Are land speeders intended to be the forerunner of grav tank

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m thinking Landspeeder Storm. These wonderful skimmers has been with us for quite some time now too.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think the visual language is definitely meant to be there. The grav plates definitely remind me of a land speeder.

 

From what we've seen of the Storm Speeder, it has the same sort of plates as the impulsor, etc. The profile of the Storm Speeder reminds me a lot of the DA Darkshroud/LS Vengeance.

[Captain Idaho]

Honestly? I don't think so. At least, not any more than Dark Eldar Raiders are.

 

If they looked similar then yes maybe. But aside from being an open topped transport there isn't much in common.

[War Angel]

Makes me wonder if crawl was trying to weaponize the speeders movement, or if that was just a byproduct.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Arkham Land the Hand actually invented the speeder though.

[War Angel]

Arkham Land the Hand actually invented the speeder though.

Thought he discovered the STC (and land raider STC)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

He did discover many things but he couldn’t ever fix the nails in Angron’s head .

[wildweasel]

Imperial anti-grav has always been finnicky and difficult to produce - part of why Astartes get most of it for their Speeders and aerospace vehicles (the Stormwolf in specific was mentioned as incorporating it, and I've always figured that in general explains why Astartes flyers are so chunky and non-aerodynamic - as craft meant to operate in vacuum and atmosphere, anti-grav means they can dispense with wings for lift and just need some smaller surfaces for stability and weapon hardpoints). Meanwhile the IG, Navy, etc make do without.

 

But even that capacity wasn't sufficient for what the Primaris Project called for with its vehicle designs, so Cawl found/invented this particular variant of the technology that doesn't negate the effect of gravity so much as displace it (shout out to Traveller's Fire, Fusion, & Steel tech supplemental which had this exact variant of contra-grav technologies as an option) and we can reasonably presume it is more suited to manufacture with the needed specs to the point to equip the Primaris forces.

[Xenith]

What do you mean by "fore runner"? Describing your thinking would help discussion somewhat. Why do you mention the speeder storm and not the basic land speeder what's the difference in grab plating between them you're drawing attention to?

 

Indeed, Cawl probably saw the speeder and thought "hold my beer". The repulsor etc grab plates are definitely not STC though, he's gone off the rails with these.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Xenith

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I meant did it possibly provide the idea to develop a larger hover vehicle. I mention the Storm since it’s a transport as well. Like I said it was developed the Hand who was something of a genius .

[WrathOfTheLion]

It may have helped decide on the impulsor and the other hover tanks. At least with the newer landspeeders like the DA one, they painted its grav plate metallic, so they look a bit similar.

 

The rhino obviously had the main impact on the impulsor. I think the open back of the impulsor has a simpler reason though. There is this interior detail inside the rhino that many people don't bother with, so they made it open so you can show it off.

 

I also wonder if the repulsor was designed for 7e/firing arcs, where it has so many guns because they didn't expect all to shoot at everything.

Edited August 25, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[War Angel]

I also wonder if the repulsor was designed for 7e/firing arcs, where it has so many guns because they didn't expect all to shoot at everything.

 

It’s more likely the opposite, by removing the firing arcs they felt they could put more onto it without feeling like they were waisting points by having guns that couldn’t shoot.

[Snazzy]

Not really sure.  The 3rd edition CA had rules for models hitching a ride on standard Land Speeders.  Land Speeder Storms were released in 4th edition.  So, maybe there was some intent to just make the concept official.  

 

The other thing i would note is the changing perspective on grav technology in the Imperium on a meta level.  RT had jetbikes for Imperial Army and Space Marines.  Then there was a period where grav tech was so mysterious that it existed as only the Land Speeder, Samael's jetbike and the anti-grav plate used on Deathwatch Heavy Bolters (talk about an esoteric reference).

 

Then time moved on, armies like Ad Mech and Custodes were added who apparently had grav tech.  In the case of the Primaris tanks, i think it is another way of dipping into the more advanced nature of 30k, with its grav Rhinos and Volkite weapons.  It's advanced, but in the way we know the Imperium used to be.

[SpecialIssue]

I laugh because in this universe where technological stagnation is supposed to be one of the main themes/tenets of the metastory and faction design, the 30k golden age of humanity looks more grounded, basic and diesel, what with its massed grinding threads and roaring engines of all sorts, than the supposed degenerated future of 40k, with hovering tanks used as the main MBTs/APCs, walkers which apparently go on stealth missions, and mass-produced gravitic manipulation plates used as grav-chutes.

 

Many people say that the explanation of Cawl's tech is enough to inject Imperial flavour in - I disagree. It matters not what they use to hover, but rather that they hover, an indication of futurism and advancement to any observer; the description of Cawl's gravitics sounds exactly like someone trying very hard to paper over this dissonance by emphasizing the tech is still BRUTAL in all caps.

 

The faction design optics and visual themes are completely the wrong way round IMO. The Crusade/Heresy should have had far more weird vehicles and more common advanced scifi tropes, things that would look out of place to the modern 40k eye - graceful art-deco tanks and skimmers, Imperial Army soldiers jumping out of Land Raiders, etc.

Edited August 26, 2020 by SpecialIssue

[chapter master 454]

I laugh because in this universe where technological stagnation is supposed to be one of the main themes/tenets of the metastory and faction design, the 30k golden age of humanity looks more grounded, basic and diesel, what with its massed grinding threads and roaring engines of all sorts, than the supposed degenerated future of 40k, with hovering tanks used as the main MBTs/APCs, walkers which apparently go on stealth missions, and mass-produced gravitic manipulation plates used as grav-chutes.

 

Many people say that the explanation of Cawl's tech is enough to inject Imperial flavour in - I disagree. It matters not what they use to hover, but rather that they hover, an indication of futurism and advancement to any observer; the description of Cawl's gravitics sounds exactly like someone trying very hard to paper over this dissonance by emphasizing the tech is still BRUTAL in all caps.

 

The faction design optics and visual themes are completely the wrong way round IMO. The Crusade/Heresy should have had far more weird vehicles and more common advanced scifi tropes, things that would look out of place to the modern 40k eye - graceful art-deco tanks and skimmers, Imperial Army soldiers jumping out of Land Raiders, etc.

 

I like you.

 

However that aside the Land Speeder really wasn't a precursor to grav-tanks, more of a survivor in terms of STCs that made it to the 41st era. They were always a strange beast, some lore (mainly older stuff before flyers were common, like even predating the Tempest) makes them out to be a strange air-craft that darts around however it pleases while as the lore progresses it loses more of that extreme flight and becomes...more grounded I suppose the description I would use. Effectively as time has gone on they have went from Pseudo-Aircraft to rapid response craft. And even to this day, Cawl never worked out how they worked I believe and thus just did a Bender on them (made his own anti-grav) as the land speeder never really has the oddity that is repulsor tech and even custodes grav wasn't the same I believe. However it may be that it only works for small craft.

 

As time has gone on as well, the Speeder has become a bit of an odd-ball, in similar vain I would kin it to the Piranha of the Tau. Both are odd to both look at and to an extent work with but yet their efficacy is often proven with little doubt. Sort of unsung power houses of their respective factions Fast Attack slots.

 

However they haven't seen much in the way of updating and I mean...I don't think Forge World even sells land speeder tempests anymore (is there even a datasheet for those things? More of a relic than leviathans at this point) and thus with such little attention they get given I doubt they were much of a consideration in the design of the Repulsor and Impulsor Chassis...which can I ask, is there an actual designation for those chassis? Repulsor works but calling the smaller one the "impulsor" chassis seems a little weird. I suppose we do just call it a Rhino Chassis and Land Raider Chassis but it does sound awkward...but that's the primaris line-up in a nutshell: Add -or to the end of the name and call it an early lunch or go edgelord (Hellblaster...really?)

 

Though I wouldn't doubt that there are proto-grav tanks still to be discovered. I mean the Mechanicus have that weird new tank that apparently hovers but doesn't have fly (much rub their USB the wrong way seeing Cawl hand out tech like he did).

[Snazzy]

The faction design optics and visual themes are completely the wrong way round IMO. The Crusade/Heresy should have had far more weird vehicles and more common advanced scifi tropes, things that would look out of place to the modern 40k eye - graceful art-deco tanks and skimmers, Imperial Army soldiers jumping out of Land Raiders, etc.

 

Part of this is because of the legacy of Allen Blighe, and the tendency to inject RT models into the HH as if they were canon, and current models are the regressive versions.  To this end, jetbikes used to be common in the Great Crusade, grav Rhinos and shoulder mounted Multimeltas for the Imperial Army.  Also, these graceful art-deco tanks and skimmers do exist.  They are in the Custodes, which were always noted as being both above and apart from the rest of the Imperium.  There are other examples, like the MK IV Maximus armor being both advanced (for the time) and minimalist in design, immediately rebuked by MK V Heresy Armor's over the top design.

 

The setting has also always been Gothic.  Blanche's artwork for 30K, and even pre-Imperial materials has tended towards more brutal than typical sci fi.  It is just that 40K is even more Gothic than 30K.  Some of this is explained by the Emperor's pacts with the Selenar and the Mechanicus, both superstitious institutions wielding ancient technology outside of the Emperor's grasp.  What is considered the most advanced is often the most Grimdark: the Kaban Machine, the Scrap Code being a literal locked away evil in a Pandora's Box.  But, there's another explanation that making 30K too clean, too well put together makes it into something we as 40K wouldn't recognize, instead of 40K being a more dogmatic and regressive version of 30K.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

chapter master 455 do you have anything to base your claims upon? Sound more like conjecture to me. With things like Warlord Titans striding around grav tanks are in no way a stretch.

[SpecialIssue]

 

The setting has also always been Gothic.  Blanche's artwork for 30K, and even pre-Imperial materials has tended towards more brutal than typical sci fi.  It is just that 40K is even more Gothic than 30K.  Some of this is explained by the Emperor's pacts with the Selenar and the Mechanicus, both superstitious institutions wielding ancient technology outside of the Emperor's grasp.  What is considered the most advanced is often the most Grimdark: the Kaban Machine, the Scrap Code being a literal locked away evil in a Pandora's Box.  But, there's another explanation that making 30K too clean, too well put together makes it into something we as 40K wouldn't recognize, instead of 40K being a more dogmatic and regressive version of 30K.

 

 

Of course, I agree that 40k shouldn't simply have been Star Wars in 30k. But throughout earlier editions, particularly Imperial Armours, there was tantalizing in-universe speculation -entire armies with Leman Russ Executioners as the standard tank, usage of Abhumans and hover technologies, etc. Very 40k tech, but undoubtedly different in design, composition and usage to the late 41st.

 

I think I'm influenced a lot by the artwork we had of 30k pre-BL HH series, such as all the artwork for the HH CCG and the first Collected Visions - those images show an art-deco leaning in many of their compositions. In addition, Blanche's work are ambiguous in their point of view and objectivity, arguably being just as much an in-universe 41st millennium/fever-dream depiction of the GC/HH, and thus a severely subjective and 41st millennium-colored view of how those 30k actually was.

 

 

 

The faction design optics and visual themes are completely the wrong way round IMO. The Crusade/Heresy should have had far more weird vehicles and more common advanced scifi tropes, things that would look out of place to the modern 40k eye - graceful art-deco tanks and skimmers, Imperial Army soldiers jumping out of Land Raiders, etc.

 

Part of this is because of the legacy of Allen Blighe, and the tendency to inject RT models into the HH as if they were canon, and current models are the regressive versions.  To this end, jetbikes used to be common in the Great Crusade, grav Rhinos and shoulder mounted Multimeltas for the Imperial Army.  Also, these graceful art-deco tanks and skimmers do exist.  They are in the Custodes, which were always noted as being both above and apart from the rest of the Imperium.  There are other examples, like the MK IV Maximus armor being both advanced (for the time) and minimalist in design, immediately rebuked by MK V Heresy Armor's over the top design.

 

 

And yes, while the Custodes do fulfill much of the design features I'd like to see in 30k compared to 40k, it doesn't mean I still wouldn't like more of that influence in the 30k aesthetic to personify each period. The Deimos Predator, with its circular turret/sponsons/side hatches is an excellent example of injecting some art-deco into a design while still keeping it industrial and recognizable to WH40k; unlike say the Sicarian, which does nothing with its visuals to echo or signal its belonging to a more progressive, WH30k period apart from the afterthought of circular sponsons. The RT concepts they've reintroduced into Heresy I actually find are the best at communicating they are non-41st millennium designs (archaic weapons, circular sponsons/doors/turrets, rounded-off more-upright dreadnoughts, etc.)

 

Anyways, back to topic - imo nothing justifies the hover-designs proliferating in 40k from a faction-design standpoint apart from the money to be made from these new models.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

All you’re really saying is you want the game to fit into the way you invision it. Using 30k is a really bad example to prop your claims. Many of the same vehicles are available in 40k .

[Ishagu]

The Landspeeders are not related to the new "Grav Tanks" if we dive in to the lore about them.

 

The speeders use Grav Plates of an STC design that are elegant and fast - but also limited in what they can lift. The Repulsor Tanks and the Impulsor variant use a Repuslor field to keep the vehicle aloft - not anti-grav tech. It is a more brutish, aggressive technology. Cawl was in part showing off, in part improving past designs when he created the new lines of vehicles.

 

Cawl used a combination of recovered STC blueprints, Martian tech and his own ingenuity to create the new Vehicles and weapons. His designs are still not up to scratch with what the Emperor designed for the Custodes - they have access to far more sleek, elegant and capable, Grav tanks that can no longer be manufactured. That being said, I'm sure Cawl can replicate them if he got his hands on some.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Ishagu

[chapter master 454]

My statements regarding the land speeder comes from older codexes, mainly the 3rd and 4th I believe but those memories are very faded so I may of crossed things up without meaning to but I am sure the land speeder used to get talked about in lore as if it were some sort of flyer which was why it was able to deep strike (it would fly above the battlefield then just drop it. Was a hot topic of debate on here what was better for multi-melta delivery: Land Speeder deep strike or an attack bike turbo boosting and gaining that cover save for a turn).

[War Angel]

The Landspeeders are not related to the new "Grav Tanks" if we dive in to the lore about them.

The speeders use Grav Plates of an STC design that are elegant and fast - but also limited in what they can lift. The Repulsor Tanks and the Impulsor variant use a Repuslor field to keep the vehicle aloft - not anti-grav tech. It is a more brutish, aggressive technology. Cawl was in part showing off, in part improving past designs when he created the new lines of vehicles.

Cawl used a combination of recovered STC blueprints, Martian tech and his own ingenuity to create the new Vehicles and weapons. His designs are still not up to scratch with what the Emperor designed for the Custodes - they have access to far more sleek, elegant and capable, Grav tanks that can no longer be manufactured. That being said, I'm sure Cawl can replicate them if he got his hands on some.

But how dies that prove Cawl didn’t look at land speeders and decide to make improvements?

[Ishagu]

The Repulsor tech is at best a sideways step in terms of Technology. He didn't improve existing anti-grav STC templates.

[Snazzy]

 

Of course, I agree that 40k shouldn't simply have been Star Wars in 30k. But throughout earlier editions, particularly Imperial Armours, there was tantalizing in-universe speculation -entire armies with Leman Russ Executioners as the standard tank, usage of Abhumans and hover technologies, etc. Very 40k tech, but undoubtedly different in design, composition and usage to the late 41st.

 

I think I'm influenced a lot by the artwork we had of 30k pre-BL HH series, such as all the artwork for the HH CCG and the first Collected Visions - those images show an art-deco leaning in many of their compositions. In addition, Blanche's work are ambiguous in their point of view and objectivity, arguably being just as much an in-universe 41st millennium/fever-dream depiction of the GC/HH, and thus a severely subjective and 41st millennium-colored view of how those 30k actually was.

 

 

I'd be careful with Visions of Heresy, because it is a product of it's time.  There are many different artistic visions (no pun) in that book that can give you an incorrect impression of what 30K "was". One of the most sore for me is the gray Sons of Horus scheme that is sometimes there, and other times green.  John Blanche's artwork also features heavily in that book, so it is hard to say that his artwork is not representative of the era, considering his position and influence on the entire setting.  Blanche's depictions of the Legions and their Primarchs are the basis for their models.

 

 

 

And yes, while the Custodes do fulfill much of the design features I'd like to see in 30k compared to 40k, it doesn't mean I still wouldn't like more of that influence in the 30k aesthetic to personify each period. The Deimos Predator, with its circular turret/sponsons/side hatches is an excellent example of injecting some art-deco into a design while still keeping it industrial and recognizable to WH40k; unlike say the Sicarian, which does nothing with its visuals to echo or signal its belonging to a more progressive, WH30k period apart from the afterthought of circular sponsons. The RT concepts they've reintroduced into Heresy I actually find are the best at communicating they are non-41st millennium designs (archaic weapons, circular sponsons/doors/turrets, rounded-off more-upright dreadnoughts, etc.)

 

Anyways, back to topic - imo nothing justifies the hover-designs proliferating in 40k from a faction-design standpoint apart from the money to be made from these new models.

 

 

I guess this is kind of subjective.  To me, Deimos are more of a play to nostalgia, which is in effect a cash grab.  Not that i resent it.  Take my money, Forgeworld.

 

I also think it is fair to say the Rhino and Land Raider chasis have been exhausted after almost 20 years.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Snazzy

[War Angel]

The Repulsor tech is at best a sideways step in terms of Technology. He didn't improve existing anti-grav STC templates.

Just because he didn’t use existing STC doesn’t mean he wasn’t inspired by it, or some lesser version of inspired.