Large units and combat squad or 2x small units?

[Burni]

Am just doing the transfers on my Ultramarines, and was assigning squad numbers. It made me think about combat squads vs separate units. As far as my uncompetitive brain can see, it’s better to have 2 separate units each with a Sgt, than 2 combat squads. It’s costs the same (until you add any Sgt weapons) but you get an extra attack and more leadership.

 

The only benefit I can see is if you are hitting the troop type limit?

 

Am I missing something obvious? Or is separate units always the right choice?

[Lukoi]

Well, another advantage with larger squads is efficiency when adding buff effects, strategems, spells etc.  But if you just needed say 30 Troops of whatever type, might as well just go with 5 packs 6 times, unless you truly tend to operate in larger squads.

 

On firstborn (not super familiar with those, as I've only used scouts from that generation), I believe there are heavy/special weapon options to consider as well.

[Hymnblade]

If you're going to take two 5-man squads, yes, taking two separate units is always better. You get an extra sergeant, and if there are any one-per-squad upgrades, you can take more of those.

 

The advantage of combat squads is that you can do it on the fly, rather than having to decide in the list-building phase. You can bring a unit of 6 Aggressors for efficient buff/stratagem use, then split them up if your opponent has lots of scary blast weapons. Saving force org slots can also be useful.

[Karhedron]

Troop squads are rarely a primary target for stratagems and buffs. So I agree that in general 2 squads of 5 are likely to be better than 1 squad of 10. Small squads are less vulnerable to morale than large ones and are also not penalised by Blast weapons.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

For Incursors and Infiltrators currently the sergeant is not a big deal so I like to run a full squad with the option to split.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Am just doing the transfers on my Ultramarines, and was assigning squad numbers. It made me think about combat squads vs separate units. As far as my uncompetitive brain can see, it’s better to have 2 separate units each with a Sgt, than 2 combat squads. It’s costs the same (until you add any Sgt weapons) but you get an extra attack and more leadership.

 

The only benefit I can see is if you are hitting the troop type limit?

 

Am I missing something obvious? Or is separate units always the right choice?

 

You're right, competitive-wise, you almost always see people taking two minimum squads over one maximum squad. Even more so now that combat squadding costs CP, it used to be free and people still wouldn't do it because you get more sergeants and special weapons with double small squads versus two combat squads. Seems like it's just mostly a fluff rule, or some very unique situations where you may want or be forced to have one big squad but need two small squads for that specific game. It's better that it exists as an option even if you never use it versus not having the option at all.

[Captain Idaho]

Consider if you take 2 units of 5 troops, if you lose 6 models (3 from each) you cannot protect characters from shooting, whereas you need to lose 8 models for that capacity to be lost.

 

Additionally, there are Secondary Objectives that will relate to losing units and your opponent will prefer to kill 2 5 man units to a single 10 man unit in these circumstances.

 

Might not sound like much but these things add up.

 

So my advice is to consider the size of units on their expected roles in your army first before you try to optimise each unit on general principles.

 

If you need a unit to advance up close to the enemy in any form, be it supporting assault elements or taking Objectives, a larger unit will serve you better.

 

If you need a couple of smaller units to hang back or move laterally then that is the way to go.

[The Unseen]

2 units of 5 also are more vulnerable to being shot out of the way of any supporting characters. Have to kill 8 of a 10 man squad, only 6 out of 2 5 man squads to make characters vulnerable behind them.

But in general yes, 2 squads is better than 1 larger one without other circumstances. Assault Intercessors I could see being a troop unit that punches hard enough to make it worth leaving them larger, probably not ten, but 2 squads of 7-8 over 3 squads of 5, because buffing them with characters or strats might be worth it.

[Chaplain Augustus]

Splitting up large units of firstborn marines offers interesting options. It's not possible to put a heavy weapon and a special weapon in a five man squad but if you combat squad you can put a meltagun a multi-melta and a combi-melta in a 5 man squad and go monster hunting while bolters hang back on an objective and support. Of course one could argue there are better choices but combat squads offer flexibility.

[Riddlesworth]

You're right, competitive-wise, you almost always see people taking two minimum squads over one maximum squad. Even more so now that combat squadding costs CP

Rules reference for this please?

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

 

You're right, competitive-wise, you almost always see people taking two minimum squads over one maximum squad. Even more so now that combat squadding costs CP

Rules reference for this please?

 

 

My mistake, that seems to be for the in-combat stratagem. The datasheet says you can still combat squad for free pre-deployment.

[Mandragola]

This option is probably less useful for troops but more useful for other stuff. Fast Attack and Heavy choices will be at a bit of a premium, particularly if people take a patrol as their detachment. The fact that units like Aggressors, Inceptors and Hellblasters can combat squad is currently a significant advantage over units like bladeguard, suppressors and eradicators that can't.

 

A unit of 10 guys isn't always a bad idea anyway. Even for units like intercessors you could make the case for taking a unit like a Sergeant with thunder hammer and 9 other guys. That's only 215 points and you get quite a lot of all-round utility, including the option of splitting 5 guys off to hide behind a wall on an objective somewhere. I find that big units are sometimes a good answer to hordes because you can throw a lot of attacks against them on a charge, before they can interrupt to hit you back. 10 man units don't suffer very badly from the rules on large units - it's 11+ where blast starts to become a real problem.

[chapter master 454]

Rule of thumb is MSU trumps max size squads. There are exceptions but generally for more elite armies, we don't bring units for weight of numbers, we bring units for weight of options.

 

Yes, the 2 tactical squads only take 3 losses and can't hide a character but those last two are the actual important part of the squad (sergeant with whatever gear and ether your special weapon or heavy weapon) on top of the fact that shooting both requires splitting fire that can and often does go askew (one volley overkills and mercs 5 guys when the other volley maybe dings the armour of one in the other squad).

It also means that you do get more grenades as well as those are once per squad. Minor but still, a benefit.

 

Large squads however have to contend with multiple issues now. If we talk tacticals as the corner stone of the this then to get the last weapon option unlocked you need to pay a hefty 90 point tax to get it where as that same tax could be spent to also get another sergeant. On top of the new coherency rules along with blast, these are all things you need to handle for a minor benefit of protecting characters (which can be done by vehicles, other units you will likely have them near because of their buff auras).

 

The problem with 40k is the lack of inter-game connection. One game is its own thing, no relation to another. This is why Crusade to me is interesting as it makes things like combat squads actually useful. Maybe you have a squad thats right for the job in your roster but you also need them to get some objectives done, combat squad allows that.

 

However in standard 40k, if you are trying to "horde" with marines, take primaris instead for being more cost effective troops (the points saved on the attack benefit is off-set by tacticals cost of taking their special weapons which ether matches or exceeds intercessors). Again, tacticals in my opinion are best used as a "Special weapons team" that has ObSec.