Defensible Terrain and Overwatch

[ValourousHeart]

is Sacred Rose a decent order? It seems sub-par compared to the others, especially considering Overwatch is now stratagem-activated.

 

 

If you take a look at page 227 Overwatch, the paragraph starts off with "Certain rules enables units to fire overwatch..."

If the stratagem is the only way to activate overwatch, why would GW use the plural form here?

Surely they would have just used the singular form and even reference the stratagem.

But they didn't... they used the plural form and didn't mention the stratagem.

 

 

In the inital preview they mentioned 3 ways that a unit could fire overwatch.

The Fire Overwatch stratagem is located on page 255, and references back to page 227.

The Crusade battle honor for other units (Not available to Characters, Monsters or Vehicles) also references back to page 227.

And Tau which will be addressed in their own codex and FAQ.

But no claim was made that those 3 options were the only ways to gain overwatch even within the basic rules.

 

 

Page 262 Defensible Terrain.

Defensible terrain allows you to select Infantry Units wholly with the terrain to either Hold Steady or Set to Defend.

The Hold Steady rule references back page 227, just like all of the other rules that discuss overwatch.

And like those other rules, none of them mention page 255 or the stratagem at all.

Which indicates that those other rules referencing page 227 are not dependent on the stratagem on page 255 as the trigger.

 

The Hold Steady rule also doesn't put any limitation on the number of units that can be placed on Hold Steady.

There appears to be an assumption made by the internet from a time before we had the full context of the rules, that since there was a stratagem called Fire Overwatch then the only way to fire overwatch was with the stratagem.

 

The limitations for Hold Steady and Set to Defend is that (1) it must be an infantry unit, (2) it must be wholly within Defensible Terrain, and (3) the unit cannot be within engagement range.

 

 

This follows the initial preview where they mentioned that Overwatch in 9th would be much more limited than in 8th.

It is going to be difficult to define a more limited use than Infantry Units Wholly Within Defensible Terrain, not within Engagement Range, who have been selected to Hold Steady, and then subsequently charged when discussing how limited firing overwatch in 9th will be.

 

 

However this does bring up an interesting opportunity with the new chapter approved books announced this past Saturday.

One of the books is for matched / tournament play and covers the topic of players being required to bring terrain with them to the game / tournament.

The opportunity to build themed terrain pieces that look like what your troops would be fighting over / defending.

But they also mentioned that you would get to define what terrain tags those terrain pieces would have that best suited your army.

 

 

So when you think about how all of those pieces fit together, you get some interesting lists that play exactly how you would expect them to play.

Imagine an Imperial Guard army built around a large trench network.

You'd expect them to dig in and keep firing until the end.

Edited August 27, 2020 by ValourousHeart

[9x19 Parabellum]

I've read this twice now and sadly, I don't understand what you're talking about or what point you're trying to make.

 

There's nothing about the Sacred Rose's Orderly rule that suggests an inherently new trigger by which to claim the opportunity to fire overwatch. 

 

Are you suggesting that there's some piece of terrain that a player can bring in order to get more opportunities for the overwatch rule?  If that's the argument I would only respond that has nothing really to do with Sacred Rose if everyone can bring it.

[ValourousHeart]

I never said Sacred Rose was the trigger.  Defensible terrain - Hold Steady is the trigger.  I was addressing your claim that the only way to overwatch had to be with the stratagem.  That isn't correct.

 

 

Sure everyone can bring it.  But certain armies are better at certain strategies and play styles.  Dark Angels could build an army around Assault Marines, but that same list would be better with Blood Angels.  So it isn't about which armies could bring it, it is about which players will bring it.

[BluejayJunior]

I never said Sacred Rose was the trigger.  Defensible terrain - Hold Steady is the trigger.  I was addressing your claim that the only way to overwatch had to be with the stratagem.  That isn't correct.

 

Hold Steady does not allow you to fire overwatch for free. As of right now, the stratagem is the only way to fire overwatch (except for Tau). GW has said that certain units will have rules that allow them to fire overwatch in the new codexes. But for right now, it is just the stratagem. 

[ValourousHeart]

 

I never said Sacred Rose was the trigger.  Defensible terrain - Hold Steady is the trigger.  I was addressing your claim that the only way to overwatch had to be with the stratagem.  That isn't correct.

 

Hold Steady does not allow you to fire overwatch for free. As of right now, the stratagem is the only way to fire overwatch (except for Tau). GW has said that certain units will have rules that allow them to fire overwatch in the new codexes. But for right now, it is just the stratagem. 

 

Would you please provide the link to where you saw that GW said that?  I've only heard that claim made by players, but nothing from GW, like one of their podcasts, previews, WHC articles, white dwarf articles, FAQ, errata, etc.

[Purifying Tempest]

I'm pretty sure I read someplace, possibly with the T'au preview, that abilities that enhance overwatch do not on their own enable it. The big discussion was greater good and sept choice.

 

In order to get enhanced overwatch you need some way to enable it.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

I never said Sacred Rose was the trigger.  Defensible terrain - Hold Steady is the trigger.  I was addressing your claim that the only way to overwatch had to be with the stratagem.  That isn't correct.

 

Hold Steady does not allow you to fire overwatch for free. As of right now, the stratagem is the only way to fire overwatch (except for Tau). GW has said that certain units will have rules that allow them to fire overwatch in the new codexes. But for right now, it is just the stratagem. 

 

Would you please provide the link to where you saw that GW said that?  I've only heard that claim made by players, but nothing from GW, like one of their podcasts, previews, WHC articles, white dwarf articles, FAQ, errata, etc.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/17/overwatch-overhaulgw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-2/

 

This post says, "Your ice-cold veterans are having NONE of that enemy charge! Free Overwatch attacks like this are few and far between, but they’re worth seeking out because they don’t prevent you from using the Stratagem in the same phase." While it is talking about the Crusade bonus, it does mention multiple ways to get free Overwatch. 

Stu Black also mentioned in one of the live streams for the new edition. Likely the one corresponding to this article, but I can't remember for sure. 

[ValourousHeart]

I'm pretty sure I read someplace, possibly with the T'au preview, that abilities that enhance overwatch do not on their own enable it. The big discussion was greater good and sept choice.

 

In order to get enhanced overwatch you need some way to enable it.

 

Ok, that article.  With For The Greater Good, Tau units are able to fire overwatch any time they are charged, with restrictions listed in their FAQ, without using the stratagem.

 

If nothing else is affecting the non-tau unit, then I agree with you that you would have to use the stratagem.  However something else is affecting the unit... they are in terrain which gives the unit extra abilities or bonuses.  In the same way that light and heavy cover give you a save bonus or inspiring gives you a leadership bonus.  You don't get those bonuses normally, you have to be under the affect of the terrain piece. 

 

What I was hoping you would point to was something that at least mentioned Defensible Terrain.

[Purifying Tempest]

Yes, one of the best unit traits in Crusade allows you to always Overwatch, and do so on a 5+.  It doesn't not simply say "Hits in Overwatch on a 5+ instead of only unmodified 6s."

 

Interesting language in that, too, as it changes it from "Unmodified" rolls to "Quantity+" rolls... would that technically mean now that things like Prescience, which add 1 to hit rolls, would work for things that say "Overwatch on 5+", allowing Overwatch hits on 4+?  Not sure if it was intended, but sure seems to work that way   Not that this REALLY affects Adepta Sororitas at all, though.

 

Grrr...  it ate my edit.

 

So... long story short:

 

Hold Steady has the following language:

 

"Any Overwatch attacks made by the unit this phase will score a hit on..." it goes on to basically say 5+ instead of unmodified 6s.  It also references p.227, which is the Overwatch page.

 

The Overwatch section starts off with:  "Certain rules enable".  So it explains what Overwatch is, but clarifies that "certain rules" enable it without clarifying what those rules are, specifically.

 

The 9th Codex (edit: Core Rulebook) seems to be worded very restrictively instead of the permissive language used in previous editions.  To clarify, that means: "You cannot do that unless I say you can..." style of language.

 

In this case, you are permitted to hit on 5+ instead of unmodified 6s, but you MAY NOT fire until you leverage "certain rules" to unlock the opportunity to Overwatch.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Purifying Tempest

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

 

I never said Sacred Rose was the trigger.  Defensible terrain - Hold Steady is the trigger.  I was addressing your claim that the only way to overwatch had to be with the stratagem.  That isn't correct.

 

Hold Steady does not allow you to fire overwatch for free. As of right now, the stratagem is the only way to fire overwatch (except for Tau). GW has said that certain units will have rules that allow them to fire overwatch in the new codexes. But for right now, it is just the stratagem. 

 

Would you please provide the link to where you saw that GW said that?  I've only heard that claim made by players, but nothing from GW, like one of their podcasts, previews, WHC articles, white dwarf articles, FAQ, errata, etc.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/17/overwatch-overhaulgw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-2/

 

This post says, "Your ice-cold veterans are having NONE of that enemy charge! Free Overwatch attacks like this are few and far between, but they’re worth seeking out because they don’t prevent you from using the Stratagem in the same phase." While it is talking about the Crusade bonus, it does mention multiple ways to get free Overwatch. 

Stu Black also mentioned in one of the live streams for the new edition. Likely the one corresponding to this article, but I can't remember for sure. 

 

Yes but that article doesn't say that Hold Steady requires the stratagem to activate it.

 

And in the paragraph right before the one you quoted, which is right after where it mentions Defensible Terrain it says - "when facing a gunline unit that's dug into some solid terrain, this crucial boost can make your opponent think twice."

 

So I read that CRUCIAL BOOST is that infantry in defensible terrain who Hold Steady get to fire overwatch (for free), and IMO that would make your opponent think twice.  If they can't shoot overwatch without the stratagem, there would be no reason for your opponent to think twice.  Sure 5+ is slightly better than 6+, but not really a reason to take pause.  It is the fact that they are going to be firing overwatch plus which ever unit uses the stratagem is what will be the issue of concern.

 

it also puts the crusade bonus in context of why they like it best.  Defensible terrain gives infantry units who hold steady overwatch on 5+, but you have to be in the terrain.  Tau give overwatch to most all of their units on a 6+ regardless of where they are on the table, but could also benefit from things like defensible terrain or the crusade bonus.  The crusade bonus gives any unit that is not a character, vehicle or monster the benefit of 5+ overwatch without a requirement to be in specific terrain or be Tau.

[BluejayJunior]

The rule for Defensible trait says, "If a unit Holds Steady, any Overwatch attacks made by that unit this phase will score hits on rolls of 5+."

 

The rules of Overwatch say, "Certain rules enable units to fire Overwatch at an enemy unit before it can charge. If an enemy unit declares a charge that targets one or more units from your army that have such a rule, each of those units can fire Overwatch before the charge roll is made."

 

You cannot fire Overwatch unless something explicitly tells you that you can, like the Overwatch stratagem. Hold Steady does not say that it allows you to fire Overwatch, just that you get a bonus for any Overwatch attacks. 

 

 

So I read that CRUCIAL BOOST is that infantry in defensible terrain who Hold Steady get to fire overwatch (for free), and IMO that would make your opponent think twice.  If they can't shoot overwatch without the stratagem, there would be no reason for your opponent to think twice.  Sure 5+ is slightly better than 6+, but not really a reason to take pause.  It is the fact that they are going to be firing overwatch plus which ever unit uses the stratagem is what will be the issue of concern.

 

 

 

Do you have any rules reference to support this?

[ValourousHeart]

Yes, one of the best unit traits in Crusade allows you to always Overwatch, and do so on a 5+.  It doesn't not simply say "Hits in Overwatch on a 5+ instead of only unmodified 6s."

 

Interesting language in that, too, as it changes it from "Unmodified" rolls to "Quantity+" rolls... would that technically mean now that things like Prescience, which add 1 to hit rolls, would work for things that say "Overwatch on 5+", allowing Overwatch hits on 4+?  Not sure if it was intended, but sure seems to work that way   Not that this REALLY affects Adepta Sororitas at all, though.

 

Grrr...  it ate my edit.

 

So... long story short:

 

Hold Steady has the following language:

 

"Any Overwatch attacks made by the unit this phase will score a hit on..." it goes on to basically say 5+ instead of unmodified 6s.  It also references p.227, which is the Overwatch page.

 

The Overwatch section starts off with:  "Certain rules enable".  So it explains what Overwatch is, but clarifies that "certain rules" enable it without clarifying what those rules are, specifically.

 

The 9th Codex (edit: Core Rulebook) seems to be worded very restrictively instead of the permissive language used in previous editions.  To clarify, that means: "You cannot do that unless I say you can..." style of language.

 

In this case, you are permitted to hit on 5+ instead of unmodified 6s, but you MAY NOT fire until you leverage "certain rules" to unlock the opportunity to Overwatch.

 

You seem to be including a lot of assumptions and interpretations in to your answer.

 

First off overwatch on 4+ is no where in the text.  Overwatch on page 227 says unmodified roll.  Things like Hold Steady and the Crusade bonus change the target of roll, but they don't say anything about changing the unmodified aspect.

 

Also you stated overwatch says "certain rules" but doesn't clarify which rules.  So are you assuming which rules are "certain rules" by working backward from your starting assumptions.

 

What I'm doing is simply taking any rule that references back to page 227 as one of the "certain rules".

Edited August 28, 2020 by toaae
cleaning up from AS forum

[ValourousHeart]

The rule for Defensible trait says, "If a unit Holds Steady, any Overwatch (page 227) attacks made by that unit this phase will score hits on rolls of 5+."

 

I added the page reference that is part of the text.

 

"If" in that statement is referencing the choice between Hold Steady and Set to Defend.  It is not referring to "If you are allowed to fire overwatch".  I hope we both agree on that.

 

I think that the page reference is important.  If, as you contend, GW intended that you had to use the stratagem to activate Hold Steady, then why did they not reference back to the stratagem?

 

 

You cannot fire Overwatch unless something explicitly tells you that you can, like the Overwatch stratagem. Hold Steady does not say that it allows you to fire Overwatch, just that you get a bonus for any Overwatch attacks. 

 

This is the point we are arguing.  I'm saying that Hold Steady is a rule that allows you to overwatch, you are saying it doesn't.  Simply restating your point isn't a counter argument.  I understand that you disagree with me.

 

 

 

 

So I read that CRUCIAL BOOST is that infantry in defensible terrain who Hold Steady get to fire overwatch (for free), and IMO that would make your opponent think twice.  If they can't shoot overwatch without the stratagem, there would be no reason for your opponent to think twice.  Sure 5+ is slightly better than 6+, but not really a reason to take pause.  It is the fact that they are going to be firing overwatch plus which ever unit uses the stratagem is what will be the issue of concern.

Do you have any rules reference to support this?

 

"Crucial boost" isn't in the rules.  It was an opinion given in a WHC article about the effect of Hold Steady.  What you quoted there is my opinion on their opinion.

 

What do you think they meant by "Crucial Boost"?  If you can not fire overwatch, does it really matter if you would have needed to roll a 6+ or a 5+?

 

In my opinion the opportunity to act is a greater boost over not being able to act, than a minor improvement to the chance to be successful in that act that you might not be able to attempt.

[BluejayJunior]

 

The rule for Defensible trait says, "If a unit Holds Steady, any Overwatch (page 227) attacks made by that unit this phase will score hits on rolls of 5+."

 

I added the page reference that is part of the text.

 

"If" in that statement is referencing the choice between Hold Steady and Set to Defend.  It is not referring to "If you are allowed to fire overwatch".  I hope we both agree on that.

 

I think that the page reference is important.  If, as you contend, GW intended that you had to use the stratagem to activate Hold Steady, then why did they not reference back to the stratagem?

 

Because there are other ways to use Overwatch besides the stratagem, like for the Greater Good or the previously mentioned Crusade bonus. And I assume there will be other stratagems/abilities/etc. that will allow you to use Overwatch without using the core stratagem. 

 

Looking at the 2 rules that we know allow you to Overwatch without the stratagem (Greater Good and Cool-Headed trait), both explicitly say that they allow you to fire Overwatch when declared as a charge target. The rules for the Defensible trait with Hold Steady, do not say that. The rule simply gives a page number to reference the rules for Overwatch in the text, so you can look up rules for Overwatch.

 

 

 

 

Also you stated overwatch says "certain rules" but doesn't clarify which rules.  So are you assuming which rules are "certain rules" by working backward from your starting assumptions.

 

What I'm doing is simply taking any rule that references back to page 227 as one of the "certain rules".

 

 

This is faulty reasoning. You are inferring something from the rules that it doesn't say. The Core Rulebook doesn't clarify which rules allow Overwatch because those rules will be located where they are printed. As pointed out above, the rules that allow Overwatch explicitly say that they do. A page reference to the Overwatch rules does not mean that it allows you to Overwatch. You will find page numbers listed after mentions of unit coherency or engagement range where the appear in other rules as well. This is simply to make it easier to cross reference rules when they come up during reading. 

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

If Defensible terrain unlocked the ability to make overwatch attacks it would say so very clearly. The language would be something along the lines of:

 

If an infantry unit on or wholly within this terrain piece is chosen as the target of a charge, it may fire overwatch, and when doing so hits on a roll of 5 or 6.

 

The fact that it references back to when Overwatch can be taken without making any attempt to clarify otherwise further supports the reading Bluejay has been giving you. It's pretty cut and dry.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Dam13n
Unnecessary comment removed.

[Spinsanity]

I too find ValorousHeart’s reading to be very biased; youmre fishing for a way to benefit from Defensible Terrain.

 

The Defensible rule doesn’t say you can overwatch, it just says you hit of 5+ when you do so. Look at the wording on the Fire Overwatch for an example of how “a unit can fire Overwatch” gets to be worded.

[ValourousHeart]

I too find ValorousHeart’s reading to be very biased; youmre fishing for a way to benefit from Defensible Terrain.

 

The Defensible rule doesn’t say you can overwatch, it just says you hit of 5+ when you do so. Look at the wording on the Fire Overwatch for an example of how “a unit can fire Overwatch” gets to be worded.

 

LOL!!!  If you have seen my collection, you would realize how dumb your claim is.  I have not run any troops choices at all since the start of 4rd edition.  And I have barely run any infantry since then either.

 

I'm actually looking for things to defend against.  Giving my opponents the most advantage possible against me.

 

I also like seeing tables with nice looking terrain, instead of those garbage L and T crap.  So if I convince more people of the value of terrain I might not have to see ugly tables any more.

[Dam13n]

Try to keep this a rules discussion from here on please. If this drifts any more off-topic, actions will be taken to correct it.

[Cheex]

 

The rule for Defensible trait says, "If a unit Holds Steady, any Overwatch (page 227) attacks made by that unit this phase will score hits on rolls of 5+."

 

I added the page reference that is part of the text.

 

"If" in that statement is referencing the choice between Hold Steady and Set to Defend.  It is not referring to "If you are allowed to fire overwatch".  I hope we both agree on that.

 

I think that the page reference is important. 

 

 

"...any Overwatch (page 227) attacks made by that unit..." is about as clear as you can get. When you perform an activity, a change to the mechanics applies. Nothing about it grants permission to perform that activity; only that when you do perform it, you change something about it.

 

It refers to the page where Overwatch mechanics are defined, because that's the mechanic it is modifying. Specifically, it modifies the To Hit roll required. It never removes the requirement to need permission, nor does it grant permission.

 

It would not refer to the Fire Overwatch stratagem because it's not modifying now the stratagem works. The Fire Overwatch stratagem never mentions the To Hit roll, so why would the Defensible Terrain rule reference it?

 

If, as you contend, GW intended that you had to use the stratagem to activate Hold Steady, then why did they not reference back to the stratagem?

 

 

Easy: GW does not intend that at all. There is already at least one other rule that permits Overwatch (Ultramarine stratagem erratum, Defensive Focus), and it leaves the rule open in case they release future rules that grant similar permission.

 

 

You cannot fire Overwatch unless something explicitly tells you that you can, like the Overwatch stratagem. Hold Steady does not say that it allows you to fire Overwatch, just that you get a bonus for any Overwatch attacks.

 

This is the point we are arguing.  I'm saying that Hold Steady is a rule that allows you to overwatch, you are saying it doesn't.  Simply restating your point isn't a counter argument.  I understand that you disagree with me.

 

The onus is on you to prove the affirmative. Nothing about holding steady states that the unit has permission to fire overwatch; it just says that in the event that the unit does, then the way it does so is dfferent.

 

 

 

"Crucial boost" isn't in the rules.  It was an opinion given in a WHC article about the effect of Hold Steady.  What you quoted there is my opinion on their opinion.

 

What do you think they meant by "Crucial Boost"?  If you can not fire overwatch, does it really matter if you would have needed to roll a 6+ or a 5+?

 

In my opinion the opportunity to act is a greater boost over not being able to act, than a minor improvement to the chance to be successful in that act that you might not be able to attempt.

 

Going from an unmodified 6 to a 5+ literally doubles your probability of the hit succeeding. That could very well be crucial.

 

In any case, it's irrelevant. The WHC article is simply marketing hype and has no bearing on rules discussions.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

You cannot fire Overwatch unless something explicitly tells you that you can, like the Overwatch stratagem. Hold Steady does not say that it allows you to fire Overwatch, just that you get a bonus for any Overwatch attacks.

 

This is the point we are arguing.  I'm saying that Hold Steady is a rule that allows you to overwatch, you are saying it doesn't.  Simply restating your point isn't a counter argument.  I understand that you disagree with me.

 

The onus is on you to prove the affirmative. Nothing about holding steady states that the unit has permission to fire overwatch; it just says that in the event that the unit does, then the way it does so is dfferent.

 

I did provide my reasoning in my initial post, and clarified it in the follow up posts.  Bluejay Junior's reply was the debate equivalent of "Nuh-Uh".  I saw no point in arguing with myself.

 

 

 

 

"Crucial boost" isn't in the rules.  It was an opinion given in a WHC article about the effect of Hold Steady.  What you quoted there is my opinion on their opinion.

 

What do you think they meant by "Crucial Boost"?  If you can not fire overwatch, does it really matter if you would have needed to roll a 6+ or a 5+?

 

In my opinion the opportunity to act is a greater boost over not being able to act, than a minor improvement to the chance to be successful in that act that you might not be able to attempt.

 

Going from an unmodified 6 to a 5+ literally doubles your probability of the hit succeeding. That could very well be crucial.

 

Only in the case where they get to fire overwatch.

 

I'm not sure how your game group does it, but where I play when my opponents charges, they generally charge with more than one unit.  So with your interpretation only 1 unit gets to overwatch ever based on match play and the basic rules.  So the second and subsequent units would all have zero chance of the hit succeeding.

 

 

In any case, it's irrelevant. The WHC article is simply marketing hype and has no bearing on rules discussions.

 

Sure they do.  People use them often for clarification on the intention behind a rule.  Just like some of the more popular warhammer sites twist the community perception of the rules by trying to be the first to publish their first impressions that they often don't even read the rules they are commenting on a head of time.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

We should probably close this out. The rule is what it is, and there has been enough evidence put forward at this point to make that clear. Nothing more to be gained by debating it. The OP doesn't have anything to offer other than his or her opinion, and as the OP has stated, that isn't worth much. If this rule really does seem so unclear, I would suggest sending in a request for it to be addressed in the next round of GW FAQs.

[Cheex]

 

 

 

You cannot fire Overwatch unless something explicitly tells you that you can, like the Overwatch stratagem. Hold Steady does not say that it allows you to fire Overwatch, just that you get a bonus for any Overwatch attacks.

 

This is the point we are arguing.  I'm saying that Hold Steady is a rule that allows you to overwatch, you are saying it doesn't.  Simply restating your point isn't a counter argument.  I understand that you disagree with me.

 

 

The onus is on you to prove the affirmative. Nothing about holding steady states that the unit has permission to fire overwatch; it just says that in the event that the unit does, then the way it does so is dfferent.

 

 

I did provide my reasoning in my initial post, and clarified it in the follow up posts.  Bluejay Junior's reply was the debate equivalent of "Nuh-Uh".  I saw no point in arguing with myself.

 

 

I can see your reasoning. It boils down to "Overwatch says there are other rules that permit a unit to fire Overwatch. This other rule references the page Overwatch is listed on, therefore it permits Overwatch. Why would it reference this page if it does not permit Overwatch?"

 

What have I missed? Because that's a huge leap in logic. Permission to use a rule would be phrasing like "this unit may/can fire Overwatch" (see Fire Overwatch stratagem or For the Greater Good erratum) or "this unit fires Overwatch" (see Defensive Focus erratum).

 

 

 

"Crucial boost" isn't in the rules.  It was an opinion given in a WHC article about the effect of Hold Steady.  What you quoted there is my opinion on their opinion.

 

What do you think they meant by "Crucial Boost"?  If you can not fire overwatch, does it really matter if you would have needed to roll a 6+ or a 5+?

 

In my opinion the opportunity to act is a greater boost over not being able to act, than a minor improvement to the chance to be successful in that act that you might not be able to attempt.

 

Going from an unmodified 6 to a 5+ literally doubles your probability of the hit succeeding. That could very well be crucial.

 

 

Only in the case where they get to fire overwatch.

 

I'm not sure how your game group does it, but where I play when my opponents charges, they generally charge with more than one unit.  So with your interpretation only 1 unit gets to overwatch ever based on match play and the basic rules.  So the second and subsequent units would all have zero chance of the hit succeeding.

 

Correct. That's the rules.

 

 

In any case, it's irrelevant. The WHC article is simply marketing hype and has no bearing on rules discussions.

 

Sure they do.  People use them often for clarification on the intention behind a rule.  Just like some of the more popular warhammer sites twist the community perception of the rules by trying to be the first to publish their first impressions that they often don't even read the rules they are commenting on a head of time.

 

Ok, let me rephrase: it has no bearing on what the actual rules are.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

 

You cannot fire Overwatch unless something explicitly tells you that you can, like the Overwatch stratagem. Hold Steady does not say that it allows you to fire Overwatch, just that you get a bonus for any Overwatch attacks.

 

This is the point we are arguing.  I'm saying that Hold Steady is a rule that allows you to overwatch, you are saying it doesn't.  Simply restating your point isn't a counter argument.  I understand that you disagree with me.

 

The onus is on you to prove the affirmative. Nothing about holding steady states that the unit has permission to fire overwatch; it just says that in the event that the unit does, then the way it does so is dfferent.

 

I did provide my reasoning in my initial post, and clarified it in the follow up posts.  Bluejay Junior's reply was the debate equivalent of "Nuh-Uh".  I saw no point in arguing with myself.

 

Wow. My reply was no way near that dismissive or flippant. I literally said that if it allowed you to fire Overwatch, it would say that. That is not just saying, "Nuh-Uh". You have yet to actually point to a rule that actually demonstrates your point, other than a page reference. And if that page reference is as important as you believe, why is that reference not in the app with all the rules? This rule is clear to everyone but you. 

[Dam13n]

And with that, this is done.

As I've said many times before - if you can't play nicely, you don't get to play at all. Also, promoting a circular discussion (one that just repeats itself) is against the rules of the OR (as it's basically spam).

So this thread is hereby locked.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Dam13n