Gaming.

 

GE should have had matched play and Tournament play missions imho.

 

As far as your post goes I’m both glad and a bit put off; great that a starter set has an army that works well, bummed out that GSC appears to struggle this edition. Sure it’s one game, it goes hand-in-hand with many of the online battle reports, and matched play analysis of the army.

[Fajita Fan]

It's been alluded to here but as someone building a rather large GSC it's an army that has to win through deployment shenanigans, VP's, and denying you objectives - GSC are going to lose to almost anyone in a straight up slugfest.  It's an army about sacrificing a whole acolyte squad just to punk your warlord with a couple of demo charges while a Broodlord *maybe* dices up one of your troop squads.  I'm starting to realize my troop-heavy cult would've been better off as an IG vehicle army to be honest. 

[smileyjim]

So I played my first game with the Indomitus units today.

 

1k points, my list was:

 

Indomitus Captain

Indomitus Lieutenant

3 x Bladeguard

2 x 5 Assault Intercessors

2 x 3 Eradicators

2 x 3 Outriders

 

My opponent took his Genestealer Cult, which has produced some great games in the campaign we've been having against my Deathwatch.

 

We played at the recommended minimum size of 30" x 44" as neither of us has played many games of 9th.

 

I crushed him. I stuck a unit on each objective and he could not move me.

 

Honestly unless I'd rolled nothing but ones all game I'm not sure what he could have done to win. Both of us were rolling fairly average and he just bounced off me, while on the other side I just deleted unit after unit.

 

The only thing in his list that held up were his aberrants, with the -1D and the ability to buff his FNP ability via a stratagem they were hard to get rid of, but that was it.

 

It was a really unsatisfying game, and I think for me more than him.

 

I'm not a tournament player, and while I like to win I'm not particularly competitive. Even less so this early in 9th, so I might not be the person 9th is aimed at, but Space Marines feel far too strong at this points level.

 

I feel that a particular problem on the 30" x 44" board is range. Heavy Bolt Pistols and particularly Melta Rifles just have too much range - the enemy can't hang back out of range, and if they need to come in close they're under fire for too long.

 

Does anyone else feel this way? Right now I'm thinking of putting the Indomitus stuff aside until a few codexes are out to keep things fun within my group!

It seems that one big factor in a balanced game is well set up terrain and then playing smartly around it. GSC are also pretty weak atm