Best melee weapons for Astartes

[Medicinal Carrots]

Power Axes looking mean.

Axes are now in an odd spot. The only targets they're the best 5 point power weapon against are T5. The lightning claw is superior to the axe against almost every other target.

 

The lightning claw is the best weapon regardless of armor save against T3 and T7. It's the best against T4 with a 5+ or worse, and 2nd best against T4 with a 4+ or better. It's best against T6 except for a 6+ save, where it's 2nd to the maul. It's bad against T5 and T8.

 

The axe is best against anything T5, but doesn't shine against anything else. Axe is 2nd best against anything T3, and tied for 2nd best with the sword against T4 with a 5+ or worse. It's generally bad against T6 and T7.

 

The sword is best against a 2+ save for anything with T3, T4, or T5. It's best against T4 with a 4+ or better, and ties the axe for 2nd against T4 with a 5+ or worse. It's the best against T8

 

The maul is generally the worst of the lot if it goes to S+3 AP-1. It's best against T6 with a 5+ or worse, 2nd best against T6 with a 3+ or 4+. It's best against T5 with a 6+, and 2nd best against T7 with a 4+ or worse. Otherwise it's bad

 

Against something with an invuln, the Axe and Maul win against T5, Maul against T6, and Sword against T8. Otherwise the Lightning Claw is best.

 

TL;DR: Take the Axe if you plan to face T5, the Sword if you're facing marines, or the Lightning Claw against everything else.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Anything that only does 1D is meh imo .

[Lemondish]

Anything that only does 1D is meh imo .

Unlike ranged weapons, the profile of melee weapons does not give insight into the number of attacks, so this is just a silly thing to say.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think most here know that. A lot or units with a single wound per model don’t have a good save. The big nasty stuff with multiple wounds, high toughness and great saves are going to laugh at a power sword. I take you don’t use a lot of melee units... right ? Edited August 26, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Stupidity]

Black Blow Fly isn't wrong.

GW seems to vastly undervalue multiple damage weapons. For some crazy reason they think it is of equal value with +1 attack. Just look at double lightning claws vs single. Even before the double wound marine meta this was absurd. Now it's just silly.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah is looking like SM will have the option to run all units with 3W per model in army with the coming of heavy intercessors.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I think most here know that. A lot or units with a single wound per model don’t have a good save. The big nasty stuff with multiple wounds, high toughness and great saves are going to laugh at a power sword. I take you don’t use a lot of melee units... right ?

 

 

Bloodletters: A unit armed only with power swords who carry an entire faction army by themselves. 

 

Please avoid pointing out people's ignorance when you have no idea what you're talking about. Bloodletters and Genestealers tend to be able to tear apart units like Daemon Princes, tanks, and even the odd knight just by dent of having a ridiculous number of mostly damage 1 attacks. In the case of Bloodletters they will get damage 2 from 6+ to wound, but the only time that will really effect the outcome is when they're kneecapping said knight.

 

Hell. If you can get all 30 boyz of an Ork team in on a tank you can choppa it to death with warpath and reroll wounds.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s one unit - that’s right just one and they die to a breeze. It’s really easy to handle them as well using screens. Bloodletters getting 2D on 6s goes beyond the topic of this conversation as well... well maybe you could make a case for Scars and if you want to run a squad of terminators all armed with power swords go right ahead. But comparing Bloodletters to Space Marines is case of apples and oranges .

 

Also currently ninth edition is not horde friendly either.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[War Angel]

20 power swords in a blob are good. No space Marine unit can have 20 power swords.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Even if you could would really wanna ?

[Stupidity]

The problem with assigning a value to 1d weapons is that you are forced to take a lot of d1 weapons in every army. Every troop and vehicle come with a bunch of them. No space marine army for example ever ever lacks for d1 weapons. This makes every army at least ok at killing w1 troops. Even if they don't want to be.

Maybe it's because I play Necron/Sneaky Beakies, but it seems like a real struggle to fit anti vehicle and elite weapons into an army of mostly anti troop weapons. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Stupidity

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

20 power swords in a blob are good. No space Marine unit can have 20 power swords.

 

 

The question isn't how many swords, its how many attacks. In the case of space marines, a 10 man unit of terminators with claws will have 41 attacks on the charge. That is the same number as a 20 man hoard of bloodletters. 

 

A squad of 10 jump pack vets with power swords will have 31 attacks on the charge before any faction specific buffs.

 

Both are excellent marine killers, passable tank killers (the claws being better for it), and shred the same sort of things Bloodletters are hyper efficient at killing. And, in the case of both SM units, being more survivable. The vanguard unit with swords could even take storm bolters or meltas if they so chose. 

 

But most importantly, they're solid melee units that share similarities with Bloodletter damage output while being 1 damage. Black Blow Fly's sweeping claim was inaccurate and got on my nerves, so I corrected him.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is vacuum hammer nobody who plays competitively is going run squads up to 10 terminators or VV with power swords.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Blindhamster]

This is vacuum hammer nobody who plays competitively is going run squads up to 10 terminators or VV with power swords.

i would because i think swords are cool and fists and hammers look pretty dumb :D

 

They might not be the best, but they wouldn't suck.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s not competitive is the point.

[Blindhamster]

It’s not competitive is the point.

competitive != just the "best" option.

 

It also depends on the unit, the chapter, the intended use of the model etc. multi damage weapons cost more points, for example.. death company can in theory have every model be equipped with thunder hammers. People don't do that. It's too expensive and really not worth it. Instead they might take a couple of thunder hammers depending on the intended use for the squad. The reason for that, is the sheer volume of attacks.

 

10 Blood Angels Vanguard vets with power swords would have 31 attacks on the charge or 41 attacks on the charge if its turn three or later. 41 attacks that will wound other marines on 3s and would toughness 5-7 on 4s and will in most cases flat out ignore armour (AP-4 in turn 3). That's typically plenty to get a job done and means you don't need to over invest points in the unit.

 

(think the above is going to be 22 wounds on a unit with 3+ saves and no invulnerable... i.e. it wipes a squad of marines on average.... or 5 aggressors)

 

I get what you mean, but i'm in agreement with Frater above and simply don't agree with your statement.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Blindhamster

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Blindhammer one question - are you going to run ten VV all armed with swords ? A simple yes or no will suffice mate .

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is how I rank melee weapons for Space Marine units that have general access to them:

 

Thunderhammer

Chainfist/Powerfist

Master Crafted Power Sword

Power Axe

Lightning Claw

Power Sword

Astartes Chainsword

 

Please stick to what loyalist Astartes can use and no relic weapons.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How do you arm your Marines for close combats ?

 

some comments:

 

this was split off from a discussion in N&R

 

does it really matter if a daemon player can horde up Bloodletters - I suppose BA players can rock a max out DC squad all with power swords but I’ve never seen anyone do it - would you even consider it

Edited August 27, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[chapter master 454]

Huh, who snipped this in here...I know Blow said he was going to make one but this is pretty neat.

 

As for best melee, that depends on your preferred method of warfare really. Some prefer mercing infantry en mass with bolter fire and flamer fire of the fire variety then follow up with chip-chop off to the body shop for tanks in melee while some like me prefer to handle heavy duty lifting at a distance and then get down to brass knuckles in trenches for the infantry (much more fun having a punch-up on an objective imo).

 

In that regard, the choice of melee weapon depends on position. A lot to be said for the ancient techniques of yore of "Crouching Sergeant, Hidden Power Fist" or sneaking a power sword onto the rogue sergeant or two that lets a squad be something you can't mess with (in fact, orks have maintained the tradition with their Nobz and power klaws). A power sword is quite scary as in any melee is can be a difference maker, killing those extra models needed to clear a space and movement is key in 9th. Similarly having a power fist (with damage 2) makes even a dreadnought need to think about life choices and whether it is worth it. Damage 2 isn't a joke (that weapon effectively treats most dreadnoughts as having 4 wounds really).

 

In terms of Vanguard Vets it can vary. Power Sword vets are cheap, cheerful and are quite choppy if paired with a chainsword (especially now with the buff to astartes chainswords) and will not only mincemeat elite troops but also chaff fairly quickly.

 

In fact, the best melee weapon we have now is actually the Chainsword if we are going for overall best. AP1 and an extra attack can be paired onto any marine and make them a formidable force to be reckoned with. Power fist? Take a chainsword to use ether at the same time or even to use instead while being near no cost (no ranged option at that point). Thunder hammer is the same.

 

However when talking the different variants it gets muddy. Sadly it can be hard to extrapolate any meaningful data here however I will say that if the vets are going to tussle, the Maul is likely the best choice overall. AP1 means against elites who have invulnerables, the means the AP isn't wasted as most such units only have an invulnerable 1 worse than their save with few exceptions. This then means the extra strength is better as it lets them smack even higher toughness targets with impunity though the axe would likely win out vs. toughness 8 tanks.

The big deal however is the rather sensual, the ever desirable, never caught off guard, bed-rocking beauties that are lightning claws (you all know they are the coolest melee weapon in 40k!). Really these things are work-horses that because of their re-roll to wound effectively have something better than being AP3, as because of mathhammer, having a raw re-roll is statistically better than having a one better chance to succeed (except when needing a 6, a 5+ is still better by itself than needing a 6 with full re-roll). Thus lightning claws could be seen as having AP3.5, better than AP3 but worse than AP4 but then again better than that because it won't or rarely overkill on AP use and wounding rolls.

In fact, just getting to strength 5 with lightning claws would likely make them even better than you could reckon.

And you can pair them to get +1 attack but...not sure of the value there. Really the massive discount is the only reason its viable.

 

But if I were asked what the best melee weapon marines have is? Our new chainswords hands down. May not be tank busters but they'll kick the can out of most targets fairly well because AP1 is rarely if ever wasted and they give you more attacks.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

My current pick for best melee weapon sits between Power Sword and Astartes Chainsword as well. Playing Black Templars tips me somewhat in that direction, allowing me to give a unit +1 additional attack on the charge as well as 6+ to hit auto wounding and the ability to put one unit into the Assault Doctrine for the extra -1 AP. This puts power Swords in the interesting position of being AP -4 and auto wounding 1/6th of the time. If I then stack the other army support I have on top of this, I can turn 10 Vanguard Vets into a neat little wrecking ball that draws quite a bit of my opponent's attention turns 1 and 2.

 

Once we get Astartes chainswords they'll be -2 AP and +1 attack in the Assault Doctrine, really cementing them as the best weapon for their cost. As for hammers? They're alright, but only to give to Vanguard or Terminator SGTs. 40 points is way too expensive for what they bring to the table. Normally, characters in my lists tend to get either a Relic Blade or an actual SM Relic, as I just don't much like the look of Power Fists on anything smaller than a Terminator.

[The Unseen]

Chainswords are looking by far like the most efficient choice.

+1 attack and -1 AP is crazy good for a free weapon. (Assuming they remain free, or at least cheaper than a power weapon).

I'm just so happy I could cry though, that power swords for BA sergeants are the way to go, and mine are all modeled that way for cool factor.

Str5 is the sweet spot for Red Thirst, as you then wound normal infantry on 2s, T5 on 3s, and anything else on 4s. (Well, unless you plop a bastion down or something)

 

BA bladeguard look absolutely murderous

 

But for Death Company, it probably will still be Chainswords with a sprinkling of fists/hammers depending on points just for not getting bogged down killing a vehicle or similar big fella.

 

Curious to see how the fist and T-hammer end up points lol.

I don't see fists being 10 pts for flat 2 and hammers staying at 15 for flat 4

Plus expecting to see 60 pt hammers for characters lolz.

 

The *best* weapon for anything with a decent number of starting attacks will clearly be the T-hammer just because its 4 flat damage which is crazy, unless it costs as much as 2 guys with fists.

 

Though GW could suprise us with a unique rule like old school unwieldy, like making a hammer always swing last or something and therefore keep the pts down and make the traditional users of hammers in assault termies the only thing that really wants them, because they can survive long enough to swing.

 

I think chainfists are very very rarely going to be better than fists except against 2+ saves without an invuln, so... land raiders?

That extra AP just isnt worth trading the flat 2 damage away.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Damage 1 is for chipping at best versus hard enemy units. No one would ever arm a smash captain with a chain sword. If you look at a typical list how many units are viable that can spam chain swords? With the new profile for Incursors they can be much more prolific in terms of sheer numbers you can put on the table. If you watch video batrep should you’ll notice players are bringing lots of hardened units like plague burst crawlers and talos... good luck chipping those nasties down. Terminators are going to be making a comeback as well so AP1 is not a big deal for them. We don’t need AP1 1D to deal with chaff either.

[XeonDragon]

So I think a good way of looking at the value ‘add’ of the weapons is to look at how much damage output it will add to a model for its points. I did a little table comparing the average damage inflicted by the weapons below to GEQ, MEQ and VEQ. I results are the average of those results, expressed in points per point of damage inflicted (PPD). That is, the lower the better. For it to work, zero-point options such as chain swords were costed at 1 point.

 

In working out the figures I assumed 3 base attacks, and the only modifies to strength, AP, attacks are what is listed on the weapon profile. That is, no doctrines and no other buffs (e.g. from shock assault, re-rolls, chaplains etc.).

 

So, this is what I got, from most efficient (lowest PPD), updated after +Medicinal Carrots spotted an error with his carrot-enhanced vision :D

1. Astartes Chain sword: 1.48 PPD
2. Regular chain sword: 2.16 PPD
3. Power fist: 4.93 PPD
4. Thunder Hammer: 5.26 PPD
5. Lightning claws: 5.62 PPD
6. Power Sword: 6.25 PPD
7. Power Axe: 6.88 PPD
8. Power Maul: 8.70 PPD

Obviously, not all melee weapons are on that list. Also, as it is a ‘basket’ in that it averages damage to GEQ, MEQ and VEQ targets, it doesn’t capture the usefulness of certain weapons against certain targets. The result may be different if KEQ or TEQ were added in.

 

So yeah, based on this in terms of point efficiency the chain swords are the go-to option. Power Mauls surprised me, and power fists, thunder hammers and lightening claws are OK-ish. Power swords (normal) and power axes are over-costed for overall efficiency IMHO.

Edited August 27, 2020 by XeonDragon

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What stats did you use for Meq, Gec and VEQ? Why didn’t you consider doing the results for Teq? Not trying to shoot holes through your results but I just think five terminators armed with thunder hammers would do more damage to a Knight than if they had say power swords.